Boss refused to pay me €20 overtime!

VanDinkle

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

For what? An employee is not entitled to a reference. I'd simply refuse to give them one. I've worked many hours for nothing, when I advance in my career and graduates are working under me I would expect the same from them, as I've said it's all about attitude.

I dont know what youre business is but I doubt it is employing graduates in a convenience store who are paid a low hourly rate. Dont think you can apply your management style to every situation.

Not entitled to a reference! If someone worked in x company forx no of years, the least one would expect is a reference of some sort as it would be a noticeable gap on a cv/resume. Youre attitude of I decide who gets the references and not if applied in such an instance would land you in front of an employment tribunal sharpish who would in turn soften your cough toute suite.

I'd like to think that isnt really something you hold over youre employees.

Iwasfrozen

VanDinkle wrote: »

I dont know what youre business is but I doubt it is employing graduates in a convenience store who are paid a low hourly rate. Dont think you can apply your management style to every situation.

Not entitled to a reference! If someone worked in x company forx no of years, the least one would expect is a reference of some sort as it would be a noticeable gap on a cv/resume. Youre attitude of I decide who gets the references and not if applied in such an instance would land you in front of an employment tribunal sharpish who would in turn soften your cough toute suite.

I'd like to think that isnt really something you hold over youre employees.

An employee is not entitled to a reference, I have no problem giving a reference to an employee who is willing to go the extra mile if that means the odd 15 or 20 mins free overtime here and there (which I wouldn't even class as overtime) then so be it but if someone is just there to do the bare minimum required of them then I will do likewise.

TGi666 wrote: »

As i have heard time and time again from employers/business owners if the employee took €2.16 (€8.65/4) out of the till once a week for a year it would amount to €112.45 that the shop is out of pocket/loss. No fair to the employer/business.

Now why is it expected in reverse?

The above amount for me is 2 weeks worth of grocery shopping or 2 full tanks of diesel or 2 months electricity.

Point is I would like to believe in gainful employment if overtime is expected in return for your job is that not bordering extortion?

I know the odd time situations happen where an employee will be late or a customer will take the piss a closing but when things like the OP's case happen regular its time to change the roster to allow a over lap to account for such instances.

Well the simple answer being because jobs are scarce and the employee is looking for a good reference, not the other way around.

TGi666

Electric Boobs wrote: »

What's even more annoying is that I already have serious trust issues as a person and this just doesn't help me become less paranoid!!

Don't let it get to you, people like your former employer are not worth loosing sleep over.

In future I would play things by the book so if your next job is to make tea and someone asks for coffee say no but follow up with I would like to learn how to make coffee so I can move up the ladder/pay scale with my extra skills.

So if something like the above happens suggest working a extra hour to cover if that don't suit finish on time, let the boss know you have plans and let them deal with it.

Unless of course you plan a career in a medical profession or similar that requires you to be on call etc. :cool:

VanDinkle

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

An employee is not entitled to a reference, I have no problem giving a reference to an employee who is willing to go the extra mile if that means the odd 15 or 20 mins free overtime here and there (which I wouldn't even class as overtime) then so be it but if someone is just there to do the bare minimum required of them then I will do likewise.

Leaving aside that you have disregarded my previous post and would rather talk about your management style, we'll kick on. So someone who does the bare minimum would not be entitled to a reference in youre world as doing the job is not good enough. Stark admission. You might be surprised to learn that if you have given references in the past that it might be a legitimate expectation of an another departing employee to receive equal treatment. The failure to provide same might infer a problem with the employee which in turn leaves you open to a legal claim.

Tail Docker

Gongoozler wrote: »

Once you've done your time, you're done, and anything over that should be paid or given back. You wouldn't randomly drop by a neighbours and start painting their house would you? No because you're not a fcuking charity. Work done has to be paid. It's nothing to do with attitude.

Never, ever, even in your wildest moment, start working for yourself. The shock would kill you.

cerastes

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

An employee is not entitled to a reference. I'd simply refuse to give them one. I've worked many hours for nothing, when I advance in my career and graduates are working under me I would expect the same from them, as I've said it's all about attitude.
Probably not.

Thats correct, a reference is not an entitlement, but most people working in certain places are hardly advancing themselves, they are for the most part only there for the pay.
They are entitled to be paid for work and the odd 15 or 20 mins here or there can add up, few times a week could be an hour or more, if thats happening every week then its not on.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

An employee is not entitled to a reference, I have no problem giving a reference to an employee who is willing to go the extra mile if that means the odd 15 or 20 mins free overtime here and there (which I wouldn't even class as overtime) then so be it but if someone is just there to do the bare minimum required of them then I will do likewise.

Its either overtime or not, it may not be an overtime rate but its certainly not free and if thats whats required to get a reference then thats wrong.

Just because someone wants to get paid for the hours they work doesn't mean thats doing the bare minimum, doing the bare minimum could be just about turning up on time and being present, not that I agree with that but Ive seen people do it. Expecting to be paid for the hours you do is a basic entitlement.

If you wouldnt be happy someone putting their hand in the till or taking stock or services (which I dont condone), is a staff member stealing off you
then why are you ok with an employee not being paid for their time, which is the same thing, stealing off them.

If I caught an employee stealing Id be pretty unhappy with it (sackable), likewise an employer expecting to routinely not pay someone if they are willing to work extra, especially due to the failing of an unreliable routinely late employee is the same thing.

cerastes

Tail Docker wrote: »

Never, ever, even in your wildest moment, start working for yourself. The shock would kill you.

Thats a completely different situation though, the OP is working for someone else, ist not some start up its a convenience shop.

Iwasfrozen

VanDinkle wrote: »

Leaving aside that you have disregarded my previous post and would rather talk about your management style, we'll kick on. So someone who does the bare minimum would not be entitled to a reference in youre world as doing the job is not good enough. Stark admission. You might be surprised to learn that if you have given references in the past that it might be a legitimate expectation of an another departing employee to receive equal treatment. The failure to provide same might infer a problem with the employee which in turn leaves you open to a legal claim.

From citizensinformation.ie,

"There is however, no statutory entitlement to a reference in employment law in Ireland. This means that you do not have any automatic right to a reference from an employer when you leave employment. While employers are not obliged to provide references (or act as a referees), they may do so entirely at their own discretion."

There is no statuary instrument under which a former employee could expect a reference, they can bring the argument to a tribunal but it will be turned down.

FTA69

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

If you left the shop that would be an automatic cessation of employment in most places I would imagine...

My view is simple, it's all about attitude, if an employee wants a reference they have to be willing to go the extra mile and if that means the odd 20 mins overtime here and there (which personally I wouldn't even class as overtime) then so be it. If an employee wants to do the bare minimum they are required and begrudge doing anything extra for free then I will do the same, no reference for them.

And what if he comes in twenty minutes late for work? Sure it's only the odd time like. Something tells me you wouldn't be so cavalier about the few minutes then.

VanDinkle

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

From citizensinformation.ie,

"There is however, no statutory entitlement to a reference in employment law in Ireland. This means that you do not have any automatic right to a reference from an employer when you leave employment. While employers are not obliged to provide references (or act as a referees), they may do so entirely at their own discretion."

There is no statuary instrument under which a former employee could expect a reference, they can bring the argument to a tribunal but it will be turned down.

I would not be depending on the cab for legal advice. Again have you read my post ? Never mind eh. Anyway, Anne O'Connell an associate with William Fry wrote an excellent piece for the Businesspost that sums it up nicely. You should read it as the employer you claim to be. It will open your eyes and make all those notions you have treated as fact go away.

A good reference guide is vital for companies.

Iwasfrozen

FTA69 wrote: »

And what if he comes in twenty minutes late for work? Sure it's only the odd time like. Something tells me you wouldn't be so cavalier about the few minutes then.

If someone is coming in late for work then they're not fulfilling the basic terms of their employment. That's not the same thing as doing an extra few minutes after hours.

Iwasfrozen

VanDinkle wrote: »

I would not be depending on the cab for legal advice. Again have you read my post ? Never mind eh. Anyway, Anne O'Connell an associate with William Fry wrote an excellent piece for the Businesspost that sums it up nicely. You should read it as the employer you claim to be. It will open your eyes and make all those notions you have treated as fact go away.

To be honest, I'd rather take it to the tribunal than give a bad employee a good reference.

FTA69

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

If someone is coming in late for work then they're not fulfilling the basic terms of their employment. That's not the same thing as doing an extra few minutes after hours.

Well if it's in the basic terms of employment that someone gets paid by the hour, and yet they are racking up hours in unpaid work then that's hardly fulfilling a contract either. Your attitude is indicative of much of what's wrong with employers' attitudes; namely that the workers are simply money making machines to be squeezed as much as possible.

1) work twenty minutes unpaid = tough! you should count yourself lucky to have a job and if you complain then you're getting the sack and I'm going to f*ck you over on a reference.
2) come in twenty minutes late = breach of terms!

It's a load of sh*te really. Staying for ten minutes the odd time is part of working life, but continually being forced into unpaid work is just wrong and I don't see how you have such trouble admitting that.

TGi666

I think it is time to stop feeding the troll and hit the ignore button

Tail Docker

FTA69 wrote: »

Well if it's in the basic terms of employment that someone gets paid by the hour, and yet they are racking up hours in unpaid work then that's hardly fulfilling a contract either. Your attitude is indicative of much of what's wrong with employers' attitudes; namely that the workers are simply money making machines to be squeezed as much as possible.

1) work twenty minutes unpaid = tough! you should count yourself lucky to have a job and if you complain then you're getting the sack and I'm going to f*ck you over on a reference.
2) come in twenty minutes late = breach of terms!

It's a load of sh*te really. Staying for ten minutes the odd time is part of working life, but continually being forced into unpaid work is just wrong and I don't see how you have such trouble admitting that.

I'm guessing it's the whole Boards PC thing that is stopping more people from posting on this thread, because IRL, I see thousands of people working hours extra unpaid every day without a word about it. One company I deal with has several hundred employees that finish officially at 5 but many are there till close to 7 every evening, unpaid but fully expected to be done to get the work completed. Also, €20 and it's gone this far? Someones having a laugh.

Iwasfrozen

FTA69 wrote: »

Well if it's in the basic terms of employment that someone gets paid by the hour, and yet they are racking up hours in unpaid work then that's hardly fulfilling a contract either. Your attitude is indicative of much of what's wrong with employers' attitudes; namely that the workers are simply money making machines to be squeezed as much as possible.

1) work twenty minutes unpaid = tough! you should count yourself lucky to have a job and if you complain then you're getting the sack and I'm going to f*ck you over on a reference.
2) come in twenty minutes late = breach of terms!

It's a load of sh*te really. Staying for ten minutes the odd time is part of working life, but continually being forced into unpaid work is just wrong and I don't see how you have such trouble admitting that.

Well like I've said before it's all about attitude. Do you want to be the sort of professional who advances their career or do you just want to stay stuck in a rut?

If it's the former then go the extra mile to win your employers admiration and get a stunning reference, if it's the latter then do the minimum hours you need to but don't go looking for favors from your employer because they're going to do the bare minimum too.

VanDinkle

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

To be honest, I'd rather take it to the tribunal than give a bad employee a good reference.

That was never the argument. What you said is that you would not give someone who didnt go the extra mile a reference. That someone who did the bare minimum would not be entitled to one. That is not acceptable.

It is also an attitude that I dont understand and would never allow myself as it would be open to legitimate legal challenge.

Iwasfrozen

Tail Docker wrote: »

I'm guessing it's the whole Boards PC thing that is stopping more people from posting on this thread, because IRL, I see thousands of people working hours extra unpaid every day without a word about it. One company I deal with has several hundred employees that finish officially at 5 but many are there till close to 7 every evening, unpaid but fully expected to be done to get the work completed. Also, €20 and it's gone this far? Someones having a laugh.

This is the reality in every office I've worked in.

VanDinkle

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

This is the reality in every office I've worked in.

That makes it right I guess.

Whats your view on unions ?

Tail Docker

VanDinkle wrote: »

That makes it right I guess.

Whats your view on unions ?

No, it makes it reality. Don't let that stop you though. Also Unions? Great place to get a job, very cushy and the pay is amazing, especially if you are high up in one.

Billy86

Tail Docker wrote: »

No, it makes it reality. Don't let that stop you though. Also Unions? Great place to get a job, very cushy and the pay is amazing, especially if you are high up in one.

Just please dont complain about our most talented and qualified young people leaving the country in droves.

feargale

I've just stumbled on this thread and have read about a third of it, so I may be missing something.
Firstly, it beats me that so many of the posts are so unhelpful to OP. Why question the wisdom of how OP handled the situation? It is where it is.
The former employer seems to be a greedy bully. He can't understand OP making an issue out of a small amount, but sees no contradiction in himself contesting the same amount. It's probably fair to assume that the money means more to OP than to him.
OP, go through the small claims court. Your emails should supply you with adequate ammunition. There are minimal costs involved. Bugger his reference. Don't let him get away with it. If the absence of a reference arises in the future tell your prospective new employer the full story. If the latter swings his sympathy behind Mr. Scrooge, he's probably another skinflint, and not worth working for anyway.

Tail Docker

Billy86 wrote: »

Just please dont complain about our most talented and qualified young people leaving the country in droves.

I don't remember doing that. I doubt they're heading off over €20 they're owed either.

VanDinkle

TGi666 wrote: »

I think it is time to stop feeding the troll and hit the ignore button

I hope that was not refering to me as I aint. I actually felt so annoyed by the stuff that was being posted as fact that I actually signed up!

The Op may not have realised it but he has raised a bigger issue than the 20euro. Principal is key.

Never be afraid to challenge an employer. Always insist on the attitude in writing. Finally as you were paid previously for OT and given your employer said write down any further instances, that is a verbal agreeement. Now that he wishes to renage on that shows you that there are better places to work anyhow.

The other fella

Just take €20 from the till every so often and if he pulls you on it say "Grow up, its only the odd €20 here and there".

Billy86

Tail Docker wrote: »

I don't remember doing that. I doubt they're heading off over €20 they're owed either.

never said you did, I said please don't.

And you are right, they are not heading away over €20, but rather over better employment conditions and opportunities, in no small part.

Iwasfrozen

Billy86 wrote: »

never said you did, I said please don't.

And you are right, they are not heading away over €20, but rather over better employment conditions and opportunities, in no small part.

My advice is don't let the door hit them on the way out, travelling will be good for a person with an attitude like that. They will have their eyes opened when they see how things are done abroad.

yes there

Tail Docker wrote: »

I don't remember doing that. I doubt they're heading off over €20 they're owed either.

Haha, you have just handed rhe opposition the win with your defence. I hope you are not in the legal profession.

VanDinkle

Tail Docker wrote: »

No, it makes it reality. Don't let that stop you though. Also Unions? Great place to get a job, very cushy and the pay is amazing, especially if you are high up in one.

No. Its not reality. If people do not wish to work outside their terms and conditions, then you as an employer can do nothing about it, however high youre expectations may be that they will work extra hours for free.

yes there

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

My advice is don't let the door hit them on the way out, travelling will be good for a person with an attitude like that. They will have their eyes opened when they see how things are done abroad.

And you know this for certain? You are wise indeed. And bitter it would seem. You are banging on about the right attitude of a worker expecting them to go the extra mile, how about you improve your attitude and go the extra mile? After all it is your duty as a person in life to help others when you yourself have been successful in life. Call it being a nice person and not a bitter ****.