ISIS are pure evil.

Ash.J.Williams

cruasder777 wrote: »

Defenders ? You mean the Muslims who invaded Europe and came 150kms from Paris before being turned defeated, who invaded Spain, Sudan, Syria, Egypt, Malta etc. The Crusaders had every right to take back the Holy land from invasion.

Poor old Islam, its all Bush and Blairs fault according to the left :rolleyes:

they didn't help the situation

FTA69

conorhal wrote: »

the point people were trying to make is that 'Christians' that go around murdering for their faith do so in contravention to the teachings of their spiritual leader

This is exactly the same argument that some Muslims make though. The "oh, they're not really Muslims/Christians/Buddhists because they do XYZ". The reality is that Christianity and the Catholic Church presided over various horrors in history as well, often with full Papal and Church backing. I wouldn't say that those that killed the Amerindians or burned people at the stake or massacred Jews 'weren't Christians' though because Christ may have disapproved of what they did. The Qu'ran expressly forbids killing civilians in some of its passages and Muhammad also preached values of mercy and all that lark. However I've no doubt you could find bits in the Qu'ran that contradict that entirely as well at the same time. Religions like Islam and Christianity are a hugely mixed bag with plenty of interpretations, ISIS's interpretation is definitely a minority one and one that most Muslims want nothing to do with.

It seems that when you listen to what the 'moderates' from the religion of peace have to say it doesn't often sound that different to the extremists.

You'll have to expand on that. I've no doubt there are Muslim clerics who talk utter sh*te but the reality is that the majority of the Islamic world has starkly condemned ISIS and are fighting against it.

In fact the difference between a moderate and extremist, when it comes to Islam is often down to the a difference of opinion on how to achieve the same aim.

Most Muslims I know in Britain are too busy working and doing other things to bother establishing a caliphate to be honest. Every Muslim I know thinks they're nutters.

Gatling

Enough of the Rediculous aincent history religious lessons .
Nobody care who did what before and during the crusades .

FTA69

Shurimgreat wrote: »

You are missing the point. When Christians committed massacres and murders they were acting against the teachings of christianity and example of their main leader Jesus.

So what? This is exactly the sort of head-in-the-sand stuff I was saying about Muslims earlier on, it's a bit of a No True Scotsman argument to be honest. I'm sure Jesus was a lovely chap, it doesn't change the reality that Christianity very early on became associated with the power structures of Europe and later as an institution engaged in some fairly terrible stuff; and neither was it the work of a few outliers either but often the whole institutions of the religion. The Christian/Catholic Church came out with plenty of theological justifications for everything from Jew hunting to stake burning to slavery as well.

The whole Jesus v Muhammad stuff is a moot point as both religions have been well capable of getting blood on their hands and pulling verses from the holy books in order to justify it.

ISIS on the other hand are following the example of their main leader and example.

You can say that they represent true Islam all you want, but the reality is that today, and Muslims now, reject them en masse. They are a small and outlying group that has only come to prominence because of a vacuum created in Iraq and Syria (and Libya) by war.

The laws of Islam are encased in Sharia Law - It's a horrendous code of laws. Just a few weeks ago a woman was beheaded in Saudi Arabia under Sharia Law. Women and men can and are regularly stoned to death for adultry. Cutting off of hands is a common punishment.

I agree, it's a disgrace.

Wurzelbert

Gatling wrote: »

Enough of the Rediculous aincent history religious lessons .
Nobody care who did what before and during the crusades .

well, for a real understanding of the whole west vs. islam thing some knowledge of history and the whole background is essential...the general lack of such knowledge explains a lot of the nonsense people post around here and elsewhere...like when people actually think the whole mess started in 2003 or so...

Gatling

Wurzelbert wrote: »

well, for a real understanding of the whole west vs. islam thing some knowledge of history and the whole background is essential...the general lack of such knowledge explains a lot of the nonsense people post around here and elsewhere...like when people actually think the whole mess started in 2003 or so...

So lets go back centuries for more oh look who did that and who did this .
It's just a pure oh look what Christians did in aincent history to explain how and why isis is here .
sure why not go back to aincent Greece and have a proper history lesson of them vs us

Shurimgreat

FTA69 wrote: »

Shurimgreat wrote: »

So what? This is exactly the sort of head-in-the-sand stuff I was saying about Muslims earlier on, it's a bit of a No True Scotsman argument to be honest. I'm sure Jesus was a lovely chap, it doesn't change the reality that Christianity very early on became associated with the power structures of Europe and later as an institution engaged in some fairly terrible stuff; and neither was it the work of a few outliers either but often the whole institutions of the religion. The Christian/Catholic Church came out with plenty of theological justifications for everything from Jew hunting to stake burning to slavery as well.

The whole Jesus v Muhammad stuff is a moot point as both religions have been well capable of getting blood on their hands and pulling verses from the holy books in order to justify it.



You can say that they represent true Islam all you want, but the reality is that today, and Muslims now, reject them en masse. They are a small and outlying group that has only come to prominence because of a vacuum created in Iraq and Syria (and Libya) by war.



I agree, it's a disgrace.

Will you just give the whataboutery a rest? There are tons of threads about other religions and history and Iraq and all that.

This thread is about ISIS, who they are and what they are doing. It's really that simple.

Shurimgreat

Wurzelbert wrote: »

well, for a real understanding of the whole west vs. islam thing some knowledge of history and the whole background is essential...the general lack of such knowledge explains a lot of the nonsense people post around here and elsewhere...like when people actually think the whole mess started in 2003 or so...

And when the Nazis were on the march in the 1930s, people could have said yeh but what about the communists or what about Alexander the Great or the Romans, etc. In other words whataboutery of this nature is almost an apology for the actions of the Nazis, making out they weren't that bad compared to others. With enough whataboutery you can make anyone look positively fine. With enough whataboutery you could make ISIS seem like nice leftie liberals.

WheatenBriar

FTA69 wrote: »

ISIS are Muslims and come from an Islamic tradition. Simply saying "they're not Muslims" and sticking your fingers in your ears is dishonest b*llocks and unfortunately that's what some Muslims do when confronted with anything unpalatable that comes about due to the Islamic religion.

I don't get this at all,are you saying Islamic people who are not deviants are responsible for deviants like Isis?
They no more are than I am for someone who blows up someone because they don't agree with their politics
My and your responsibility for those ends at the call to the Garda or our vote on a jury or our lobbying of politicians who make laws

Similarly with religions in general or with God beliefs (without being in one of the user groups/religions)~people who go about their business abiding by their religious or non religious beliefs are not responsible for humans outside of them or in cults being deviants
The forces of law and order are (though these too are vulnerable to human failings) NOT the civilised majority

FTA69

Shurimgreat wrote: »

FTA69 wrote: »

Will you just give the whataboutery a rest? There are tons of threads about other religions and history and Iraq and all that.

This thread is about ISIS, who they are and what they are doing. It's really that simple.

It isn't whataboutery it's context. The point I'm making is that ISIS represent a tiny minority of Muslims. They are being actively fought on the ground by Muslims as varied as Kurdish nationalists to Hezbollah to the Shia Iraqi Army to the Sunni Syrian Army. They have been condemned by pretty much every Islamic theological body out there as well as nearly every government in the Islamic World. They do not represent Muslims and they don't represent the Islamic World.

Saying that they adequately represent the faith of a billion people across the world because Muhammad may have said XYZ 1300 hundred years ago is as arbitrary as saying that slavery and stake-burning is synonymous with modern Christianity because of stuff that happened centuries ago or because a group like the Lord's Resistance Army kills in the name of Christianity today.

However, portraying ISIS as somehow implicitly representative of all Muslims suits some people's agenda as they have it drilled into their heads that Muslims represent something to be feared and are akin to an invading horde as opposed to being largely normal people who get on with their lives both in Europe and abroad.

FTA69

WheatenBriar wrote: »

I don't get this at all,are you saying Islamic people who are not deviants are responsible for deviants like Isis?
They no more are than I am for someone who blows up someone because they don't agree with their politics
My and your responsibility for those ends at the call to the Garda or our vote on a jury or our lobbying of politicians who make laws

Similarly with religions in general or with God beliefs (without being in one of the user groups/religions)~people who go about their business abiding by their religious or non religious beliefs are not responsible for humans outside of them or in cults being deviants
The forces of law and order are (though these too are vulnerable to human failings) NOT the civilised majority

I'm saying that religions like Islam and Christianity are outmoded ways of thinking that often produce lunatics and facilitate an oppressive element in society across a variety of levels. States with religion at their heart e.g. Iran, Saudi, Ireland in the 50s (not comparing with the other two by the way) often stifle freedom of expression and development.

Shurimgreat

FTA69 wrote: »

It isn't whataboutery it's context. The point I'm making is that ISIS represent a tiny minority of Muslims. They are being actively fought on the ground by Muslims as varied as Kurdish nationalists to Hezbollah to the Shia Iraqi Army to the Sunni Syrian Army. They have been condemned by pretty much every Islamic theological body out there as well as nearly every government in the Islamic World. They do not represent Muslims and they don't represent the Islamic World.

Saying that they adequately represent the faith of a billion people across the world because Muhammad may have said XYZ 1300 hundred years ago is as arbitrary as saying that slavery and stake-burning is synonymous with modern Christianity because of stuff that happened centuries ago or because a group like the Lord's Resistance Army kills in the name of Christianity today.

However, portraying ISIS as somehow implicitly representative of all Muslims suits some people's agenda as they have it drilled into their heads that Muslims represent something to be feared and are akin to an invading horde as opposed to being largely normal people who get on with their lives both in Europe and abroad.

Let me see. They are in favour of Sharia Law. As are the nations of Iran and Saudi Arabia who implement pure Sharia Law or not far off it, punishements for adultry and so on. Several other countries too have diluted versions of Sharia Law.

They believe the crime for apostasy is death as do a lot of moderates.

They are violently opposed to homosexuality as do most religious regimes in the region and moderates.

No-one said they were representitive of all Muslims, stop putting words in people's mouths. Yes, many Muslims have rejected pure Islam. But it only takes a few thousand people with AK47s who follow it to the letter to make everyone's life a misery. Generally moderates don't carry guns, fanatics do. And anyone who says ISIS don't represent Islam clearly do not know Islam. They follow it to the absolute letter.

Wurzelbert

Shurimgreat wrote: »

And when the Nazis were on the march in the 1930s, people could have said yeh but what about the communists or what about Alexander the Great or the Romans, etc. In other words whataboutery of this nature is almost an apology for the actions of the Nazis, making out they weren't that bad compared to others. With enough whataboutery you can make anyone look positively fine. With enough whataboutery you could make ISIS seem like nice leftie liberals.

yeah, but you cannot understand isis if you see them as an isolated or singular entity somehow...it requires an understanding of the whole context...and i am definitely not using whataboutery in order to make isis seem like nice leftie liberals, and nobody has blamed me of that before...

Shurimgreat

Wurzelbert wrote: »

yeah, but you cannot understand isis if you see them as an isolated or singular entity somehow...it requires an understanding of the whole context...and i am definitely not using whataboutery in order to make isis seem like nice leftie liberals, and nobody has blamed me of that before...

The point I think you are trying to make is because some Christians carried out massacres in the past, its ok for ISIS to go around cutting people's heads off now? Am I right in thinking that's what you mean?

cruasder777

FTA69 wrote: »

Yeah. The Muslims who were, you know, defending the city from siege. Why did the crusaders kill all the Jews when they entered the city?

The Jews in Jerusalem fought with Islam.


Jerusalem is not a Muslim city. They only came through invasion.

cruasder777

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

they didn't help the situation

So we should have rolled over and let Islam take western Europe ? :rolleyes:


Nothing changes.

WheatenBriar

FTA69 wrote: »

I'm saying that religions like Islam and Christianity are outmoded ways of thinking that often produce lunatics and facilitate an oppressive element in society across a variety of levels. States with religion at their heart e.g. Iran, Saudi, Ireland in the 50s (not comparing with the other two by the way) often stifle freedom of expression and development.

But I'm saying it is people doing that
Humans creating or steering a power group and religions are a power group to implement their thinking
It's the humans creating the deviant cult that are the problem and by extension their members

In the west these deviant teachings are on the wane thanks to mass media
Hence censorship in Arab countries and real political policing to control the masses there

Shurimgreat

All I will say is its going to take a lot to defeat ISIS. Years probably.

And after they are defeated, dozens if not hundreds more extremists groups will be around all motivated to impose Islam and Sharia Law on various societies. Ultimately this is something of an unwinnable war which will go on for centuries.

Whenever you have a strong ideology whose main aim is to supplant democracy and freedoms with Sharia Law and restrictions, there is going to be major conflict.

As we have seen in Mosul in Iraq it only takes a few thousand fanatics with guns to control a population of 2 million moderates.

Wurzelbert

Shurimgreat wrote: »

The point I think you are trying to make is because some Christians carried out massacres in the past, its ok for ISIS to go around cutting people's heads off now? Am I right in thinking that's what you mean?

i think you misunderstood...what would make you think that’s what i meant? i simply said knowing the background helps understand isis better...if you care, check some of my older posts here and in other threads...

Zebra3

kstand wrote: »

Let them deal with it in the Middle East - what good would a western coalition do going in to resolve the cancer that is IS, the pedophile state? It was be used as propaganda. Let those odious people in Saudi solve it.

Maybe we can get somebody to bomb the UK, the paedophile state?

What an evil country where they tape politicians raping kids to control them.

RobYourBuilder

Zebra3 wrote: »

Maybe we can get somebody to bomb the UK, the paedophile state?

What an evil country where they tape politicians raping kids to control them.

Is there a country on earth where paedophiles didn't take advantage of their position and abuse vulnerable children?

kstand

IS - the ultimate paedophile state. Thousands of violent subhuman paedophiles trying to create a caliphate.

Wurzelbert

cruasder777 wrote: »

[...]
Jerusalem is not a Muslim city. They only came through invasion.

yup, same as constantinople and more or less all nowadays muslim cities and countries...

Gatling

Zebra3 wrote: »

Maybe we can get somebody to bomb the UK, the paedophile state?

What an evil country where they tape politicians raping kids to control them.

Don't forget about the Pakistanis muslims raping kids too

Zebra3

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

Is there a country on earth where paedophiles didn't take advantage of their position and abuse vulnerable children?

You missed my point. The state security services facilitated these rapes.

Gatling wrote: »

Don't forget about the Pakistanis muslims raping kids too

Do you mean the British muslims in Rotherham?

I haven't forgotten about them or all the white rapists in the BBC.

Mesrine65

kstand wrote: »

ISIS are a bunch of paedos as well as everything else. Though that's not a surprise. Child raping scum.

kstand wrote: »

Nor is paedophilia tolerated or condoned in Christianity for that matter.

kstand wrote: »

Why is anyone surprised what this paedophiles get up to? If they are happy to sell a toddler to another murderous paedo in the knowledge she will be raped then why are we surprised what they do to teenage boys and grown men?

kstand wrote: »

I see today that ISIS - the army of murdering pedophiles - is accused of harvesting body organs:

http://news.sky.com/story/1429646/islamic-state-accused-of-harvesting-organs

kstand wrote: »

Nobody should be surprised what this army of pedophiles does. IS - the pedophile state.

kstand wrote: »

Its time for the Arab world to sort its own problems. For too long the west has stepped in and has easily been portrayed as the oppressor.
Now we have an army of pedophiles trying to create a pedophile state in the Arab world in the name of a religion that was founded on the words and actions of a violent pedophile. The whole thing is odious - but it is not the Wests fight.
We have to get our own house in order first. We have a huge problem with the spread of that religion in Europe and beyond - thats what we have to deal with.

kstand wrote: »

Let them deal with it in the Middle East - what good would a western coalition do going in to resolve the cancer that is IS, the pedophile state? It was be used as propaganda. Let those odious people in Saudi solve it.

kstand wrote: »

IS - the ultimate paedophile state. Thousands of violent subhuman paedophiles trying to create a caliphate all in the name of the paedophile they worship above all else.

I think we get your point :P

FalconGirl

Funny how this has turned into a battle of which religion is worse whilst these barbaric nutjobs creep up to Europes shoreline. Please set your beliefs in sky fairies aside and try looking at things rationally for the good of the human race.

On a side note, where the hell are they getting their funding from considering they are buying brand new jeeps in Libya? To my knowledge they have only cropped up there quite recently.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2957344/ISIS-incredible-force-Europe-s-doorstep-Terrorists-Libya-beheaded-21-Egyptian-Christians-parade-fleet-brand-new-police-cars-cheering-children.html

Mesrine65

A small but steady flow of money to ISIS from rich individuals in the Gulf with Qataris the biggest suppliers.

Rich individuals have long served as 'angel investors' for the most violent militants in the region, providing the 'seed money' that helped launch ISIS & other jihadi groups.

Former U.S. Navy Admiral & NATO Supreme Commander James Stavridis says the cash flow from private donors is significant now & was even more significant in the early fund-raising done by ISIS & al Qaeda’s affiliate in Syria, the al-Nusrah Front.

U.S. officials suggest that the biggest share of the individual donations supporting ISIS & the most radical groups comes from Qatar rather than Saudi Arabia & that the Qatari government has done less to stop the flow than its neighbors in Saudi Arabia & the UAE

Gatling

Zebra3 wrote: »

You missed my point. The state security services facilitated these rapes.



Do you mean the British muslims in Rotherham?

I haven't forgotten about them or all the white rapists in the BBC.

They were been referred to as Pakistani muslims for a while .
But a rapist is rapist doesn't matter where there parents or grand parents came from .
The same for the BBC or others from operation YewTree .
doesn't matter what color or heritage either ,
But I've seen plenty of reports were Asians who have been born in the UK refer to themselfs as been Pakistani or Indian religious group before were British citizens 2nd.

Anyhow isis airforce is in the making bit of a Suprise

jobbridge4life

FalconGirl wrote: »

Funny how this has turned into a battle of which religion is worse whilst these barbaric nutjobs creep up to Europes shoreline. Please set your beliefs in sky fairies aside and try looking at things rationally for the good of the human race.

On a side note, where the hell are they getting their funding from considering they are buying brand new jeeps in Libya? To my knowledge they have only cropped up there quite recently.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2957344/ISIS-incredible-force-Europe-s-doorstep-Terrorists-Libya-beheaded-21-Egyptian-Christians-parade-fleet-brand-new-police-cars-cheering-children.html

There are four likely sources.

1. Illicit oil sales;
Global media has reported that Daesh has been selling oil under the radar. A massively lucrative business, especially if you didn't have to spend the money to establish the drilling/processing infrastructure.

2. Ransoms;
According to the media 'we don't negotiate with terrorists', the reality is far more complex. Many nations, including France and Italy have paid enormous sums to kidnappers in the past. I believe it would be beyond naive to imagine Daesh hasn't received large ransoms for its captives on at least some occasions. Logically speaking there would be little reason for them to continue to demand ransoms if they were not working at least some of the time.

3. Saudi Support;
Daesh like the overwhelming majority of Sunni extremists receive vast sums from Saudi sources to spread the facist Whabbi teachings. It is more than likely that some funds, of a significant volume, are still flowing from Saudi.

4. Plunder;
Daesh have captured large portions of territory and population. No doubt they are using this to their financial advantage, whether through extortion, outright plundering, 'taxation', 'tithing' etc. you can be sure they are milking their subjects to the maximum.