Better Call Saul ***Spoilers***

TomOnBoard

FrancieBrady wrote: »

That might be a plan!

I rewatched it (again) after Season 3 of BCS ended. Thats my 3rd viewing. I see more new things each time and still get surprises..

Boom_Bap

De Bhál wrote: »

I gave up on Dexter but saw SOA through. Good God it got bad, i believe there was a spinoff with the opposing MC gang. Couldn't put myself through that again

There is a spin off in the first season called Mayans MC. It's good, but very serious. The most recent episode is supposed to be great.
I enjoyed Sons til the end, the story got way too far fetched and complicated.


The joy of BCS and BB is that they are not complicated

Tony EH

Hunky Monster wrote: »

Spoilers don’t read if you’re only on episode 8.

I'm only on 6, so not reading

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000

Tony EH wrote: »

I'm only on 6, so not reading

Turns out Jimmy has been dead the whole time and he’s ghost, Kim is the only one who could see and talk to him.

uncommon_name

Hunky Monster wrote: »

Turns out Jimmy has been dead the whole time and he’s ghost, Kim is the only one who could see and talk to him.

Mad twist wasn't it. I wasn't expecting it at all.

FrancieBrady

Hunky Monster wrote: »

Turns out Jimmy has been dead the whole time and he’s ghost, Kim is the only one who could see and talk to him.

The camera work when she wakes up in the shower is unforgettable!

Roger Hassenforder

Hunky Monster wrote: »

I can appreciate that feeling. Dexter and Sons Of Anarchy were up there for me as just great shows but the last few seasons of each were abysmal, particularly Dexter. My god what a train wreck of the last 3 seasons. I’d so much time invested in these characters I just kept on watching despite the show turning into a gigantic turd.

In fairness, i dont think this has turdified, i dunno, i think its plateaued or something. Not loving it as much. Starting to be on the phone a bit more than i used to.

Would still watch

lawred2

I gave up on Dexter

Does not compute..

lawred2

Hunky Monster wrote: »

I can appreciate that feeling. Dexter and Sons Of Anarchy were up there for me as just great shows but the last few seasons of each were abysmal, particularly Dexter. My god what a train wreck of the last 3 seasons. I’d so much time invested in these characters I just kept on watching despite the show turning into a gigantic turd.

Really enoyed first series of Sons of Anarchy. Was looking forward to watching season two when I read about their decampment to twiddledee Oireland in season three.

I decided to leave it at season one and commit myself no more to it.

Boom_Bap

lawred2 wrote: »

Really enoyed first series of Sons of Anarchy. Was looking forward to watching season two when I read about their decampment to twiddledee Oireland in season three.

I decided to leave it at season one and commit myself no more to it.

It's a couple of episodes up north. It's not that bad if you are bingeing.
It felt like an eternity when watching week by week.

Tony EH

Hunky Monster wrote: »

Turns out Jimmy has been dead the whole time and he’s ghost, Kim is the only one who could see and talk to him.

Goddammit :mad:

NickNickleby

ye mean you didn't see SoA baitin' the sh!te out of de OI ARR AYE.

I watched the whole damn thing and I just kept waiting for... well I don't really know.

You know that feeling "hey, this could be good", and episode after episode you're saying it. Till eventually you've seen more than there is left to watch, so having committed so far, its hard to just drop it, because you're afraid the really good stuff is about to happen.


edit to say: to remain on topic, I think some people were getting a similar feeling about this last series of BCS, but I don't think there's any comparison. BCS mostly delivered for me.

Tony EH

lawred2 wrote: »

Was looking forward to watching season two when I read about their decampment to twiddledee Oireland in season three.

That's where I came in and promptly went back out again.

TomOnBoard

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The camera work when she wakes up in the shower is unforgettable!

I thought that just before she woke up in the shower, the way she was using the shower mitt on "Jimmy" was a bit overly suggestive... And then when she finds that she's really just wiping down the tap, the look on her face was priceless... Brilliant camera work alright...

Mr. Incognito

My 2 cent having just watched the Finale today.

Breaking Bad was a character arc driven show. The first few episodes were cheap. But the acting was good, and the pay off was massive.

As the show progressed people got wrapped up in the macgyver moments. "Wow, he blew up the building, Wow a battery from change in their pockets, Wow they robbed a train, Wow they stabbed all those guys at the same time in all those different prisons"

Away from the MacGyver moments the real show was the character arc of Walt from bored suburbanite, to killer, to kingpin. His motivation at the start seemed to be almost noble but by the end he was an evil selfish sonofabitch with no conscience justifying murders.

Set against him was the bumbling idiot Jessie, who wanted to be a criminal, became one and had a conscience and it destroyed him internally.

Better Caul Saul is the same character arcs. It is developing people, putting them in scenarios and watching the reactions.

Saul- Petty criminal to bootstrap lawyer, loyal elder lawyer and loyal brother who has been destroyed by his brother's death, which he caused, which sent him back to petty crime and has now set him on the path of Saul Goodman. He is not Walt, He is not Jessie. He is a character who is the sum of his choices neither black nor white but grey. We can love and hate him at different times. There have been so so many amazing scenes where he has had those choices. So many triggers- Charles not believing in him. Again we see him in this episode idolising his brother and wondering when his name will be on the letterhead. Charles Death. Being struck off. Not being re-admitted.

His reaction to the student today and his breakdown in the car was really a monologue with himself where he finally makes the decision to go to the 50th floor as he will never be accepted. By himself as a straight lawyer. He has given up the fight.


Kim. Kim is Jessie. She wanted to be bad and had a taste of it, but when the chips are down she has a conscience. She only commits crimes that she sees as benefiting others and not herself. The finale where she was shocked at Saul was telling. She was bored of living with Jimmy. Saul turned her on but ultimately they are oil and water because she has a conscience and Saul does not.

Michael is Walt. He started off on a noble path. Killing for honour for his son. He refused to have a gun at his jobs.
Michael is smart enough to know that he had to fix his mistake and that required murdering in cold blood. He had refused to do a job with Saul previously. I dont think he would make that refusal again. I think the fact that Fring said stay there was evidence that he was going to kill Mike also. It was just as easy to kill ze German anywhere.

There are other characters who you hate, like Hamlin with his fake smile and his outrageous suits. He is the epitimy of what you think a crooked lawyer looks like but he has a conscious and Charles death almost destroyed him. You are constantly surprised in this show because characters are not the one dimensional cut outs you thought they were going to be.

Charles who was crazy but an amazing amazing actor and was literally the one one who believed in Jimmy until Jimmy discovered he thought he would be dangerous.

Apart from these character arcs which are fascinating, is a very intelligent script, amazing acting, incredible cinematography and sub plots and sub characters. The bits that people deride as "boring" all have particular purposes. The Karoeke showed Jimmy and Charles relationship. Jimmy pushed aside by Charles who hogged the limelight. It was an excellent synopsis of their relationship.

The people who like these shows that are character driven look for motivations behind the characters and each action fits into that narrative. The Sopranos which told the story of the mob through one family, The Wire which was a tour de force of social commentary through the inhabitants of Baltimore.

These people will enjoy Better Call Saul. They appreciate what the story behind the characters is.

The people who like Macgyver moments will like the episodes with the cards, and the urchins being strung up and threatened with baseball bats or Jimmy changing the legal documents at the copier or Mike shooting cocaine out of tennis shoes.

They are simply different tastes.

But it seems the people who enjoy the character arcs and come here to discuss them are being shouted down by the macgyver fans who scream boring or slow.

I suggest you stop whining and go watch macgyver.

ads20101

This’ll put the cat amongst the pigeons

Interesting perspective article from the Guardian:

'S’all good, man': How Better Call Saul became superior to Breaking Bad

Link:

https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2018/oct/11/sall-good-man-how-better-call-saul-became-superior-to-breaking-bad?CMP=fb_gu

Happy reading

gormdubhgorm

ads20101 wrote: »

This’ll put the cat amongst the pigeons

Interesting perspective article from the Guardian:

'S’all good, man': How Better Call Saul became superior to Breaking Bad

Link:

https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2018/oct/11/sall-good-man-how-better-call-saul-became-superior-to-breaking-bad?CMP=fb_gu

Happy reading

Read it - it is his demographic that would really love it.
A guardian writer who who wears a check shirt, and comes out with flowery OTT stuff like -


– a gorgeous, achingly sad moment of grim duty between two friends bathed in moonlight, a distant city transformed into a string of soft-focus fairy lights behind them on the horizon – was absolutely note perfect.

A distant city transformed into a string of soft focus fairy lights???

I would love to see what he thought of the teeth brushing montage....

Would it be something like -

Hopelessly lost in a sea fluoride paste, amid a tempest of two lives breaking apart.... magical.

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000

Read the guardian article and I probably would have agreed with it a week ago. I’m already on season 3 of my rewatch of B.B. and it’s a far “superior” show even though I hate comparisons between the two shows. They are essentially the same thing.

BCS is the best thing out there right now.

gormdubhgorm

Hunky Monster wrote: »

Read the guardian article and I probably would have agreed with it a week ago. I’m already on season 3 of my rewatch of B.B. and it’s a far “superior” show even though I hate comparisons between the two shows. They are essentially the same thing.

BCS is the best thing out there right now.

I don't agree with him at all.
(I get the impression he is saying it for the sake of it to sound hipster)

Breaking Bad had a direction a purpose a goal.
There was structure a story element.

BCS is completely different at times it can appear rudderless, and gets lost among it's own arty-ness.
Making the story weaker.

The only similarity between BCS and BB for me (besides the actors /producers etc) is the cinematography stuff.

As for a good auld story - BCS falls flat overall.

Montages and cinematography A++ for BCS though.

TomOnBoard

ads20101 wrote: »

This’ll put the cat amongst the pigeons

Interesting perspective article from the Guardian:

'S’all good, man': How Better Call Saul became superior to Breaking Bad

Link:

https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2018/oct/11/sall-good-man-how-better-call-saul-became-superior-to-breaking-bad?CMP=fb_gu

Happy reading

Good find! Nice one!

Yeah, I'd go along with a lot of what the article says...

Roger Hassenforder

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

My 2 cent having just watched the Finale today.

Breaking Bad was a character arc driven show. The first few episodes were cheap. But the acting was good, and the pay off was massive.

As the show progressed people got wrapped up in the macgyver moments. "Wow, he blew up the building, Wow a battery from change in their pockets, Wow they robbed a train, Wow they stabbed all those guys at the same time in all those different prisons"

Away from the MacGyver moments the real show was the character arc of Walt from bored suburbanite, to killer, to kingpin. His motivation at the start seemed to be almost noble but by the end he was an evil selfish sonofabitch with no conscience justifying murders.

Set against him was the bumbling idiot Jessie, who wanted to be a criminal, became one and had a conscience and it destroyed him internally.

Better Caul Saul is the same character arcs. It is developing people, putting them in scenarios and watching the reactions.

Saul- Petty criminal to bootstrap lawyer, loyal elder lawyer and loyal brother who has been destroyed by his brother's death, which he caused, which sent him back to petty crime and has now set him on the path of Saul Goodman. He is not Walt, He is not Jessie. He is a character who is the sum of his choices neither black nor white but grey. We can love and hate him at different times. There have been so so many amazing scenes where he has had those choices. So many triggers- Charles not believing in him. Again we see him in this episode idolising his brother and wondering when his name will be on the letterhead. Charles Death. Being struck off. Not being re-admitted.

His reaction to the student today and his breakdown in the car was really a monologue with himself where he finally makes the decision to go to the 50th floor as he will never be accepted. By himself as a straight lawyer. He has given up the fight.


Kim. Kim is Jessie. She wanted to be bad and had a taste of it, but when the chips are down she has a conscience. She only commits crimes that she sees as benefiting others and not herself. The finale where she was shocked at Saul was telling. She was bored of living with Jimmy. Saul turned her on but ultimately they are oil and water because she has a conscience and Saul does not.

Michael is Walt. He started off on a noble path. Killing for honour for his son. He refused to have a gun at his jobs.
Michael is smart enough to know that he had to fix his mistake and that required murdering in cold blood. He had refused to do a job with Saul previously. I dont think he would make that refusal again. I think the fact that Fring said stay there was evidence that he was going to kill Mike also. It was just as easy to kill ze German anywhere.

There are other characters who you hate, like Hamlin with his fake smile and his outrageous suits. He is the epitimy of what you think a crooked lawyer looks like but he has a conscious and Charles death almost destroyed him. You are constantly surprised in this show because characters are not the one dimensional cut outs you thought they were going to be.

Charles who was crazy but an amazing amazing actor and was literally the one one who believed in Jimmy until Jimmy discovered he thought he would be dangerous.

Apart from these character arcs which are fascinating, is a very intelligent script, amazing acting, incredible cinematography and sub plots and sub characters. The bits that people deride as "boring" all have particular purposes. The Karoeke showed Jimmy and Charles relationship. Jimmy pushed aside by Charles who hogged the limelight. It was an excellent synopsis of their relationship.

The people who like these shows that are character driven look for motivations behind the characters and each action fits into that narrative. The Sopranos which told the story of the mob through one family, The Wire which was a tour de force of social commentary through the inhabitants of Baltimore.

These people will enjoy Better Call Saul. They appreciate what the story behind the characters is.

The people who like Macgyver moments will like the episodes with the cards, and the urchins being strung up and threatened with baseball bats or Jimmy changing the legal documents at the copier or Mike shooting cocaine out of tennis shoes.

They are simply different tastes.

But it seems the people who enjoy the character arcs and come here to discuss them are being shouted down by the macgyver fans who scream boring or slow.

I suggest you stop whining and go watch macgyver.

In fairness, thats pretty disparaging and condescing auld guff.
"MacGyver moments" indeed, as if the people who like the slapstick cant appreciate the more cerebral "intelligent" charachter driven elements, that those on a higher plane appreciate. You can do both, they're not mutually exclusive.

The was zero chemistry beteen Kim and Jimmy (throughout the series). The drunk lads singing Abba in the bed, very unbelievable (for me). Two
criticisms, but that doesnt mean i loved the "MacGyver" elements. People are just ventilating opinions. Dont take it as an affront to your being. Its not personal.

I loved it, but just think it has ran its course.
FWIW, IMO the baseball bat/ pinata scene was poor. How do you square that circle?

Was it the greatest TV series ever?
Its up there, top 5 for me anyway. I just think its ran its course.
I'll still watch the next series, albeit possibly not with as much anticipation.

gormdubhgorm

NickNickleby wrote: »

ye mean you didn't see SoA baitin' the sh!te out of de OI ARR AYE.

I watched the whole damn thing and I just kept waiting for... well I don't really know.

You know that feeling "hey, this could be good", and episode after episode you're saying it. Till eventually you've seen more than there is left to watch, so having committed so far, its hard to just drop it, because you're afraid the really good stuff is about to happen.


edit to say: to remain on topic, I think some people were getting a similar feeling about this last series of BCS, but I don't think there's any comparison. BCS mostly delivered for me.

Good comparison I dropped SOA when it reached the Oirish stage the accents were just too funny, I mean I could get by the blond fella with the walk like a teenager looking for a fight. The Oirish accents just killed it for me.

Another poster mentioned Dexter....
I wished I left it after three seasons.

I will stick with BCS because there might be some good bits in it.
It is not on SOA levels of annoyance by any means.
I also assume the BCS producers are not going to do something silly at the end, and ruin the entire thing (like Dexter)- they are better then that.

Roger Hassenforder

I hope we're not gathered here in a few years , decrying we didnt bail when Jimmy went to change his name.

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

I hope we're not gathered here in a few years , decrying we didnt bail when Jimmy went to change his name.

I think we’re safe. It’s in the hands of Gilligan.

Roger Hassenforder

Hunky Monster wrote: »

I think we’re safe. It’s in the hands of Gilligan.

Im still not over Lost.
Or walking dead.
Thankfull i never got into SoA by sounds of things. Have mercifully yet to see an episode of Dexter

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Im still not over Lost.
Or walking dead.
Thankfull i never got into SoA by sounds of things. Have mercifully yet to see an episode of Dexter

You can watch the first 4 seasons of Dexter and get a proper ending. You won’t regret it. Everything after that is trash.

NickNickleby

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Read it - it is his demographic that would really love it.
A guardian writer who who wears a check shirt, and comes out with flowery OTT stuff like -


– a gorgeous, achingly sad moment of grim duty between two friends bathed in moonlight, a distant city transformed into a string of soft-focus fairy lights behind them on the horizon – was absolutely note perfect.

A distant city transformed into a string of soft focus fairy lights???

I would love to see what he thought of the teeth brushing montage....

Would it be something like -

Hopelessly lost in a sea fluoride paste, amid a tempest of two lives breaking apart.... magical.

I think you have the makings of a great reviewer for The Guardian :pac::pac::pac:.

Actually, I do agree with one thing he wrote:
"....Better Call Saul functions best as pure tragedy."

There are moments when I ache for Jimmy. The flashbacks to his childhood - stealing the cash from the register, because his old man was just going to give it away to any shyster coming through the door. The moment when Chuck finally disowns him in their last meeting. Chuck doing everything to thwart Jimmy's attempt to 'go straight'. Jimmy's mother calling for him on her deathbed, and Chuck keeping that from him.

And then on the other hand, Jimmy gradually becoming Saul, when all he really wanted was to be accepted as a lawyer - with flaws. I believe that had Chuck not prevented it, Jimmy would have been happy enough to work in HHMM . Of course his brief stint in Davis and Main sort of contradicts that. But Jimmy is a mass of contradictions anyway. So, I ached at his poor choices, and was stunned at his finally crossing to the darkside - so much thrown away. I actually groaned when he stepped out of the hearing to reveal it was all an act.

That's why I admire Bob Odenkirk's acting so much. I believed every nuance, every faked emotion (acting the part of a character acting a part!).

You've mentioned in the past, the need to suspend disbelief. Well, I'm obviously the master, because we all know Saul from BB, so none of the above should have been a surprise.

And THAT folks is why I love this show. But.. its not better than BB.

thecretinhop

the absolute guff from some people...
the greatest t.v. show since the sopranos.
the only show in the last 20 years i need to rewatch.
btw lalo killed the wire transfer guy with glasses see the blood spatter when he looks at cctv.
the scenes with mike and Werner
the despair on rheas face
the contempt on jimmys face
chuck getting the bucket for jimmy.
the slushie hitting your mans face lol
mikes face when he has to kill an innocent
gus and his sociopath look
the winner takes it all!

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000

Oh and just to add to that. Google the lyrics of “The winner takes it all”...In the context of jimmy and chuck this is fücking brilliant. But which one is the winner and which is the loser...

I don't wanna talk
About things we've gone through
Though it's hurting me
Now it's history
I've played all my cards
And that's what you've done too
Nothing more to say
No more ace to play

I was in your arms
Thinking I belonged there
I figured it made sense
Building me a fence
Building me a home
Thinking I'd be strong there
But I was a fool
Playing by the rules

The gods may throw the dice
Their minds as cold as ice
And someone way down here
Loses someone dear
The winner takes it all
The loser has to fall
It's simple and it's plain
Why should I complain?

The judges will decide
The likes of me abide
Spectators of the show
Always staying low
The game is on again
A lover or a friend
A big thing or a small
The winner takes it all


So the winner takes it all
And the loser has to fall
Throw a dice, cold as ice
Way down here, someone dear
Takes it all, has to fall
It seems plain to me

NickNickleby

Hunky Monster wrote: »

Oh and just to add to that. Google the lyrics of “The winner takes it all”...

Goodness, young 'uns nowadays. Google, pffft. I can sing it from memory :pac:.