Government to reverse some Public Secor Pay cuts

Rightwing

They need to be clearing out the dead wood in the PS. That's 1 of the biggest threats facing the country.

NotInventedHere

Rightwing wrote: »

They need to be clearing out the dead wood in the PS. That's 1 of the biggest threats facing the country.

Maybe, but we will still have to pay them and their families social welfare and employ some people to replace them. I think reduced pay terms are the way forward. Leave the entry points to the payscales unchanged but reduce the top ends significantly.

Rightwing

NotInventedHere wrote: »

Maybe, but we will still have to pay them and their families social welfare and employ some people to replace them.

Maybe no need to replace them. I'd say the councils are grossly overstaffed. Then all the admin in the HSE, waste, we'd be far better if all of the dead wood was on welfare.

eigrod

The Pie Chart on the 7th slide in this presentation from yesterday's announcement gives a very clear picture of where our money goes.

Pay cuts outside of the Health & Education Sectors really make little or no difference to the overall picture.

http://www.finance.gov.ie/sites/default/files/End-September%202014%20Exchequer%20Returns%20Presentation.pdf

NotInventedHere

I remain unconvinced, as I have always suspected that the PS is used as way of subsidising the regions in this country without the government having to intervene directly through transfer payments.

Godge

Rightwing wrote: »

They need to be clearing out the dead wood in the PS. That's 1 of the biggest threats facing the country.

I wouldn't say that at all.

The biggest risk this country has would be a government taking the nutty suggestions made on internet boards seriously.

Rightwing

NotInventedHere wrote: »

I remain unconvinced, as I have always suspected that the PS is used as way of subsidising the regions in this country without the government having to intervene directly through transfer payments.

There's certainly truth in this. But then when the benchmarking came in, it caused havoc.

Godge

eigrod wrote: »

The Pie Chart on the 7th slide in this presentation from yesterday's announcement gives a very clear picture of where our money goes.

Pay cuts outside of the Health & Education Sectors really make little or no difference to the overall picture.

http://www.finance.gov.ie/sites/default/files/End-September%202014%20Exchequer%20Returns%20Presentation.pdf

That piechart underestimates the amount of social transfers quite significantly.

For a start, grant payments made under the education bill are under education, medical card expenditure is under health.

Godge

Rightwing wrote: »

There's certainly truth in this. But then when the benchmarking came in, it caused havoc.

There was havoc in this country in 2002? Was there really?

Rightwing

Godge wrote: »

There was havoc in this country in 2002? Was there really?

Now you have it. That's ultimately what led to the IMF bailout.

Godge

Rightwing wrote: »

Now you have it. That's ultimately what led to the IMF bailout.

The problems didn't really set in until a few years later. The froth of the boom became a problem from 2005 onwards. Benchmarking in 2002 had little to do with it.

Towards 2016, which provided in 2006 for yearly 5% increases in private sector pay pushed our competitiveness over the edge.

Rightwing

There's truth in that, but benchmarking was a bad idea, seeds were sown. Certainly reward performing workers, but giving everyone big pay increases...madness.

Godge

Rightwing wrote: »

There's truth in that, but benchmarking was a bad idea, seeds were sown. Certainly reward performing workers, but giving everyone big pay increases...madness.

Benchmarking is not a bad idea, just a badly implemented idea.

fliball123

Godge wrote: »

The problems didn't really set in until a few years later. The froth of the boom became a problem from 2005 onwards. Benchmarking in 2002 had little to do with it.

Towards 2016, which provided in 2006 for yearly 5% increases in private sector pay pushed our competitiveness over the edge.

Yeah but when PS pay and pensions and welfare more than doubled in the decade preceding this and was on the premise of the crazy amount of stamp duty being paid and was because the unions demanded it with crazy benchmarking exercises which seems to have been completely shredded from not only memory but all info on the exercise is gone. when the crisis happened we were on hook for very high ps pay , pensions and welfare. This is the reason why the country is in the crapper..not the banks..They did add to it to the tune of 64 billion but the rest all due to Bertie, social partnership and buying votes from those in the ps and on welfare.

Sheldons Brain

fliball123 wrote: »

This is the reason why the country is in the crapper..not the banks..They did add to it to the tune of 64 billion but the rest all due to Bertie, social partnership and buying votes from those in the ps and on welfare.

Not so. The damage done by the banks was not only the money they directly required, but the damage done to business by their carry on which ruined the country.

Peter Flynt

Public Sector workers are now poorly paid in Ireland.

It's time this was addressed.

barneystinson

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Public Sector workers are now poorly paid in Ireland.

It's time this was addressed.

Any empirical proof of that Peter?

As a PS worker, I find it very hard to argue with nonsense from the two unreasonable ends of a spectrum.

You really shouldn't make assertions like the above without a data source to support them.

Rightwing

barneystinson wrote: »

Any empirical proof of that Peter?

As a PS worker, I find it very hard to argue with nonsense from the two unreasonable ends of a spectrum.

You really shouldn't make assertions like the above without a data source to support them.

They need a rise alright :rolleyes:

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/public-sector-pay-is-48-more-than-private-283560.html
Public sector workers earn on average 48% more than those employed in the private sector, according to figures from the Central Statistics Office.
Public servants are paid an average of €919 per week, compared to €622 in the private sector.

Peter Flynt

Rightwing wrote: »

They need a rise alright :rolleyes:

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/public-sector-pay-is-48-more-than-private-283560.html
Public sector workers earn on average 48% more than those employed in the private sector, according to figures from the Central Statistics Office.
Public servants are paid an average of €919 per week, compared to €622 in the private sector.

What percentage of public sector workers have third level qualifications?

What percentage of private sector workers have third level qualifications?

Monife

barneystinson wrote: »

Any empirical proof of that Peter?

As a PS worker, I find it very hard to argue with nonsense from the two unreasonable ends of a spectrum.

You really shouldn't make assertions like the above without a data source to support them.

New entrants are low paid. I am on €21,345 per year before tax, PRSI, USC, PRD pension levy, pension contributions, compulsory social club and canteen contributions.

I don't see why new entrants should have to pay PRD when we are not going to get the same benefits as pre-2013 civil/public servants.

Rightwing

Peter Flynt wrote: »

What percentage of public sector workers have third level qualifications?

What percentage of private sector workers have third level qualifications?

3rd level qualifications? That was applicable about 30 years ago. Almost every tom, dick and harry have one nowadays.

Peter Flynt

Rightwing wrote: »

3rd level qualifications? That was applicable about 30 years ago. Almost every tom, dick and harry have one nowadays.

Answer the question.

Not every Tom, Dick & Harry has a third level qualification as only approx 50% go to third level.

Rightwing

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Answer the question.

Not every Tom, Dick & Harry has a third level qualification as only approx 50% go to third level.

There's people with degrees working in the likes of McDonalds.

I need to see output. 8 councils workers with Phds filling in 1 pothole wouldn't exactly impress me much.

Peter Flynt

Rightwing wrote: »

There's people with degrees working in the likes of McDonalds.

I need to see output. 8 councils workers with Phds filling in 1 pothole wouldn't exactly impress me much.

Quit talking out your arse.

Rightwing

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Quit talking out your arse.

I partly guessed that's the best you could do. As a previous poster said to you, try to concentrate on facts, not your own wishlists.

Peter Flynt

Rightwing wrote: »

I partly guessed that's the best you could do. As a previous poster said to you, try to concentrate on facts, not your own wishlists.

I'm still waiting for your answer.

Perhaps you'd like to tell me how much the German public sector worker pays into their state pension.

In Ireland it's approx 15% of salary on average (into a pension fund that doesn't exist - i.e. the state is helping itself)

You'd have a lot more credibility if you actually had facts to discuss. . . .Snooping through my old posts is probably your definition of research I suppose.

barneystinson

Peter Flynt wrote: »

I'm still waiting for your answer.

Perhaps you'd like to tell me how much the German public sector worker pays into their state pension.

In Ireland it's approx 15% of salary on average (into a pension fund that doesn't exist - i.e. the state is helping itself)

You'd have a lot more credibility if you actually had facts to discuss. . . .Snooping through my old posts is probably your definition of research I suppose.

Peter, you do realise you still haven't actually posted anything to support your assertion that "we" are now underpaid? Where are you getting this from?

And the PRD isn't a pension contribution; as a fellow PS worker paying it, I think you should think very carefully before basing any argument on it being a pension contribution.

Peter Flynt

barneystinson wrote: »

Peter, you do realise you still haven't actually posted anything to support your assertion that "we" are now underpaid? Where are you getting this from?

And the PRD isn't a pension contribution; as a fellow PS worker paying it, I think you should think very carefully before basing any argument on it being a pension contribution.

What do you think the P in "PRD" stands for?

As has been posted before. . . Teachers (the largest public profession) are paid far less in Ireland relative to other third level graduates in comparison to what occurs in other OECD countries

barneystinson

Monife wrote: »

New entrants are low paid. I am on €21,345 per year before tax, PRSI, USC, PRD pension levy, pension contributions, compulsory social club and canteen contributions.

I don't see why new entrants should have to pay PRD when we are not going to get the same benefits as pre-2013 civil/public servants.

There's a difference between underpaid and low paid.

Low paid, maybe so, since the above implies an hourly rate of within 30% - 35% of minimum wage, and a fair bit below the global average wage (for public or private).

But underpaid? That can only be objectively determined based on a comparison between your job and an equivalent one elsewhere. And in doing so, bear in mind the non-pay benefits such as flexi, shorter working year etc... as well as the guaranteed increments.

Also worth bearing in mind that the entry requirement for a CO is a leaving cert; just because the calibre of people applying recently is way beyond that doesn't mean the job should pay any more.

Peter Flynt

barneystinson wrote: »

There's a difference between underpaid and low paid.

Low paid, maybe so, since the above implies an hourly rate of within 30% - 35% of minimum wage, and a fair bit below the global average wage (for public or private).

But underpaid? That can only be objectively determined based on a comparison between your job and an equivalent one elsewhere. And in doing so, bear in mind the non-pay benefits such as flexi, shorter working year etc... as well as the guaranteed increments.

Also worth bearing in mind that the entry requirement for a CO is a leaving cert; just because the calibre of people applying recently is way beyond that doesn't mean the job should pay any more.

:rolleyes:

"I'll play the roll of a public sector worker telling everyone around how well paid they are"

barneystinson

Peter Flynt wrote: »

What do you think the P in "PRD" stands for?

As has been posted before. . . Teachers (the largest public profession) are paid far less in Ireland relative to other third level graduates in comparison to what occurs in other OECD countries

Peter, if it was a pension contribution it'd be called a pension contribution. What does the RD in PRD stand for?! It's a levy on the pay of serving PS workers' pay to go towards paying the pensions of current PS retirees. Also, the definitive proof that it's not a pension contribution is the fact that it's paid in by some classes of people who have no PS pension entitlement.

If you ever want it reversed you'd do well to stop calling it a pension contribution, since objectively everyone bar CO's get a very good bang for their buck on pension contributions.

Shady Tady

There are wasters in all sectors, wasters can survive in all sectors, neither sector can do without the other, people leave each sector to go to the other, the begrudgey here is pathetic !

Peter Flynt

barneystinson wrote: »

Peter, if it was a pension contribution it'd be called a pension contribution. What does the RD in PRD stand for?! It's a levy on the pay of serving PS workers' pay to go towards paying the pensions of current PS retirees. Also, the definitive proof that it's not a pension contribution is the fact that it's paid in by some classes of people who have no PS pension entitlement.

If you ever want it reversed you'd do well to stop calling it a pension contribution, since objectively everyone bar CO's get a very good bang for their buck on pension contributions.

There was a graph there that you quoted . . and er. . ignored.

Regarding the PRD - It's a pay cut on all public sector workers (as admitted by Lenihan when he introduced it).

It was introduced six months after the first 7.5% average pay cut.

They didn't want to introduce a second "pay cut" in six months . . .so they called it a "Pension Related Deduction" instead - A deduction based on your wage and contributing to your pension.

It is not paying for the pensions of retired PS workers for one very simple reason - there is NO PENSION FUND.

There was a pension fund - but that has long since been raided to bail out the private sector banks which have since been nationalised.

Peter Flynt

Shady Tady wrote: »

the begrudgey here is pathetic !

Indeed.

There are some people in this country who wake up desperately worried that surgeons, nurses, policeman, teachers etc. . .might get a pay rise after six years of cuts.

Rightwing

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Indeed.

There are some people in this country who wake up desperately worried that surgeons, nurses, policeman, teachers etc. . .might get a pay rise after six years of cuts.

A lot do.

We don't want another bailout.

Shady Tady

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Indeed.

There are some people in this country who wake up desperately worried that surgeons, nurses, policeman, teachers etc. . .might get a pay rise after six years of cuts.

One thing for sure with public sector workers is that they are paying tax, try getting a tradesman there days to do a job for other than cash its a complete joke!

Fr. Ned

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Indeed.

There are some people in this country who wake up desperately worried that surgeons, nurses, policeman, teachers etc. . .might get a pay rise after six years of cuts.

Have you not been given increments?

Fr. Ned

Shady Tady wrote: »

One thing for sure with public sector workers is that they are paying tax, try getting a tradesman there days to do a job for other than cash its a complete joke!

Is cash not legal tender in this country or something?

Shady Tady

Rightwing wrote: »

A lot do.

We don't want another bailout.

Of private sector banks and speculators!!

Fr. Ned

Shady Tady wrote: »

Of private sector banks and speculators!!

Are they the same banks that were 'regulated' by that lad Patrick Neary?
Who did he work for?

Rightwing

Shady Tady wrote: »

Of private sector banks and speculators!!

And the worrying thing is, despite these 'qualifications' I'm hearing about, the muppets being bailed out, blame Europe.

Fr. Ned

This lad...

https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CEQQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.herald.ie%2Fnews%2F630000-golden-handshake-for-the-bungling-banks-watchdog-pat-neary-27901281.html&ei=SFYxVJngDo3W7Qbl7YB4&usg=AFQjCNGqCvNXRS8E_5iQti9Ulcmtd9IAQg&bvm=bv.76802529,d.ZGU

Nice gig if you can get it.

Rightwing

Fr. Ned wrote: »

This lad...

https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CEQQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.herald.ie%2Fnews%2F630000-golden-handshake-for-the-bungling-banks-watchdog-pat-neary-27901281.html&ei=SFYxVJngDo3W7Qbl7YB4&usg=AFQjCNGqCvNXRS8E_5iQti9Ulcmtd9IAQg&bvm=bv.76802529,d.ZGU

Nice gig if you can get it.

As the ad goes ' because he was worth it'

Peter Flynt

Rightwing wrote: »

A lot do.

We don't want another bailout.

You're just a begrudger.

A failure in life.

Rightwing

Peter Flynt wrote: »

You're just a begrudger.

A failure in life.

You'd do well in a debate I suspect.

Peter Flynt

Rightwing wrote: »

You'd do well in a debate I suspect.

Who else do you hate?

Black People?

Immigrants?

Black people who are immigrants?

The unemployed?

I'd say the list is endless.

Rightwing

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Who else do you hate?

Black People?

Immigrants?

Black people who are immigrants?

The unemployed?

I'd say the list is endless.

None, but that's not to say I want to see endless amounts of them allowed into the country. Or folks sitting at home all day unwilling to help themselves.

Hope this helps.

Peter Flynt

Rightwing wrote: »

None, but . .

Just as I thought

Fr. Ned

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Just as I thought

Is the word 'but' banned or something on boards.ie?
Does it mean something that I don't know about?

Peter Flynt

Fr. Ned wrote: »

Is the word 'but' banned or something on boards.ie?
Does it mean something that I don't know about?

Er. . When someone uses the words "But" or "However" in a sentence you can usually ignore what came before it. . . . Especially when judging closet racists like RightWing.