Irish Times - save me your sanctimonious claptrap

Thoie

Halloween Jack wrote: »

Tax systems are supposed to be progressive. Unless you actually want regressive taxes that take more from those who can afford least?

I would agree that 30% of the budget on social welfare is too high, but we are coming out (hopefully) of an almighty recession, which saw a huge jump in unemployment, it should reduce naturally if the economy keeps growing.

Isn't the vast majority of our social welfare spend going on pension payments, not unemployment assistance/benefit, or did I imagine that stat?

Halloween Jack

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

The problem with Ireland's tax system is that it lies massively disproportionately on workers, rather than property, capital, inheritance, and other forms of income. The trustifarians often end up writing for the IT.

Understandably this pisses off the people on 40k.

I would agree with most of that. Not exactly the left wing ideal it was referred to as.

I'd support a Tobin tax and maybe some sort of land value tax

Billy86

Macavity. wrote: »

I dislike the progressive tax system this country has, think it's unfair. One third of the government's expenditure goes towards social welfare which I also feel is too high, especially considering the amount of welfare fraud that goes on.

Before you leave, let me give you the list of countries that use a flat tax system, rather than progressive to choose from as your destination:

Abkhazia, Albania, Andorra, Anguilla, Belarus, Belize, Bolivia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bulgaria, East Timor, Estonia, Georgia, Greenland, Grenada, Guernsey, Guyana, Hungary, Jamaica, Jersey, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Latvia, Lithuania, Macedonia, Madagascar, Mauritius, Mongolia, Montenegro, Nagorno-Karabakh, Poland, Romania, Russia, St. Helena, Saudi Arabia, Serbia, Seychelles, South Ossetia, Transnistria, Trinidad and Tobago, Turkmenistan, Tuvalu... and Ukraine.

Hope you pick the right one, there are just so many quality options to decide between!

Halloween Jack

Thoie wrote: »

Isn't the vast majority of our social welfare spend going on pension payments, not unemployment assistance/benefit, or did I imagine that stat?

It's the largest component of the spend but not the vast majority. Jobseeker's payments are the second largest area of expenditure iirc, so say if we managed to get unemployment down from 14% to 5% your going to see a decent reduction in the total budget.

Hotfail.com

Billy86 wrote: »

Before you leave, let me give you the list of countries that use a flat tax system, rather than progressive to choose from as your destination:

Abkhazia, Albania, Andorra, Anguilla, Belarus, Belize, Bolivia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bulgaria, East Timor, Estonia, Georgia, Greenland, Grenada, Guernsey, Guyana, Hungary, Jamaica, Jersey, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Latvia, Lithuania, Macedonia, Madagascar, Mauritius, Mongolia, Montenegro, Nagorno-Karabakh, Poland, Romania, Russia, St. Helena, Saudi Arabia, Serbia, Seychelles, South Ossetia, Transnistria, Trinidad and Tobago, Turkmenistan, Tuvalu... and Ukraine.

Hope you pick the right one, there are just so many quality options to decide between!

They look like the wise man's choice.

AlekSmart

conorh91 wrote: »

What does this have to do with the RIA or the direct provision system generally?

It's a procedural issue. It concerns ORAC, the RAT, the Superior Courts and the Minister for Justice. \

Direct Provision is a perfectly acceptable system in its own right. The legal system which processes applications, judicial reviews, and ministerial discretion is the imperfect bit.

If the US Supreme Court can lay down strict rules on applications and oral hearings (30 minutes maximum), I do not see why the Protection System in this country cannot.

The Irish asylum system was/is perfectly functional for a Country of our size and capabilities.

However,what many did'nt factor in was the ability of members of the "Legal System" to rapidly recognize the capability of the system to provide long running and substantial income streams to their practices.

This allowed the Legal Profession itself to eventually eat it's own carcass,with only reality of the Izevbekhai case finally slowing up that gallop

There's a shed load of Statistics here.....

http://www.ria.gov.ie/en/RIA/Pages/Statistics

......enough to provide endless hours of satisfaction for those who appreciate brevity.

We have a functioning Asylum/Refugee determination and adjudication procedure,but we as a culture don't really have any appreciation for imposing laws or of fostering any great respect for them,a trait widely recognized and played upon by a great many over the years.

And,yes,we will fund voluntary returns......

http://www.ireland.iom.int/voluntary-assisted-return-reintegration-programme-0

But,no,there's no gratification to be had from admitting to these things,it's far more satisfying for Journalists like Sorcha Pollack to pen "exposes" such as the one to hand.

http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/a-form-of-torture-life-for-asylum-seekers-in-direct-provision-1.1814026

Hadija was 10 when her older brother and father were shot dead in her home in Koyama, south Somalia. A few years later, her mother was attacked and died shortly afterwards. With no family left, Hadija travelled to Kenya and secured passage abroad. She was 16, had no idea where she was going and couldn’t speak a word of English.

"Secured passage abroad"...no other elaboration as to how, or from whom, to what destination,and how much it cost.

Hadija arrived in Dublin in February 2006. She was sent by the Department of Justice to Chester House in Phibsborough, Dublin, a centre for underage asylum seekers, where she was treated very well. She started learning English, and a few months later began to study for her Leaving Cert Applied.

Another classic trait of Torture,recognised worldwide,the Leaving Cert Applied,a uniquely Irish definition of Cruel & Unusual punishment perhaps.

Sue Conlon, chief executive of the Irish Refugee Council, worries about the long-term psychological implications for children growing up in these centres. She also highlights the long-term financial costs for the State of supporting refugees suffering from mental-health issues later in life.

“What will their sense of who they are as people and their self-worth be? We haven’t yet seen the long-term consequences of direct provision.”

Indeed,and good to see Sue putting down an early marker for continuance of State Support in a new and as yet emerging sector.

No mention of the reality that much of the "Long Termism" referred to in this article,centres on the inability of the State to either refuse admittance,or to deport after the Refugee Application process has been exhausted.

Virtually endless and vexatious appeals up to and including direct to Ministers,all seeking to frustrate and impede the Asylum process and largely succeeding.

http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/ireland/article676966.ece

http://hudoc.echr.coe.int/sites/eng/pages/search.aspx?i=001-105081#{%22itemid%22:[%22001-105081%22]}

http://metroeireann.com/article/ceemex-bows-out-after-more-than,3610

http://obiakpere.blogspot.ie/2006/12/this-nigerian-uses-law-to-help.html

Soft-Option Journalism,of the highest order and ill befitting a paper considering itself as an organ of Record.

Still...it probably keeps a certain air of "Justice" about the Office ?

conorh91

AlekSmart wrote: »

The Irish asylum system was/is perfectly functional for a Country of our size and capabilities.

However,what many did'nt factor in was the ability of members of the "Legal System" to rapidly recognize the capability of the system to provide long running and substantial income streams to their practices.

This allowed the Legal Profession itself to eventually eat it's own carcass,with only reality of the Izevbekhai case finally slowing up that gallop

There's a shed load of Statistics here.....

http://www.ria.gov.ie/en/RIA/Pages/Statistics

......enough to provide endless hours of satisfaction for those who appreciate brevity.

We have a functioning Asylum/Refugee determination and adjudication procedure,but we as a culture don't really have any appreciation for imposing laws or of fostering any great respect for them,a trait widely recognized and played upon by a great many over the years.

And,yes,we will fund voluntary returns......

http://www.ireland.iom.int/voluntary-assisted-return-reintegration-programme-0

But,no,there's no gratification to be had from admitting to these things,it's far more satisfying for Journalists like Sorcha Pollack to pen "exposes" such as the one to hand.

http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/a-form-of-torture-life-for-asylum-seekers-in-direct-provision-1.1814026



"Secured passage abroad"...no other elaboration as to how, or from whom, to what destination,and how much it cost.



Another classic trait of Torture,recognised worldwide,the Leaving Cert Applied,a uniquely Irish definition of Cruel & Unusual punishment perhaps.



Indeed,and good to see Sue putting down an early marker for continuance of State Support in a new and as yet emerging sector.

No mention of the reality that much of the "Long Termism" referred to in this article,centres on the inability of the State to either refuse admittance,or to deport after the Refugee Application process has been exhausted.

Virtually endless and vexatious appeals up to and including direct to Ministers,all seeking to frustrate and impede the Asylum process and largely succeeding.

http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/ireland/article676966.ece

http://hudoc.echr.coe.int/sites/eng/pages/search.aspx?i=001-105081#{%22itemid%22:[%22001-105081%22]}

http://metroeireann.com/article/ceemex-bows-out-after-more-than,3610

http://obiakpere.blogspot.ie/2006/12/this-nigerian-uses-law-to-help.html

Soft-Option Journalism,of the highest order and ill befitting a paper considering itself as an organ of Record.

Still...it probably keeps a certain air of "Justice" about the Office ?

don't quote me in your odd anti-immigrant rants in future, thanks.

I might be opposed to liberalizing the current RIA regime but I certainly do not ascribe to your far more extreme beliefs, which appear contrary to the Rule of Law.

ardle1

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

The problem with Ireland's tax system is that it lies massively disproportionately on workers, rather than property, capital, inheritance, and other forms of income. The trustifarians often end up writing for the IT.

Understandably this pisses off the people on 40k.

Nahhhhhhhh, what pisses people off is paying taxes, and watching Hospitals closing

suicide_circus

Direct provision needs to end.

Applicants need to get temp work visas while they are being processed and the system needs to be drastically sped up which could be achieved by removing the appeals process. Applicants should sign in once a week while working. Applicants should have no access to SW. Those found to have a genuine humanitarian need for asylum should be helped in any way possible, those found to be abusing the asylum process for economic reasons should be deported and barred from entering the country for 10 years.

Nodin

porsche959 wrote: »

Vincent Browne is a man who applauded Mugabe's ethnic cleansing of white farmers in Zimbabwe. That's on the record.

As...............

Link?

AlekSmart wrote:

This allowed the Legal Profession itself to eventually eat it's own carcass,with only reality of the Izevbekhai case...............

And he's off.

suicide_circus

The legal profession would never exploit people in an unfortunate situation as a means to milk the state. The very idea!

I know this might seem an awfully left-field solution but what we could do is let them work and rent a place that actually fit for habitation outside the 3 months that we call summer.

It's mental I know.

Nodin

Deleted User wrote: »

I know this might seem an awfully left-field solution but what we could do is let them work and rent a place that actually fit for habitation outside the 3 months that we call summer.

It's mental I know.

'robbin our jobs' 'economic migrants' 'the state payin for it' 'Pamela izhebhekai','like Kampala in 20 years' 'you in your ivory tower''huts were good enough for them at home''don't like it they can go back''why did they come here anyway?''we should do it like australia'

Nodin

Nodin wrote: »

'robbin our jobs' 'economic migrants' 'the state payin for it' 'Pamela izhebhekai','like Kampala in 20 years' 'you in your ivory tower''huts were good enough for them at home''don't like it they can go back''why did they come here anyway?''we should do it like australia'

Them Aussies with their racial tolerance have the right idea.

Nodin

Deleted User wrote: »

Them Aussies with their racial tolerance have the right idea.

'political correctness gone mad' 'send them to the aran Islands'

Nodin

Nodin wrote: »

'political correctness gone mad' 'send them to the aran Islands'

Let's not get mental, Tasmania will do.

All those ****ing lazy leeches coming over here. Selling everything they have, leaving all their family behind, holding onto a raft to get across the Mediterranean, just so they can sit in a palace over here while claiming the dole. Makes me sick.

Nodin

Deleted User wrote: »

All those ****ing lazy leeches coming over here. Selling everything they have, leaving all their family behind, holding onto a raft to get across the Mediterranean, just so they can sit in a palace over here while claiming the dole. Makes me sick.

'could afford to get here eh?' 'why,how,eh?'

Nodin

Nodin wrote: »

'could afford to get here eh?' 'why,how,eh?'

The ones who can afford to get here shouldn't be here. Simple as.

Phoebas

Macavity. wrote: »

We do however have a left wing tax system, which I intend in having no part in.

You have no intention of contributing to it, but you have no problem benefiting from it.

No Pants

Robroy36 wrote: »

This morning I was left trembling with rage by the Marxists in the Irish Times.

Sorry, I can't take anything else you have said seriously due to the above sentence. Have a word with yourself, then come back to us.

Hootanany

Hes right.

Robroy36

No Pants wrote: »

Sorry, I can't take anything else you have said seriously due to the above sentence. Have a word with yourself, then come back to us.

Buddy, your opinion means nothing to me. Jog on.

Billy86

Robroy36 wrote: »

Buddy, your opinion means nothing to me. Jog on.

What if he prefers to drive, or cycle?

I'm guessing he chooses to cycle, the commie.

Robroy36

AlekSmart wrote: »

The Irish asylum system was/is perfectly functional for a Country of our size and capabilities.

However,what many did'nt factor in was the ability of members of the "Legal System" to rapidly recognize the capability of the system to provide long running and substantial income streams to their practices.

This allowed the Legal Profession itself to eventually eat it's own carcass,with only reality of the Izevbekhai case finally slowing up that gallop

There's a shed load of Statistics here.....

http://www.ria.gov.ie/en/RIA/Pages/Statistics

......enough to provide endless hours of satisfaction for those who appreciate brevity.

We have a functioning Asylum/Refugee determination and adjudication procedure,but we as a culture don't really have any appreciation for imposing laws or of fostering any great respect for them,a trait widely recognized and played upon by a great many over the years.

And,yes,we will fund voluntary returns......

http://www.ireland.iom.int/voluntary-assisted-return-reintegration-programme-0

But,no,there's no gratification to be had from admitting to these things,it's far more satisfying for Journalists like Sorcha Pollack to pen "exposes" such as the one to hand.

http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/a-form-of-torture-life-for-asylum-seekers-in-direct-provision-1.1814026



"Secured passage abroad"...no other elaboration as to how, or from whom, to what destination,and how much it cost.



Another classic trait of Torture,recognised worldwide,the Leaving Cert Applied,a uniquely Irish definition of Cruel & Unusual punishment perhaps.



Indeed,and good to see Sue putting down an early marker for continuance of State Support in a new and as yet emerging sector.

No mention of the reality that much of the "Long Termism" referred to in this article,centres on the inability of the State to either refuse admittance,or to deport after the Refugee Application process has been exhausted.

Virtually endless and vexatious appeals up to and including direct to Ministers,all seeking to frustrate and impede the Asylum process and largely succeeding.

http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/ireland/article676966.ece

http://hudoc.echr.coe.int/sites/eng/pages/search.aspx?i=001-105081#{%22itemid%22:[%22001-105081%22]}

http://metroeireann.com/article/ceemex-bows-out-after-more-than,3610

http://obiakpere.blogspot.ie/2006/12/this-nigerian-uses-law-to-help.html

Soft-Option Journalism,of the highest order and ill befitting a paper considering itself as an organ of Record.

Still...it probably keeps a certain air of "Justice" about the Office ?

Fantastic post.

No Pants

Robroy36 wrote: »

Buddy, your opinion means nothing to me. Jog on.

Why are you posting on a discussion forum if the opinion of others means nothing to you?

Billy86

No Pants wrote: »

Why are you posting on a discussion forum if the opinion of others means nothing to you?

Because nothing gets the blood flowing in the morning like that good old tttrrreeeemmmmmbbbblllliiinnnggg rage!

AlekSmart

conorh91 wrote: »

Don't quote me in your odd anti-immigrant rants in future, thanks.

I might be opposed to liberalizing the current RIA regime but I certainly do not ascribe to your far more extreme beliefs, which appear contrary to the Rule of Law.

Apologies,I totally missed the "Do Not Quote" warning.

Odd they may well be,but whether my beliefs are contrary to the "Rule" of Law or not is a moot point.

Having faith in the pre-existing and long functioning Irish Asylum system would not,at first glance,appear to contravene any law ?

If it's Illegal to Have a substantial disregard and dislike for those who,clinically and in a businesslike manner,attacked this system over a protracted period up until Irelands financial demise,then I'll readily enter a plea.

The notion that many of these well publicised cases revolve around thousands of repressed individuals who "just managed" to reach Irish shores under their own steam and without outside guidance and manipulation remains equally odd to me.

As a "for example",take the Ezeani case.

I readily accept that there are some posters who,like Albert Reynolds,prefer brevity in all things,but be assured a good read will broaden any horizon

http://www.courts.ie/supremecourt/sclibrary3.nsf/%28WebFiles%29/E3E3E53F573DC9C2802578CC0033B69A/$FILE/Ezeani%20%26%20Anor%20v%20MJLR.pdf

Quite a whizz-bang tale indeed and reminiscent of an RTE Drama production by times....

What is more relevant to the issue of how our State's functions tend to freeze when robustly challenged is the fact that Mr Ezeani is only departing the stage (temporarily,it seems)

The Supreme Court JR,not exactly favourable to the Gentleman,delivered in 2011,yet two years later it appears the same fellow is still involved in commercial activity ...

http://metroeireann.com/article/ceemex-bows-out-after-more-than,3610

As to his own plans, Ezeani said he will take a break after “a hectic decade” of legal work and may engage in further studies. However, he indicated he is likely to return to the legal profession at some point.

A "hectic decade" it certainly was.

The ability of a country such as Ireland to successfully admit,resource and integrate those seeking Asylum can only viewed alongside the reality of our pre-existing Social norms.

Perhaps,flooding the workplace with large numbers of undocumented and compliant individuals,may well be beneficial to Isle of Man registered Companies such as Greyhound Recycling,but I don't see many other existing societal groups benefitting from that.

The Irish Asylum and Refugee systems were never intended to be the "Mass Market" systems which many appear to now require as a pre-requisite for Liberal status.

What we had was a functional,and sympathetically crafted system which worked well for many hundreds of people over the decades.

I believe that Irelands Asylum and Refugee systems remain appropriate for the the Country as it stands....however legal that belief may be !

amdublin

The op's post makes me so sad for humankind and all our fellow humans.

AlekSmart

amdublin wrote: »

The op's post makes me so sad for humankind and all our fellow humans.

But emotion is good...your Sadness will be balanced by another fellow-human's Happiness to some degree or other....thats how it kinda goes...cycles of emotions...on and on into infinity.....and beyond

mikemac1

Mr Ezeani did well for himself. Alek's link to the Sunday Times mentions he is a king :cool:

Ezeani, who was crowned king of the Igbo tribe in Ireland in 2008 by the Nigerian community, has represented hundreds of immigrants and asylum seekers

Send him to Kerry!

crockholm

mikemac1 wrote: »

Mr Ezeani did well for himself. Alek's link to the Sunday Times mentions he is a king :cool:



Send him to Kerry!

At least wait until our king in Killorglin abdicates first.

Billy86

mikemac1 wrote: »

Mr Ezeani did well for himself. Alek's link to the Sunday Times mentions he is a king :cool:



Send him to Kerry!

His first name isn't Okonkwo by chance?

conorh91

AlekSmart wrote: »

Odd they may well be,but whether my beliefs are contrary to the "Rule" of Law or not is a moot point.

Having faith in the pre-existing and long functioning Irish Asylum system would not,at first glance,appear to contravene any law ?

If it's Illegal to Have a substantial disregard and dislike for those who,clinically and in a businesslike manner,attacked this system over a protracted period up until Irelands financial demise,then I'll readily enter a plea.

With respect, do you even know what the rule of law means?

It isn't a generic phrase, it has real meaning. Among other things, it means that justice should be administered with regard to fair procedures and due process, and that the decisions of quasi-judicial bodies, as well as the Minister for Justice, should be subject to review.

Although I would like to see a much faster turnaround for the many, many spurious asylum claims, we cannot simply start turning people away at the airports, or not allowing them seek leave to judicially review decisions which may be erroneous in law or in fact.

I'd propose a full-time Refugee Appeals Tribunal with dedicated, trained decision-makers appointed by the Judicial Appointments Board, an increased policy of settlements before cases come on for Judicial Review, tighter rules on oral submissions in JR applications, more judges appointed to the High Court asylum list (perhaps on a temporary basis), and litigants being pursued for costs on foot on unsuccessful JR/appeals. Direct Porvision should be maintained.

We can deal with the problem of bogus asylum and subsidiary protection claims whilst still observing the rule of law and meeting our human rights obligations, and it doesn't have to break the bank. It might even save money.

homemadecider

Geuze wrote: »

90% of these asylum-seekers are bogus.
The Minister has said so, confirming what we all know.
http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/PR07000171

It is very unfair to keep people here for years and years going through a legal process.
They should not be allowed past the airport / port, and should be turned around within 24hrs.

Where would you suggest they go? For a family from South Sudan whose entire community has had to flee their homes in fear of violence, where should you send them back to? For a woman from Syria who has seen her whole family killed in a brutal civil war, where should you send her back to? For a man from DRC who has fled due to political persecution in fear of his life, where would you send him back to?

To say that 90% of refugee claims are bogus only goes to show that you have no idea what you're talking about.

KingOfFairview

Robroy36 wrote: »

The above is not fine. It is not just and at times it makes me tremble with rage.

This morning I was left trembling with rage by the Marxists in the Irish Times.

Listen mate, do us a fukk1ng favour, don't post absolutely tantalising stuff like this without going into more description of the scene. For how long did you tremble? Would it have looked, to a bystander, as if you were having a seizure or just trying to shake a pebble out of your shoe? Was your face red, coated with spittle and sweating? Was there a build up, or did you just explode in trembling as soon as you read the article? Throw us a bone here and tell us exactly how this went down

On the off chance you aren't exaggerating by about ten trillion %, you should go to the doctor and get checked for serious psychological and/or physical issues.

KingOfFairview

I want everyone who reads this thread to take a moment to visualise someone actually trembling with rage (to the extent they went off to write about it, mentioning it twice). When you do so, you'll have a better go at calibrating exactly how seriously you should take the OP.

mikemac1

homemadecider wrote: »

Where would you suggest they go? For a family from South Sudan whose entire community has had to flee their homes in fear of violence, where should you send them back to? For a woman from Syria who has seen her whole family killed in a brutal civil war, where should you send her back to? For a man from DRC who has fled due to political persecution in fear of his life, where would you send him back to?

The family from Sudan can go to the UK

The man from DRC can go to Belgium

The colonial powers pillaged these countries and drew the perfect straight lines that many countries have as borders. They can step up

KingOfFairview

mikemac1 wrote: »

The family from Sudan can go to the UK

The man from DRC can go to Belgium

The colonial powers pillaged these countries and drew the perfect straight lines that many countries have as borders. They can step up

Sudan was never ruled directly as part of the British Empire, rather it was part of Egypt which was in theory independent but a de facto British protectorate

ardle1

Nodin wrote: »

Bit strange he can't answer questions on it. Even stranger that the article on the times does not say what he claims, nor does there seem to be an editorial along that line. True, his post is on the mark if you share a certain xenophobic resentment to those who have come here seeking asylum and have absolutely zero concern for their well being.

so your basically saying that, 'you are not angry that the people of Ireland are being ABSOLUTELY taxed to the hilt, and to the point that the Government seem to not want all the great Irish workers to have any disposable income in their wallet as hard cash! And yet they continue to 'SQUANDER' our hard earned tax €s on the upkeep and maintenance of said refugees..
NOWWW wether you agree or not with this situation isn't relevant(we have no choice).. But if you are not angry about it! Well then you are on a different wavelength than me.

Hospitals closing left right and centre, not half enough Guards on the streets, emigration probably highest levels since the bloody famine etc etc...... DON'T make me laugh.....

efb

ardle1 wrote: »

so your basically saying that, 'you are not angry that the people of Ireland are being ABSOLUTELY taxed to the hilt, and to the point that the Government seem to not want all the great Irish workers to have any disposable income in their wallet as hard cash! And yet they continue to 'SQUANDER' our hard earned tax €s on the upkeep and maintenance of said refugees..
NOWWW wether you agree or not with this situation isn't relevant(we have no choice).. But if you are not angry about it! Well then you are on a different wavelength than me.

Hospitals closing left right and centre, not half enough Guards on the streets, emigration probably highest levels since the bloody famine etc etc...... DON'T make me laugh.....

Where's all these hospitals closing? Crime is down. Emigration was far worse in the 50's and 80's

ardle1

efb wrote: »

Where's all these hospitals closing? Crime is down. Emigration was far worse in the 50's and 80's

Hospitals have closed and services are still being cut, check the stats on emigration, oh and crime is down is it! Well no excuse for a 'thin' Garda line.

conorh91

homemadecider wrote: »

To say that 90% of refugee claims are bogus only goes to show that you have no idea what you're talking about.

Do you?

That 90% are only the hearings that had prima facie merit, and which proceeded to substantive hearing.

There was another subset of cases where 96% of 'fast-tracked applications' were refused, usually for being manifestly without any basis.

In all cases, given the low burden of proof which the Applicant is expected to discharge ("reasonable likelihood), these figures of 90% and 96% rejection rates are staggering.

The fact that the standard of proof, which is "reasonable likelihood" was not discharged, means that there was no reasonable likelihood of the Applicant facing persecution in 90% and 96% of cases of the relevant categories.

I think we can, with a high degree of certainty, describe such cases as "bogus"

I will never understand why so many people dislike facing up to this. Do you realize how much damage these bogus claims are doing to those in genuine need of protection?

Annasopra

conorh91 wrote: »

Do you?

That 90% are only the hearings that had prima facie merit, and which proceeded to substantive hearing.

There was another subset of cases where 96% of 'fast-tracked applications' were refused, usually for being manifestly without any basis.

In all cases, given the low burden of proof which the Applicant is expected to discharge ("reasonable likelihood), these figures of 90% and 96% rejection rates are staggering.

The fact that the standard of proof, which is "reasonable likelihood" was not discharged, means that there was no reasonable likelihood of the Applicant facing persecution in 90% and 96% of cases of the relevant categories.

I think we can, with a high degree of certainty, describe such cases as "bogus"

I will never understand why so many people dislike facing up to this. Do you realize how much damage these bogus claims are doing to those in genuine need of protection?

The 90% figure is from nearly 10 years ago

conorh91

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

The 90% figure is from nearly 10 years ago

I didn't see the link and have not been referring to that link. It was 89% last year, I've been rounding it up to 90% (for substantive decisions). Fast-tracked decisions last year had a 96% rejection rate.

Nodin

ardle1 wrote: »

so your basically saying that, 'you are not angry that the people of Ireland are being ABSOLUTELY taxed to the hilt, and to the point that the Government seem to not want all the great Irish workers to have any disposable income in their wallet as hard cash! And yet they continue to 'SQUANDER' our hard earned tax €s on the upkeep and maintenance of said refugees.......

I don't agree that's the situation.

Shakespeare's Sister

Some of the taxes and levies (for bailout purposes) anger me. The teeny-tiny cost of just non grotty accommodation for asylum-seekers doesn't.

Life is a ****ing lottery. By a twist of fate we could be under attack from ISIS right now or trying to piece together our lives in Gaza, rather than on our laptops in our safe homes. Let's share a bit of that luck.

efb

ardle1 wrote: »

Hospitals have closed and services are still being cut, check the stats on emigration, oh and crime is down is it! Well no excuse for a 'thin' Garda line.

where have the hospitals closed???

conorh91

Magaggie wrote: »

Some of the taxes and levies (for bailout purposes) anger me. The teeny-tiny cost of just non grotty accommodation for asylum-seekers doesn't.

Life is a ****ing lottery. By a twist of fate we could be under attack from ISIS right now or trying to piece together our lives in Gaza, rather than on our laptops in our safe homes. Let's share a bit of that luck.

I agree with your sentiments. This money is not going to ruin the country. In terms of the national budget, €55 million is pretty small.

But we should always seek efficiency in the spending of public money.

If there is no reasonable likelihood that 90%, sometimes 96% of applicants are at risk, then we need to figure out whether spending €55 million per annum in hopeless cases is a wise idea, instead of just aiming for quicker turnaround times.

if €55 million were used to paint the railings in front of Leinster House, or donated to a home for abandoned kittens, or given to buying billions of marbles for sick children, we would all be frustrated, even though these projects in themselves are deserving of public funds.

So we should not console ourselves with the fact that €55 million doesn't go very far in life. It's a legitimate observation, but we should still care how €55 million of public money is spent, and we should also care about the implications for inefficiency spending on the vulnerable, genuine applicants who miss out on funding.

kurtainsider

Macavity. wrote: »

Tax and welfare system in this country is a joke, in fairness. Soon as I get my degree I'm getting out of this socialist cesspit.

That's the way to do it Macavity. Take full advantage of what the taxpayer provides and then do a runner in case you might be asked to contribute something.

Anyway - where are you off to? You wouldn't consider sticking around until you had paid something towards the cost of your education even?