Boss refused to pay me €20 overtime!

boardzz

The shop owner must be so glad to be rid of you

Billy86

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

He's the owner. Of course he can give references.

All depends on the contract he had as a franchisee. I only say this because I have worked for two separate companies in the past (albeit not franchises) only to find out after working there good few months that they do not allow anyone to give a reference for former employees under any circumstances, only statements of employment that list your job title and dates you worked there.

Mind you if he is as lazy as he is in keeping up with his former employees as he is tracking his current ones, I wouldn't hold my breath on him being the type bothered to give references even if he can.

Iwasfrozen

Billy86 wrote: »

All depends on the contract he had as a franchisee. I only say this because I have worked for two separate companies in the past (albeit not franchises) only to find out after working there good few months that they do not allow anyone to give a reference for former employees under any circumstances, only statements of employment that list your job title and dates you worked there.

Mind you if he is as lazy as he is in keeping up with his former employees as he is tracking his current ones, I wouldn't hold my breath on him being the type bothered to give references even if he can.

People who buy licenses with Centra actually do own the bricks and mortar of the business so I'd be very surprised if he couldn't give a reference.

Doesn't matter the point is the op actually screwed up any chance he had of getting a reference for the sake of 20 euro.

TGi666

Bad reference? The previous employer just has to be honest.
So if you were always there on time etc you have nowt to worry about, if you have trouble getting future employment always ask why and if you are ever told you were not selected as a positive reference was not obtained see your solicitor.
I wont go further as I do not deal woth employment but false reference can land somebody in a lot of hot water.

Billy86

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

People who buy licenses with Centra actually do own the bricks and mortar of the business so I'd be very surprised if he couldn't give a reference.

Doesn't matter the point is the op actually screwed up any chance he had of getting a reference for the sake of 20 euro.

Yes but the bricks and mortar are not related to the corporate structure, just because they own the land doesn't make it 100% their own entirely independent business with 'centra' simply written on a few labels and tags.

Beyond that as I mentioned if the guy had enough disregard for his staff to not bring it up with the other employee and to tell the OP to feel free to list up all the OT done, only to fob him off on it after lying about it coming in his final payslip, he doesn't exactly strike me as someone I would be hoping to honour any reference agreements with. He strikes me as very lazy, and lazy bosses give lazy references or more to the point, usually none at all beyond their legal requirements.

Iwasfrozen

TGi666 wrote: »

Bad reference? The previous employer just has to be honest.
So if you were always there on time etc you have nowt to worry about, if you have trouble getting future employment always ask why and if you are ever told you were not selected as a positive reference was not obtained see your solicitor.
I wont go further as I do not deal woth employment but false reference can land somebody in a lot of hot water.

Bad attitude is a bad reference. A person who expects to be paid for fifteen minutes overtime has a very bad attitude. I wouldn't hire someone like that.

Billy86

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Bad attitude is a bad reference. A person who expects to be paid for fifteen minutes overtime has a very bad attitude. I wouldn't hire someone like that.

Likewise you can say any employer than expects their staff to work without payment or even thanks is not an employer many people would look to work with.

Iwasfrozen

Billy86 wrote: »

Likewise you can say any employer than expects their staff to work without payment or even thanks is not an employer many people would look to work with.

That's fine but jobs have a much higher demand than supply. Basically that means employers can get away with much more than employees. Especially in low skilled jobs were a replacement is easy to find.

At the end of the day the employee is looking for a reference from the employer. Not the other way around.

cerastes

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

That's fine but jobs have a much higher demand than supply. Basically that means employers can get away with much more than employees. Especially in low skilled jobs were a replacement is easy to find.

At the end of the day the employee is looking for a reference from the employer. Not the other way around.

So that gives you the right to pay someone nothing where they are paid by the hour? that would add up over a year, would you be just as happy if they were taking stock and not paying??? I dont think so, so why would do you expect to to have their services for nothing?

Iwasfrozen

cerastes wrote: »

So that gives you the right to pay someone nothing where they are paid by the hour? that would add up over a year, would you be just as happy if they were taking stock and not paying??? I dont think so, so why would do you expect to to have their services for nothing?

Because 20 euro is not worth a bad reference. You don't want a prospective employer to think you're anal about overtime. That's a bad attitude.

john.han

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Because 20 euro is not worth a bad reference. You don't want a prospective employer to think you're anal about overtime. That's a bad attitude.

You can't give references that say someone has a bad attitude, it leaves you open to being sued for defamation.

Iwasfrozen

john.han wrote: »

You can't give references that say someone has a bad attitude, it leaves you open to being sued for defamation.

If he worked for me I wouldn't give him a reference at all because of his bad attitude.

Valetta

john.han wrote: »

You can't give references that say someone has a bad attitude, it leaves you open to being sued for defamation.

Of course you can if it's true and you're prepared to stand over it.

Billy86

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

If he worked for me I wouldn't give him a reference at all because of his bad attitude.

The difference here is that his employer explicitly told him to jot up the overtime prior, and explicitly told him that he would receive it in his final paycheck/with his p45.

If you pay an employee for overtime, then stop doing so and lie to them about it for weeks on end, it's not a bad attitude when that former employee gets annoyed that you explicitly and repeatedly lied to them without having any intention of honouring your initial promises... It's just human nature.

Had his boss told him in the first place that he could not afford to pay OT anymore and to sort it out with his coworker that would be different (though to be an actual useful owner of a business it won be better for him to also get involved, but whatever), but that is not what happened here.

I get what you mean about it being an employer's market, but things are not as bleak as they were a few years ago. Bad employers get bad employees, and this becomes truer and truer the better the market is. This guys staff obviously are not motivated, showing up late routinely and such, and as the owner that is his fault.

cerastes

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Because 20 euro is not worth a bad reference. You don't want a prospective employer to think you're anal about overtime. That's a bad attitude.

That doesnt answer what I asked you though,

If you're happy for them to provide a service for no pay
are you happy for someone to take stock or a service for no charge?
I wouldnt be happy to accept being shortchanged for hours over a long period of time and if I was leaving I might prefer to get a reference over such an amount, but if I wasnt leaving and was getting shortchanged all the time, I think that suggests the bad attitude is with the employer in this case for not dealing with the root of the problem and paying the person that was there and cut it from the pay of the person that wasnt.

Iwasfrozen

Billy86 wrote: »

The difference here is that his employer explicitly told him to jot up the overtime prior, and explicitly told him that he would receive it in his final paycheck/with his p45.

If you pay an employee for overtime, then stop doing so and lie to them about it for weeks on end, it's not a bad attitude when that former employee gets annoyed that you explicitly and repeatedly lied to them without having any intention of honouring your initial promises... It's just human nature.

Had his boss told him in the first place that he could not afford to pay OT anymore and to sort it out with his coworker that would be different (though to be an actual useful owner of a business it won be better for him to also get involved, but whatever), but that is not what happened here.

I get what you mean about it being an employer's market, but things are not as bleak as they were a few years ago. Bad employers get bad employees, and this becomes truer and truer the better the market is. This guys staff obviously are not motivated, showing up late routinely and such, and as the owner that is his fault.

Doesn't matter employers don't have to give a reference, if an employee had a bad attitude and was complaining about doing 15 mins of overtime I just wouldn't give him one, simple as that.

Billy86

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Doesn't matter employers don't have to give a reference, if an employee had a bad attitude and was complaining about doing 15 mins of overtime I just wouldn't give him one, simple as that.

Would you lie to him repeatedly though, telling him you would give him the OT, to jot it up etc, and finally that it would come with his p45? Or would you just tell him he isn't getting paid for OT and to take it up with the coworker who keeps coming in late?

That's the difference here in my mind. Someone lazy enough to do nothing about an issue like that which was upsetting an employee is a sign of bad management and ownership. Lying repeatedly about a solution because he was too lazy to tackle the issue in any way is even worse. This does not strike me as someone to rely on for a reference, regardless of how hard you worked in your time there, even if no issues like the one that arose did or not.

Again, if Centra's structure even allows him to give any references in the first place.

Iwasfrozen

cerastes wrote: »

That doesnt answer what I asked you though,

If you're happy for them to provide a service for no pay
are you happy for someone to take stock or a service for no charge?
I wouldnt be happy to accept being shortchanged for hours over a long period of time and if I was leaving I might prefer to get a reference over such an amount, but if I wasnt leaving and was getting shortchanged all the time, I think that suggests the bad attitude is with the employer in this case for not dealing with the root of the problem and paying the person that was there and cut it from the pay of the person that wasnt.

Am I happy for someone to take stock for no pay what do you mean?

If you weren't leaving then you'd bring it up with the manager and see what he'd have to say. But frankly I'd take a dim view of that sort of behaviour and would make a note of it for when he wants a reference down the line. In general employees aren't always going to get to finish on the dot they're supposed to. Unpaid overtime is the norm in most companies, if the person doesn't accept that then they're not suitable to be working there.

cerastes

So you have an unwritten rule then?
You don't pay staff when they go the extra mile so there is cover in the shop when there isn't someone to do the job whether theres a person scheduled or not and they pilfer, and you're ok with this and provide a reference, cool, can I have a job.

Personally if I was running a business employing people, Id be happy for them to go the extra mile and pay for what they do, as long as they put in good effort and are reasonable to deal with most of the time, how is not paying someone for the hours they do and tolerating another staff member creating problems and not dealing with it a good way of dealing with staff.

It's not like an employee that is constantly late, missing or gives short notice of problems, then demanding they are paid overtime for the odd time they do a few minutes extra.

Iwasfrozen

Billy86 wrote: »

Would you lie to him repeatedly though, telling him you would give him the OT, to jot it up etc, and finally that it would come with his p45? Or would you just tell him he isn't getting paid for OT and to take it up with the coworker who keeps coming in late?

That's the difference here in my mind. Someone lazy enough to do nothing about an issue like that which was upsetting an employee is a sign of bad management and ownership. Lying repeatedly about a solution because he was too lazy to tackle the issue in any way is even worse. This does not strike me as someone to rely on for a reference, regardless of how hard you worked in your time there, even if no issues like the one that arose did or not.

Again, if Centra's structure even allows him to give any references in the first place.

The latter. I'd state clearly overtime will not be paid and have him report to me every time his co-worker is late. Three times without a valid excuse and the co-worker would be out.

Iwasfrozen

cerastes wrote: »

So you have an unwritten rule then?
You don't pay staff when they go the extra mile so there is cover in the shop when there isn't someone to do the job whether theres a person scheduled or not and they pilfer, and you're ok with this and provide a reference, cool, can I have a job.

Personally if I was running a business employing people, Id be happy for them to go the extra mile and pay for what they do, as long as they put in good effort and are reasonable to deal with most of the time, how is not paying someone for the hours they do and tolerating another staff member creating problems and not dealing with it a good way of dealing with staff.

It's not like an employee that is constantly late, missing or gives short notice of problems, then demanding they are paid overtime for the odd time they do a few minutes extra.

If you left the shop that would be an automatic cessation of employment in most places I would imagine...

My view is simple, it's all about attitude, if an employee wants a reference they have to be willing to go the extra mile and if that means the odd 20 mins overtime here and there (which personally I wouldn't even class as overtime) then so be it. If an employee wants to do the bare minimum they are required and begrudge doing anything extra for free then I will do the same, no reference for them.

Tail Docker

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

If you left the shop that would be an automatic cessation of employment in most places I would imagine...

My view is simple, it's all about attitude, if an employee wants a reference they have to be willing to go the extra mile and if that means the odd 20 mins overtime here and there (which personally I wouldn't even class as overtime) then so be it. If an employee wants to do the bare minimum they are required and begrudge doing anything extra for free then I will do the same, no reference for them.

Agreed 100%. One lad working for us put €20 of diesel in a work van and looked for it back straight away in a strident fashion...despite every time he wanted something "for a small job at home" it being let slide without charge, over and over again...he sadly got let go fairly shortly after that, for being late, which was a pity. It cuts both ways, and you better believe it.

Billy86

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The latter. I'd state clearly overtime will not be paid and have him report to me every time his co-worker is late.

See that's fine, and I would agree if his employer had said this the first time around to him, even if it included the few bits of unpaid OT he had done to that point as it had not been authorised.

What really bother me is that his employer was a complete coward about it, being lazy and lying to his staff to the bitter end. That never ends well for the business either, especially I would imagine in those types of jobs as the OP is likely quite young, local, and knows a good few other staff members somewhat outside the job. That kind of stuff spreads around, and before long nobody wants to work for them.

Electric Boobs

2 stroke wrote: »

In your next employment, if someone isn't pulling their weight, kick ass don't cover for them.

I'd like to hear you elaborate on what exactly it is you mean by licking ass here!!!

VanDinkle

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

If you left the shop that would be an automatic cessation of employment in most places I would imagine...

My view is simple, it's all about attitude, if an employee wants a reference they have to be willing to go the extra mile and if that means the odd 20 mins overtime here and there (which personally I wouldn't even class as overtime) then so be it. If an employee wants to do the bare minimum they are required and begrudge doing anything extra for free then I will do the same, no reference for them.

You sound like a dream employer.

Only thing is your attitude would land you in front of too many employment tribunals. One or two of those and you would drop that brave persona, I'd do this, I'd do that. Honestly! That type of bully boy attitude does not make you come across well. The OP gets paid by the hour, so drop youre bare minimum bs.

To the OP, you are right to stick by youre principals. The shop owner sounds like a right idiot. The willingness to tackle the continuous late staff issue is probably outweighed by how little he is paying them and the probability of getting someone else to do late hours for feck all.

Go in and tell him as much. It may not get you your 20eur but you will gain self respect. It is more important to stand up to bully boy chancers exploiting young staff. Never ever take some of the deplorable responses here as acceptable practices.

Electric Boobs

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

If he worked for me I wouldn't give him a reference at all because of his bad attitude.

I don't think you and I would get on at all!

Iwasfrozen

VanDinkle wrote: »

You sound like a dream employer.

Only thing is your attitude would land you in front of too many employment tribunals. One or two of those and you would drop that brave persona, I'd do this, I'd do that. Honestly! That type of bully boy attitude does not make you come across well. The OP gets paid by the hour, so drop youre bare minimum bs.

To the OP, you are right to stick by youre principals. The shop owner sounds like a right idiot. The willingness to tackle the continuous late staff issue is probably outweighed by how little he is paying them and the probability of getting someone else to do late hours for feck all.

Go in and tell him as much. It may not get you your 20eur but you will gain self respect. It is more important to stand up to bully boy chancers exploiting young staff. Never ever take some of the deplorable responses here as acceptable practices.

For what? An employee is not entitled to a reference. I'd simply refuse to give them one. I've worked many hours for nothing, when I advance in my career and graduates are working under me I would expect the same from them, as I've said it's all about attitude.

Electric Boobs wrote: »

I don't think you and I would get on at all!

Probably not.

Gongoozler

Once you've done your time, you're done, and anything over that should be paid or given back. You wouldn't randomly drop by a neighbours and start painting their house would you? No because you're not a fcuking charity. Work done has to be paid. It's nothing to do with attitude.

TGi666

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Bad attitude is a bad reference. A person who expects to be paid for fifteen minutes overtime has a very bad attitude. I wouldn't hire someone like that.

As i have heard time and time again from employers/business owners if the employee took €2.16 (€8.65/4) out of the till once a week for a year it would amount to €112.45 that the shop is out of pocket/loss. No fair to the employer/business.

Now why is it expected in reverse?

The above amount for me is 2 weeks worth of grocery shopping or 2 full tanks of diesel or 2 months electricity.

Point is I would like to believe in gainful employment if overtime is expected in return for your job is that not bordering extortion?

I know the odd time situations happen where an employee will be late or a customer will take the piss a closing but when things like the OP's case happen regular its time to change the roster to allow a over lap to account for such instances.

Electric Boobs

What's even more annoying is that I already have serious trust issues as a person and this just doesn't help me become less paranoid!!