Irish Times - save me your sanctimonious claptrap

Billy86

ardle1 wrote: »

Hospitals have closed and services are still being cut, check the stats on emigration, oh and crime is down is it! Well no excuse for a 'thin' Garda line.

Which hospitals have closed?

Crime going down is shows that the system is working, or at least "less not working" than what was being done previous. 'Boots on the ground' does not always directly correlate.

As for emigration. Check this out, that red line. Makes me wonder why people complaining about immigrants never pay attention to the red line.



Why is that?

Macavity.

kurtainsider wrote: »

Anyway - where are you off to? You wouldn't consider sticking around until you had paid something towards the cost of your education even?

My family have more than covered my education through the excessive taxes they pay, and have subsidized plenty of other people's educations as well. They seem to be okay with that, I'm not and do not intend on living here when I am older. Aside from that, as nice a country as it is over here I want to travel.

Billy86

Just a reminder, here's the list of flat tax countries for you to go to once you're done freeloading off the state, and mammy and daddy.

Abkhazia, Albania, Andorra, Anguilla, Belarus, Belize, Bolivia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bulgaria, East Timor, Estonia, Georgia, Greenland, Grenada, Guernsey, Guyana, Hungary, Jamaica, Jersey, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Latvia, Lithuania, Macedonia, Madagascar, Mauritius, Mongolia, Montenegro, Nagorno-Karabakh, Poland, Romania, Russia, St. Helena, Saudi Arabia, Serbia, Seychelles, South Ossetia, Transnistria, Trinidad and Tobago, Turkmenistan, Tuvalu... and Ukraine.

Herb Powell

The biggest irony of course is that the "if they don't like it they should leave" crowd have far more power to do just that themselves than any asylum seeker does.

The op was laughable. Sorry, but just typical, fear-mongering, hateful cheap shots all round.

Macavity.

Billy86 wrote: »

Just a reminder, here's the list of flat tax countries for you to go to once you're done freeloading off the state, and mammy and daddy.

Abkhazia, Albania, Andorra, Anguilla, Belarus, Belize, Bolivia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bulgaria, East Timor, Estonia, Georgia, Greenland, Grenada, Guernsey, Guyana, Hungary, Jamaica, Jersey, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Latvia, Lithuania, Macedonia, Madagascar, Mauritius, Mongolia, Montenegro, Nagorno-Karabakh, Poland, Romania, Russia, St. Helena, Saudi Arabia, Serbia, Seychelles, South Ossetia, Transnistria, Trinidad and Tobago, Turkmenistan, Tuvalu... and Ukraine.

Incredibly ignorant post. Some beautiful countries mentioned there, with a lot of history. Obviously certain ones would be out of the question due to the current situations over there at the moment.

As for the "freeloading off Mammy and Daddy" comment I've had a job since I was 16. It's a real shame discussions on here can't be had without getting personal and nasty, genuinely a shame.

kurtainsider

Macavity. wrote: »

My family have more than covered my education through the excessive taxes they pay, and have subsidized plenty of other people's educations as well. They seem to be okay with that, I'm not and do not intend on living here when I am older. Aside from that, as nice a country as it is over here I want to travel.

Your families taxes are their taxes, they aren't your taxes. They don't cover your obligation to pay your way - don't you understand that?

Anyway - there are plenty of poeple in society who are carried along on the taxes of others. That's how western style societies work - the socialist cesspits as you refer to them. If you're a recipient of taxpayer provided benefits at least acknowledge it. Don't delude yourself that you've covered your expenses.

If you intend travelling by all means go and enjoy it - however you shouldn't slag off the system that provided you with a university degree at a small fraction of the actual cost that allows you to travel to another country and presumably get a good, well paying job.

Billy86

Macavity. wrote: »

Incredibly ignorant post. Some beautiful countries mentioned there, with a lot of history. Obviously certain ones would be out of the question due to the current situations over there at the moment.

As for the "freeloading off Mammy and Daddy" comment I've had a job since I was 16. It's a real shame discussions on here can't be had without getting personal and nasty, genuinely a shame.

Just terribly nasty and mean and stuff, of course of course. Nice to learn you've been working since you were 16 though of course, any reason you failed to mention that beforehand? Seems odd. I'm assuming it was full time or paid well enough to start paying back what your parents, and the system you grew up and we're education are and raised in at a decent rate so. Because most jobs held by teenagers in school tend to be taxed very little, thanks to... tax breaks, tax credits and a progressive tax system!

And nobody said some of those countries lack history or scenery, but I hate to be the one to inform you that does not equate to opportunities to prosper, which seems to be your focus. Even in countries with progressive tax systems, you will tend to find Ireland is comfortably on the lower end of 'developed' economies.

h2005

Macavity. wrote: »

My family have more than covered my education through the excessive taxes they pay, and have subsidized plenty of other people's educations as well. They seem to be okay with that, I'm not and do not intend on living here when I am older. Aside from that, as nice a country as it is over here I want to travel.

So you actually are a net beneficiary. Why was that so hard to write?

ardle1

efb wrote: »

where have the hospitals closed???

Closed beds, closed services, ambulances by-passing Hospitals with sick people on board=(in my mind) CLOSED HOSPITALS

Lenin Skynard

Are there any statistics available on how our health service has moved over the last few decades?

It seems like James Reilly presided over a massive downsizing of the health system, while we had a pretty big population growth. All the while, he overspent by billions and removed services for the elderly and disabled.

He was fired from his job as we all know, I'd love if some boffin reading this thread crunches the numbers for us. Reilly should be held accountable down to the last cent.

Annasopra

ardle1 wrote: »

Closed beds, closed services, ambulances by-passing Hospitals with sick people on board=(in my mind) CLOSED HOSPITALS

Your mind is playing tricks.

conorhal

Nodin wrote: »

"The Minister" has not been the minister for many years now and that article is 9 years old. We currently have one of the lowest acceptance rates in Western Europe.

You're very circumspect with the truth Nodin.

About 200 failed asylum seekers were deported last year, the numbers that we actually remmove from the state (excepting those refused entry in the first place are pitiful. In a typically Irish solition to an Irish problem, rather then fixing the legal gravy train, streamlining the system and deporting failed asylum seekers wer give most leave to remain, but then this is Ireland, we specialize in rewarding failure and if you can blag your way into the country there is an 80% chance that even if your not entitled to be here you can remain here.

The reality is this, there are 50 million officially recognised refugees in the world currently, the highest number since WW2.
Should we import them all into Europe? There are probably twice that number that would like to come here as economic migrants if they got the opportunity.
And say we do, will that solve the various crisis around the world, or next year will there be another 50 million knocking?

The one fact that the open doors nutters refuse to recognise is that there is an unending supply of migrants that will only stop coming when we descend into the kind of third world craphole they’re leaving, and the limp wristed response to this crisis is a joke.
The asylum process was not designed to cope with mass migration, we need new ways to address the issue in the countries of origin, repeating the same failed policies has to come to an end now.

Phoebas

Macavity. wrote: »

My family have more than covered my education through the excessive taxes they pay, and have subsidized plenty of other people's educations as well

Mammy and Daddy pay taxes so you shouldnt have too.

I've heard it all now.

discus

And if his parents are anything like my parents, they had no issue supporting me or the rest of my siblings by paying taxes and sending us off abroad.

This country shows no loyalty from the top down, why should we show it from the bottom up? My parents wouldn't be happy watching me try to settle in Ireland, when there are fairer countrys to live in.

Nodin

conorhal wrote: »

You're very circumspect with the truth Nodin.

About 200 failed asylum seekers were deported last year, the numbers that we actually remmove from the state (excepting those refused entry in the first place are pitiful. In a typically Irish solition to an Irish problem, rather then fixing the legal gravy train, streamlining the system and deporting failed asylum seekers wer give most leave to remain, but then this is Ireland, we specialize in rewarding failure and if you can blag your way into the country there is an 80% chance that even if your not entitled to be here you can remain here.

.

Yeah, we're all doomed. Source for that 80% remark?

KingOfFairview

Macavity. wrote: »

Incredibly ignorant post. Some beautiful countries mentioned there, with a lot of history. Obviously certain ones would be out of the question due to the current situations over there at the moment.

As for the "freeloading off Mammy and Daddy" comment I've had a job since I was 16. It's a real shame discussions on here can't be had without getting personal and nasty, genuinely a shame.

Its enough to make you tremble with rage

Macavity.

kurtainsider wrote: »

however you shouldn't slag off the system that provided you with a university degree at a small fraction of the actual cost that allows you to travel to another country and presumably get a good, well paying job.

I am grateful to my family for my education, not the state. If we were in a country without subsidized college fees I would still have gone on to third level. Although, I don't see how whether or not someone is a beneficiary or not is really relevant. This sort of implies that low income earners' opinions on this subject shouldn't even be considered?

The current system of free fees is actually hindering third level education. Irish universities don't have the required funds and are lagging behind the likes of US colleges. We've also adapted a culture where everyone ends up going on to third level when they aren't particular suited or in some cases bothered, which is evident through the high number of drop outs.

Billy86 wrote: »

Just terribly nasty and mean and stuff, of course of course. Nice to learn you've been working since you were 16 though of course, any reason you failed to mention that beforehand? Seems odd.

How on earth would that seem odd to you? Why would I mention that at all, the only reason I chose to in the end was because of your petty remark, which by the way contributed nothing to this discussion.

Because most jobs held by teenagers in school tend to be taxed very little, thanks to... tax breaks, tax credits and a progressive tax system!

FWIW, I totally would be fine with them being taxed at the same rate.

Phoebas wrote: »

Mammy and Daddy pay taxes so you shouldnt have too.

I've heard it all now.

Stop paraphrasing me. I'm happy to pay taxes, not happy to pay extortionate levels however.

KingOfFairview wrote: »

Its enough to make you tremble with rage

Haha, not at all. I'm happy to have a civilized discussion and am enjoying the debate but would obviously prefer if people could refrain from getting personal. The poster kurtainsider, to be fair, has made some good points.

Nodin

Macavity. wrote: »

...............

The current system of free fees is actually hindering third level education. Irish universities don't have the required funds and are lagging behind the likes of US colleges. We've also adapted a culture where everyone ends up going on to third level when they aren't particular suited or in some cases bothered, which is evident through the high number of drop outs.
..................

"At for-profit colleges, the problems are even worse. More than three-quarters of for-profit students fail to earn a degree after six years, according to a 2011 report, and for-profit students are even more likely to default on their loans than regular students."
http://thinkprogress.org/education/2012/03/28/453632/half-college-students-drop-out/

Dear o dear.

Macavity.

Nodin wrote: »

"At for-profit colleges, the problems are even worse. More than three-quarters of for-profit students fail to earn a degree after six years, according to a 2011 report, and for-profit students are even more likely to default on their loans than regular students."
http://thinkprogress.org/education/2012/03/28/453632/half-college-students-drop-out/

Dear o dear.

Interesting article, but the fact still remains that Irish universities are sliding down the world rankings due to insufficient funds.

Billy86

Macavity. wrote: »

How on earth would that seem odd to you? Why would I mention that at all, the only reason I chose to in the end was because of your petty remark, which by the way contributed nothing to this discussion.

FWIW, I totally would be fine with them being taxed at the same rate.

Stop paraphrasing me. I'm happy to pay taxes, not happy to pay extortionate levels however.

It was odd because people had brought up you being a net beneficiary on a number of occasions, and had asked what you put into the system, your answer to which was that your parents had put into the system. Only when it was mentioned that this changed nothing in terms of you being a net beneficiary did you make claim to have been working since sixteen.

Our taxes are far from extortionate compared to most developed world economies. Again your options are very limited if you want to find a country that offers much in the line of comparable opportunity with a noticeably lower upper tax rate, if at all. Never mind flat tax nations, just a lower maximum rate of tax.

Nodin

Macavity. wrote: »

Interesting article, but the fact still remains that Irish universities are sliding down the world rankings due to insufficient funds.

And the answer to that is not nessecarily fees.

Chinasea

ardle1 wrote: »

Closed beds, closed services, ambulances by-passing Hospitals with sick people on board=(in my mind) CLOSED HOSPITALS

We can all do the red:

1st World problems if you ask me:

Once again, an international survey shows Ireland to be a world leader in drinking, with a consumption of 11.6 litres of alcohol per adult in 2012 well above the OECD average of nine litres!!!

The study ranks Ireland fourth-highest of 34 countries for smoking,

Irish hospital consultants are still among the highest-paid in the world, despite the cuts imposed during the economic downturn, according to new figures from the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development. And there is a bloody shortage of them.

RDM_83 again

conorh91 wrote: »

With respect, do you even know what the rule of law means?

It isn't a generic phrase, it has real meaning. Among other things, it means that justice should be administered with regard to fair procedures and due process, and that the decisions of quasi-judicial bodies, as well as the Minister for Justice, should be subject to review.

Although I would like to see a much faster turnaround for the many, many spurious asylum claims, we cannot simply start turning people away at the airports, or not allowing them seek leave to judicially review decisions which may be erroneous in law or in fact.

I'd propose a full-time Refugee Appeals Tribunal with dedicated, trained decision-makers appointed by the Judicial Appointments Board, an increased policy of settlements before cases come on for Judicial Review, tighter rules on oral submissions in JR applications, more judges appointed to the High Court asylum list (perhaps on a temporary basis), and litigants being pursued for costs on foot on unsuccessful JR/appeals. Direct Porvision should be maintained.

We can deal with the problem of bogus asylum and subsidiary protection claims whilst still observing the rule of law and meeting our human rights obligations, and it doesn't have to break the bank. It might even save money.

I've argued before that we should actually have a tighter application of the Dublin Regulation by an automatic dismissal of any asylum claim that does not produce travel documentation or a police report of theft due to our geographic location.
Here is part of the rules warning from politics that explains how this can be justified.

PLEASE READ THE FOLLOWING

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dublin Regulation - A Factsheet

If you have applied for asylum in an EU country covered by the Dublin Regulation and wish to have your application considered here, it is not certain that you are entitled to do so. Another country covered by the Dublin Regulation may be responsible for considering your application. As a result, you may have to go to that country. Following are some circumstances under which another country may consider your application:

1. if you have received a visa or a residence permit from another country covered by the Dublin Regulation
2. if you have illegally entered a country covered by the Dublin Regulation
3. if you have already applied for asylum in another country covered by the Dublin Regulation
4. if your family has already received residence permits in another EU Member State


Point 2 highlighted by me.

You cannot be deemed to have illegally entered a country until you clear immigration.

If you enter an EU country on a transit flight to another country, you DO NOT have to go through immigration.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanctuary in Ireland, Perspectives on Asylum Law and Policy By Ursula Fraser, Colin J. Harvey

Simple movement through a transit area without leaving it, does not count as regular entry into the first member state but if an application for asylum is made while in the transit zone, the member state where the transit zone is bears responsibility (Article 7 The Dublin Convention)
This has not changed for the updated Dublin Regulation.

This results in a situation where its practically impossible for an applicant to not have either a police report for stolen documentation or the documentation itself (since the only time that loss of documents could occur is within the secure area of a major international hub airport which are ridiculously heavily policed areas.)

I'm curious about peoples opinions on this idea, I believe that its actually the ethical position to take if the savings that would result from this policy are passed on to foreign aid in particular to organizations that service internal refugees or those in directly neighboring countries.
To traverse your way across Europe requires comparatively substantial resources, it is those that only have the resources to relocate a far smaller distance that are the ones that are most at risk (and they make up the vast vast majority of all refugees

KingOfFairview

This article continues in today's Irish Marxist Times for anyone who is out for an oul tremble

stmol32

Robroy36 wrote: »

Buddy, your opinion means nothing to me. Jog on.

If other posters opinion means nothing to you then why did you start a thread?

Actually why do you even have a boards account for that matter?

Galwayguy35

A start on speeding up a decision on whether someone should be granted asylum would be to cut out the appeals process, it's ridiculous that it can be dragged through the courts costing the taxpayer thousands or in one case hundreds of thousands only to find out she was a liar.

People may say a lot about the Australian system but it's fast and efficient.

Nodin

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

A start on speeding up a decision on whether someone should be granted asylum would be to cut out the appeals process, it's ridiculous that it can be dragged through the courts costing the taxpayer thousands or in one case hundreds of thousands only to find out she was a liar..

....and cutting out the appeals process would leave the system open to abuse.

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

People may say a lot about the Austraian system but it's fast and efficient.

Easier to list things people won't say about it, words like "fair" "humane", "decent".

Galwayguy35

Nodin wrote: »

....and cutting out the appeals process would leave the system open to abuse.

The system is already open to abuse, as in the case I mentioned, that half a million could have been put to a lot better use.

Nodin

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

The system is already open to abuse, as in the case I mentioned, that half a million could have been put to a lot better use.

I'm sure it could, but setting up an intrinsically unfair system doesn't really get us anywhere.

crockholm

OP,you can thank your lucky stars that you were born in Ireland,for despite all the cheats,frauds and scammers that go through the Irish system,it is managable,for now.

If you were in Italy or Spain and had to deal with their migrant problems,you could possibly explode.

conorh91

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

A start on speeding up a decision on whether someone should be granted asylum would be to cut out the appeals process, it's ridiculous that it can be dragged through the courts costing the taxpayer thousands or in one case hundreds of thousands only to find out she was a liar.

People may say a lot about the Australian system but it's fast and efficient.

Clamping down on the Superior Courts' ability to supervise and ensure fairness in public administration would be bad for the country as a whole. Our courts have some of the strongest 'reviewability' powers in the EU, and with good reason: very often they've been the public's champion against prejudiced, irresponsible, egomaniac state agencies and politicians.

We can tackle the cost of the appeals process by settling with appellants where there is even a prima facie case to be made against the Refugee Appeals Tribunal. The matter will then revert to the RAT , as soon as possible for a fresh hearing (a much faster, cheaper process), as opposed to sitting on a High Court Asylum list for 3 years.

It's popular to call for an end to the appeals process, but considering how important Judicial Review has been to Ireland in the past, I don't think we should even consider curtailing it.

AlekSmart

conorh91 wrote: »

Clamping down on the Superior Courts' ability to supervise and ensure fairness in public administration would be bad for the country as a whole. Our courts have some of the strongest 'reviewability' powers in the EU, and with good reason: very often they've been the public's champion against prejudiced, irresponsible, egomaniac state agencies and politicians.

We can tackle the cost of the appeals process by settling with appellants where there is even a prima facie case to be made against the Refugee Appeals Tribunal. The matter will then revert to the RAT , as soon as possible for a fresh hearing (a much faster, cheaper process), as opposed to sitting on a High Court Asylum list for 3 years.

It's popular to call for an end to the appeals process, but considering how important Judicial Review has been to Ireland in the past, I don't think we should even consider curtailing it.

Politicians like this lad.....

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/call-for-amnesty-for-asylum-seekers-in-direct-provision-1.1897423

A senior figure in Fianna Fáil has called for an immediate amnesty for the 4,300 asylum seekers living in direct provision accommodation.

I suppose Mr O Fearghaill is reverting to Party Political type really,as FF do have a good track record on this particular form of "Irish Solution to an Irish Problem"

http://www.independent.ie/life/motoring/car-talk/why-roads-are-safer-after-50-years-of-the-driving-test-30062291.html

In 1979 anywhere from 25,000 to 50,000 driving licences were given out to those who had never taken a test. There had been a lengthy postal strike and no applications could be received or posted. Not many had telephones back then (two years to get one installed), so tests could not even be arranged by phone. This led to a huge backlog. The then Environment Minister, Sylvester Barrett decided the best way to sort it out was to declare an amnesty. So a full driving licence was given to candidates who held a second provisional licence, as it was called then.

Later, it transpired that some insurance companies refused to allow them a reduced premium because they had not passed the test. Some then applied to do the test to qualify but were refused because they already held a full licence.
- See more at: http://www.independent.ie/life/motoring/car-talk/why-roads-are-safer-after-50-years-of-the-driving-test-30062291.html#sthash.lIA4Ezhg.dpuf

Whats equally inspiring,given the thread-title,is the now relentless pressure coming from the Irish Times and it's enthusiastic following....

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/asylum-system-can-damage-mental-health-1.1895152

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/could-direct-provision-be-the-subject-of-a-future-government-apology-1.1894031

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/how-should-ireland-treat-asylum-seekers-1.1893848

Plenty of moral high-grounding,with the,by now,obligatory references to Magdalen Laundries and Institutions of the time.

It's as if the Irish Times has taken it upon itself to become,not the Paper of Record,but instead the Paper of National Self-Chastisement.

I for one,do not see myself has having any particular responsibility for causing or influencing the situations which so many of the claimants proffess to be fleeing from,but further to that,neither do I see the Irish State as being in any meaningful way responsible either.

The greatest problem our Asylum and Refugee system faces today is the historically high rate of inadmissable and/or frivolous applications,something which the Irish Times journalists and their compliant interviewees skillfully avoid addressing.

This State,since it's inception,has NOT shirked it's responsibilities to offer protection and succor to those in genuine need.

This State,and it's citizens,can be proud of it's responses over the decades,and should be praised for attempting to maintain these principles in the face of organized and well funded cynical campaigns,so similar to whats being presented in these Irish Times pieces.

Nodin

AlekSmart wrote: »

I for one,do not see myself has having any particular responsibility for causing or influencing the situations which so many of the claimants proffess to be fleeing from,but further to that,neither do I see the Irish State as being in any meaningful way responsible either..

Quelle surprise. More wheedling nonsense that's long on drivel and short on facts. The facts are that conditions are bad inside the system, something that has to be addressed regardless of numbers of claims made, denied and so on.

AlekSmart

Nodin wrote: »

Quelle surprise. More wheedling nonsense that's long on drivel and short on facts. The facts are that conditions are bad inside the system, something that has to be addressed regardless of numbers of claims made, denied and so on.

One quite appropriate way of "addressing" these bad conditions spoken of,would be to begin repatriations to other countries who are better resourced than ourselves to deal with 4,000 plus claimants.

Mind you,that presupposes accepting that there IS some State Conspiracy to inflict further pain & suffering on these people,which as you may gather I do Not accept.....at least for as long as coaches and minibuses are supplied to bring shoppers from Mosney to Parnell Square West .

AlekSmart

crockholm wrote: »

OP,you can thank your lucky stars that you were born in Ireland,for despite all the cheats,frauds and scammers that go through the Irish system,it is managable,for now.

If you were in Italy or Spain and had to deal with their migrant problems,you could possibly explode.

Migrant Problems which will be very rapidly explained by those who espouse such things,as resulting from both Italy and Spain maintaining strong colonial empires throughout the world for centuries.....

Luckily perhaps,most Irish Colonization was down to the Christian Brothers and the "Missions"...close shave that was !!!!

crockholm

AlekSmart wrote: »

Migrant Problems which will be very rapidly explained by those who espouse such things,as resulting from both Italy and Spain maintaining strong colonial empires throughout the world for centuries.....

Luckily perhaps,most Irish Colonization was down to the Christian Brothers and the "Missions"...close shave that was !!!!

Ah...But you forgot the ol'"declining/greying population....who will pay persion benefits....vibrant Culture" spiel.
You really can't have enough Somali goat-herders in a modern economy imo;););););););)

AlekSmart

crockholm wrote: »

Ah...But you forgot the ol'"declining/greying population....who will pay persion benefits....vibrant Culture" spiel.
You really can't have enough Somali goat-herders in a modern economy imo;););););););)

Can't imagine the Irish Times running an "Investigative"series on the issue tho.....;)

Nodin

AlekSmart wrote: »

One quite appropriate way of "addressing" these bad conditions spoken of,would be to begin repatriations to other countries who are better resourced than ourselves to deal with 4,000 plus claimants..

Nonsense. The country isn't in that bad a shape.

AlekSmart wrote: »

Mind you,that presupposes accepting that there IS some State Conspiracy to inflict further pain & suffering on these people,which as you may gather I do Not accept.....at least for as long as coaches and minibuses are supplied to bring shoppers from Mosney to Parnell Square West .

More blather, more innuendo, no facts.

Nodin

AlekSmart wrote: »

Can't imagine the Irish Times running an "Investigative"series on the issue tho.....;)

And ignorant racism. Well done you.

Or maybe it isn't. Tell me what the above has to do with the asylum conditions in Ireland - prove me wrong.....

Geuze

Thoie wrote: »

Isn't the vast majority of our social welfare spend going on pension payments, not unemployment assistance/benefit, or did I imagine that stat?

2013 DSP exp = 20bn approx

Pensions = 6.4bn or 32%

Working-Age income + employment supports = 6.4bn

Dayum

People still read newspapers?!

LOL

MRnotlob606

So Op anybody who holds liberal views is now a Marxist ? you sound like Pinochet there. Can you not show Some empathy with your fellow human beings ?I'm pretty sure who wouldn't want to swap places with them with the world that they are coming from.

AlekSmart

crockholm wrote: »

Ah...But you forgot the ol'"declining/greying population....who will pay persion benefits....vibrant Culture" spiel.
You really can't have enough Somali goat-herders in a modern economy imo;););););););)

Well,it has to be accepted that Goat-Herding,as with most occupations,can depend on the general economic health of the Country in which the Goats are to be herded....(A vaveat being individual situations such as the Irish "Land Frontier" with the UK,which offered great scope for innovative and creative Goat Herding...although some preferred the term "Cattle Trafficking" )

However,moving swiftly along......It appears the Canadians,being the dour humourless bunch they are,have decided to impose tighter restrictions on Naturalization and general access to their Country....

http://english.alarabiya.net/en/perspective/features/2014/09/27/For-Arab-immigrants-a-Canadian-passport-and-a-GCC-job-may-no-longer-mix-.html

Some interesting quotes all the same....

Nima and her husband—a Jordanian couple with two children—arrived in Ontario last year with an unequivocal goal after staying nearly ten years in Qatar: To grab Canadian citizenship within three years and go back to the oil-rich Gulf region to stack up tax-free dollars. But now that Canada has stretched the time frame required to become a Canadian citizen to four years, in addition to obliging prospective citizens to commit to living in the country, Nima’s longtime dream seems to be evaporating.

The ultimate wish of typical professional from economically poor and politically unstable Arab countries is to obtain the maximum benefits from both the developed West (a passport) and the thriving new economies of the Gulf Cooperation Council (a job), while offsetting the disadvantages—the high cost of living in the West and the absence of naturalization in the GCC nations.

But Mohammed, a new Canadian citizen of Palestinian descent, argues that getting a Canadian job is much more important than citizenship. “You need a job in order to live here,” says the Mississauga resident, who stresses that foreign- and Canadian-born citizens look for jobs overseas.

With over 30 years of experience, the 55-year-old engineer has yet to get a job in his field since settling in Canada four years ago, but he categorically rejects the idea of assuming a survival job, such as delivering pizza.

Quite a wind of change sweeping across that part of the New World it seems....looks as if it will significantly reduce Canadian inflow numbers ?

AudreyHepburn

Robroy36 wrote: »

I am talking about this weekends "expose" on Direct Provision.

Who do they think they are?

I work hard all week, long hours, get taxed to the hilt to partially pay for an ever diminishing health service, cockeyed politicians and civil servants and an absolutely absurd welfare state. I could go on about impending water charges, house hold taxes and the myriad of other stealth taxes but I'll leave it there.

The above is not fine. It is not just and at times it makes me tremble with rage.

This morning I was left trembling with rage by the Marxists in the Irish Times. Not only should I be squeezed dry Monday to Friday by the irrepressible state, Saturday morning is time for emotional bombardment and an exercise in self shaming by the Irish Times.

They feel that not only should we fund our indigenous lay abouts to the extent that any job paying under 40k a year is simply not worth considering for the head of a family but now we must open our borders to the rest of the world to encamp here a leech off the state.

Let me be perfectly clear. I do not care about Direct Provision or the people "trapped" in this system. A bit of perspective: they are better off in Mosney than they are being shelled by the IDF or beheaded by ISIS. Give them a choice, a plane back to where they came from or Direct provision, I know which answer I'd be betting my savings on.

Next week perhaps do a "Weekender" on how to pay as little tax as possible and avoid self-shaming leftist propaganda from arts graduates who have never lived a day in the real world.

So much bitterness, so little common sense.

Not every foreigner is to here to sponge of us, not everyone on the dole is a layabout (a lot are I admit, but not all).

OP I think your anger has more to do with your own personal situation than anything countrywide.

You cannot expect your own taxes to be lowered or dropped and your own wages to be increased whilst simultaneously demanding that other people be crippled financially instead of you.

It doesn't and can't work that way.

AlekSmart

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

So much bitterness, so little common sense.

Not every foreigner is to here to sponge off us, not everyone on the dole is a layabout (a lot are I admit, but not all).

OP I think your anger has more to do with your own personal situation than anything countrywide.

You cannot expect your own taxes to be lowered or dropped and your own wages to be increased whilst simultaneously demanding that other people be crippled financially instead of you.

It doesn't and can't work that way.

Commonsense,tinged with a little bitterness perhaps ?

In terms of the "Spongers"...do you accept that some of the "layabouts" can be foreign,or do you see this as a uniquely native phenomenon ?

The OP does'nt say they seek an Increase in wages nor a Decrease in taxes,rather that they have issues with how their taxes are disbursed.

One example could be a fullly PAYE/PRSI compliant contributor rocking up to an A&E Dept will be rapidly approached for a €100 "Charge",which that individual could be forgiven they already had paid via their deductions.

The equally fully compliant DSP Customer/Refugee/Asylum Seeker will NOT have that charge levied,in spite of,potentially,never having contributed into the system.

It is,in reality,I contend,all about Commonsense....NO Contribution based system can continue to function if the amount of contributors and their contributions fall below the amount of claimants and the extent of the claims paid out.

The OP's view of the Irish Times campaigns is,I feel,quite valid even if a tad too blunt for the traditional Irish way of putting things....?

Fallschirmjager

Hotfail.com wrote: »

Here's a good idea - Don't read the Irish Times.

Absolutely, a dead trees company trying to be relevant. Deny them your cash and move on.

AudreyHepburn

AlekSmart wrote: »

Commonsense,tinged with a little bitterness perhaps ?

In terms of the "Spongers"...do you accept that some of the "layabouts" can be foreign,or do you see this as a uniquely native phenomenon ?

The OP does'nt say they seek an Increase in wages nor a Decrease in taxes,rather that they have issues with how their taxes are disbursed.

One example could be a fullly PAYE/PRSI compliant contributor rocking up to an A&E Dept will be rapidly approached for a €100 "Charge",which that individual could be forgiven they already had paid via their deductions.

The equally fully compliant DSP Customer/Refugee/Asylum Seeker will NOT have that charge levied,in spite of,potentially,never having contributed into the system.

It is,in reality,I contend,all about Commonsense....NO Contribution based system can continue to function if the amount of contributors and their contributions fall below the amount of claimants and the extent of the claims paid out.

The OP's view of the Irish Times campaigns is,I feel,quite valid even if a tad too blunt for the traditional Irish way of putting things....?

I accept that of course. I don't accept that all foreigners are layabouts or that they are all to blame for our misfortunes.

To be honest I think the OP, like too many people in Ireland today, is guilty of the not-in-back-yard mentality where everyone else can be taxed to the hilt and paid pittance expect him/her.

And as I said I also feel his/her issue is with his/her own personal situation than anything else.

crockholm

AlekSmart wrote: »

Well,it has to be accepted that Goat-Herding,as with most occupations,can depend on the general economic health of the Country in which the Goats are to be herded....(A vaveat being individual situations such as the Irish "Land Frontier" with the UK,which offered great scope for innovative and creative Goat Herding...although some preferred the term "Cattle Trafficking" )

However,moving swiftly along......It appears the Canadians,being the dour humourless bunch they are,have decided to impose tighter restrictions on Naturalization and general access to their Country....

http://english.alarabiya.net/en/perspective/features/2014/09/27/For-Arab-immigrants-a-Canadian-passport-and-a-GCC-job-may-no-longer-mix-.html

Some interesting quotes all the same....







Quite a wind of change sweeping across that part of the New World it seems....looks as if it will significantly reduce Canadian inflow numbers ?

De poor aul crayturs:(

In more harrowing tales of forced immigration- a Cruise liner rescued 345 mostly syrian asylum seekers/illegal immigrants stranded in the mediterranean,fed them,cared for them and dropped them safely off at port in Limassol, Cyprus (EU member state,as you know).

65 diembarked and will make their claim for sanctuary on the island-the O-so -thankful-to-be-alive 280 stayed on board the ship,refusing to budge until the ship takes them to Italy instead-which meant that the passengers could not get to their destination and the ships owners lose Money.

Obviously Europe needs folks like this in abundance.

AlekSmart

crockholm wrote: »

De poor aul crayturs:(

In more harrowing tales of forced immigration- a Cruise liner rescued 345 mostly syrian asylum seekers/illegal immigrants stranded in the mediterranean,fed them,cared for them and dropped them safely off at port in Limassol, Cyprus (EU member state,as you know).

65 diembarked and will make their claim for sanctuary on the island-the O-so -thankful-to-be-alive 280 stayed on board the ship,refusing to budge until the ship takes them to Italy instead-which meant that the passengers could not get to their destination and the ships owners lose Money.

Obviously Europe needs folks like this in abundance.

Never mind Cyprus,I'd be more concerned about Goatstown......

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/the-famous-publican-who-says-his-bar-staff-simply-must-be-irish-30625620.html

I'd imagine there'll be a ring-of-something around The Goat after this...!

Mind you I'm equally surprised that the Irish Times missed a bit of an exclusive here too

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Sick of that awful paper myself now, I wouldn't use the IT to wipe my back side with. You wouldn't get as large of a dose of the social Marxism/liberal mind numbing mush/utter crap cocktail if you read the Communist Manifesto, Mao's Little Red Book and a years worth of Pravda in one sitting. The IT makes me want to vomit violently with absolute disgust. Rest of what passes for mainstream Irish newspapers is only slightly better.