Better Call Saul ***Spoilers***

Bigus

Bambi wrote: »

Because Mike was too nice, he never gave Werner the vibe that he was swimming with sharks

TBH I found that whole plot pretty ludicrous, like most of this season.

A bit ott alright, after all they were only building a secret bunker , it's not as if they had filled it full of stainless steel chemical refining equipment specifically for making drugs.

Tony EH

sicknotexi wrote: »

1.That Werner story line was piss poor. He is an educated guy he is never going to cross Gus for a 4 day holiday(He's German ffs)

His nationality has nothing to do with it. Germans pull sickies too and I'm telling you that from experience.

In any case, I think Werner is a little on the Autistic scale. Or, at least, his character is "quirky" to say the least. So, his actions don't really surprise me that much. He also doesn't seem to grasp the severity of the scale of the danger he's dealing with, with Gus, and thinks that Mike has his back and will bail him out with a few words to the boss. He's never seen Gus, nor does he really know what Gus has in mind for the engineering project he's working on. He's there for the big payout and is willing to accept the unorthodoxy of it all.

sicknotexi wrote: »

2. Nacho completely disappeared from the show for what felt like half the season.

Not a big deal. Nacho Varga a secondary character at best. But, and I'm open to correction, he still has a bigger role in 'Better Call Saul' than he did in 'Breaking Bad'. Nacho, basically becomes Gus's bitch in episode 4 and there's no real need to see him until we catch up with him again in episode 8 to see he's still Gus's bitch, but with added Salamanca problems.

sicknotexi wrote: »

3. The Kim and Jimmy story is sloppy and not that interesting. Kim changes her mindset when the wind changes direction. If the pay off was that one last scene where Kim finally accepts that Jimmy will never change well it was a convoluted way of getting there(it felt like this had happened already on a few occasions anyway)

If there's a "weak" side to 'Better Call Saul', it's Kim and her storyline. I don't care for the Measa Verde stuff and I'm counting down to the inevitable break up with Jimmy. But Kim serves as the "Ordinary Joe" amongst the more extraordinary people in the show. She's a deliberately boring, career fixated, character. A person you'd meet every day. She's a tragic, "nothing in their life but their job" type, who is trying to engineer a life outside of that job and failing miserably. But, she acts as an audience bulwark against Jimmy, who is a really reprehensible guy, albeit with a lot of charm. Kim's disapproval with Jimmy is supposed to reflect the audience's. We're not supposed to be on Jimmy McGill's side, despite his attractive nature. So, in that respect, I accept Kim as a good character, but agree that the writing for her could be turned up a notch.

It could be much, much worse though.

SuperS54

Bambi wrote: »

TBH I found that whole plot pretty ludicrous, like most of this season.

The whole bunker thing doesn't make a lot of sense. Trawling the world for experts who can dig a bunker in secret under a laundry and spending vast sums of money. Being a business owner Gus could simply have commissioned a new building and easily built the bunker under that, also secret but infinitely easier to do and hide.

Mackman

SuperS54 wrote: »

The whole bunker thing doesn't make a lot of sense. Trawling the world for experts who can dig a bunker in secret under a laundry and spending vast sums of money. Being a business owner Gus could simply have commissioned a new building and easily built the bunker under that, also secret but infinitely easier to do and hide.

But then the bunker would be on the plans at the local council. People could find out its there. If it was built before the new building was on top, the workers building the new one would have to know about it, to avoid collapsing it.

The whole Kim / Jimmy thing at the hearing, Kim thought the plan was to read Chuck's letter and when Jimmy went off script, she thought she was finally seeing the true Jimmy she believes is inside him, the true feelings about what happened and his life. When Jimmy called them all suckers, she realised that it's not in there, there is no hidden feelings, he really does not care, and I think that is the real end to the relationship

SuperS54

Mackman wrote: »

But then the bunker would be on the plans at the local council. People could find out its there. If it was built before the new building was on top, the workers building the new one would have to know about it, to avoid collapsing it.

Wouldn't have to be on the plans, it could have been built in secret as with the current one just a thousand times easier as there would be no existing building on top with employees. New building wouldn't collapse it, the footings could have been already prepared, same crew could build the new building, basement could be off to the side instead of directly under etc. etc. With the amount of money that's involved there are a myriad easier ways of doing it.

sightband

Tony EH wrote: »

He's never seen Gus, nor does he really know what Gus has in mind for the engineering project he's working

He has met him during the interview process

OmegaGene

sightband wrote: »

He has met him during the interview process

That’s right, gus was listening in to mike talking to Werner and then came out of the shadows when he believed Werner was capable of completing the project.

FrancieBrady

If you buy into the lab in BB I can't see how it's construction is all that ludicrous or unbelievable. Don't people do willing suspension of disbelief anymore?

Clareman

I enjoy the show and I enjoy the references to subtle details but I do find parts of it a bit too drawn out, but that's just personal preference, I found the same problem when watching the original BB for the first time. For example, the Fly episode in BB really annoyed me because it did nothing to bring forward the main story or showed any development, it was just filler, Gilligan even admitted that the reason the episode happened was because they were over budget and they needed a cheap episode. I've re-watched the episode again and can appreciate it for delving more into the mind of Walter but if I was to re-watch the whole lot again I could easily skip it.

Hector Savage

Clareman wrote: »

I enjoy the show and I enjoy the references to subtle details but I do find parts of it a bit too drawn out, but that's just personal preference, I found the same problem when watching the original BB for the first time. For example, the Fly episode in BB really annoyed me because it did nothing to bring forward the main story or showed any development, it was just filler, Gilligan even admitted that the reason the episode happened was because they were over budget and they needed a cheap episode. I've re-watched the episode again and can appreciate it for delving more into the mind of Walter but if I was to re-watch the whole lot again I could easily skip it.

I used to hate that episode, but it's a great one..

rob316

I enjoy the show I do but I probably wouldn't bother with it if I wasn't a breaking bad fan. It's well written and acted but far too over indulgent in large portions and the creator trying to be too clever. I don't think it needed 4 seasons to become Saul goodman.

sightband

FrancieBrady wrote: »

If you buy into the lab in BB I can't see how it's construction is all that ludicrous or unbelievable. Don't people do willing suspension of disbelief anymore?

Don’t think that was the point people were making, was more who gives a sh*t how the lab was built.

sightband

sightband wrote:

Don’t think that was the point people were making, was more who gives a sh*t how the lab was built.

Because it showcased Mike "breaking bad" somewhat against his will and why he is under gus' control. I don't think it was ever about the lab

Collie D

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Because it showcased Mike "breaking bad" somewhat against his will and why he is under gus' control. I don't think it was ever about the lab

Agree with this. The whole storyline is about Mike. Before Werner he had "only" killed the two cops who killed his son. He knows right from wrong and seems to have a sense of fair play and/or justice.

Killing a nice guy like Werner who considered Mike a good friend and whose only crime was wanting to see his wife was Mike crossing the line from some kind of Batman type crusader looking out for his family to a fully fledged gang member and murderer. Transformation from cop to criminal complete.

OmegaGene

Deleted User wrote: »

Because it showcased Mike "breaking bad" somewhat against his will and why he is under gus' control. I don't think it was ever about the lab

Is he really under his control, gus told mike he would handle it and find Werner and mike said it was on him and he escaped/left on mikes watch
Gus also told mike to stay there when mike rang and he would send someone, mike also said he would handle it
Maybe I’m wrong but it seems to me there is an understanding between mike and gus

OmegaGene

OmegaGene wrote:

Is he really under his control, gus told mike he would handle it and find Werner and mike said it was on him and he escaped/left on mikes watch Gus also told mike to stay there when mike rang and he would send someone, mike also said he would handle it Maybe I’m wrong but it seems to me there is an understanding between mike and gus

The way I read it, Mike knew he f*cked up by letting Werner escape and being the guy he is, he took responsibility. But he also tried to appeal to Gus that there was another way but when he was told to stay there, he knew that unless he showed Gus he was as ruthless as he was, he would meet the same fate. So against his heart, he killed someone he considered a good man to save his reputation and ultimately his life.

Clareman

Hector Savage wrote: »

I used to hate that episode, but it's a great one..

My take on it is as a weekly show that almost always had a high level of tension you were on tender hooks each week to see what happened next, when nothing happened it was a complete let down, so the first viewing if a complete kick in the @rse, looking back on it when you don't have another week to wait to see what happens allows you to enjoying it even more.

Tony EH

FrancieBrady wrote: »

If you buy into the lab in BB I can't see how it's construction is all that ludicrous or unbelievable. Don't people do willing suspension of disbelief anymore?

Agreed. If the construction of an underground meth lab is OTT, then that has to reflect badly on 'Breaking Bad' too.

It's certainly not a reason to be docking points for 'Better Call Saul', if one isn't going to do the same for the older show.

Tony EH

sightband wrote: »

He has met him during the interview process

OmegaGene wrote: »

That’s right, gus was listening in to mike talking to Werner and then came out of the shadows when he believed Werner was capable of completing the project.

Ok, so he saw him. But Werner doesn't know anything about Gus or what he's capable of in the same fashion that the audience does. So, him doing a runner and blabbing details left, right and centre isn't that big of a stretch, while still being quite stupid.

Penn

Tony EH wrote: »

Ok, so he saw him. But Werner doesn't know anything about Gus or what he's capable of in the same fashion that the audience does. So, him doing a runner and blabbing details left, right and centre isn't that big of a stretch, while still being quite stupid.

Plus Werner was already blabbing a bit to the two guys in the bar when Mike let them all out for a drink (nothing specific, but more than Mike was comfortable and Werner knew he wasn't supposed to be talking to anyone), and he was giving information on the phone away to Lalo before Mike got there.

I enjoyed the season as a whole. Some great moments throughout and a lot of promise for the next season. I particularly enjoyed how Mike and Jimmy's seasons ended up and where they go from here as now they're definitely on the path of where we know they end up. Lalo was a great introduction, would look forward to seeing more of him next season. Fring and Nacho were great when they were there but we didn't get enough of them imo.

But I do think next season should be the final one. This season was pretty slow at times, which even though I appreciate the character work and acting, it's better as a binge watch and never has the immediacy Breaking Bad did. I'd prefer to see them properly heading towards a conclusion now.

Mr. Incognito

sicknotexi wrote: »

1.That Werner story line was piss poor. He is an educated guy he is never going to cross Gus for a 4 day holiday(He's German ffs)

You obviously missed the scene with the dynamite where his hands were shaking and he was close to losing it.

rubadub

Collie D wrote: »

Lots of people have bunked off work or taken sickies under much better circumstances. If caught, we'd probably expect a bollocking or to be fired at worst. The last thing Werner expected for going AWOL was a nighttime trip to the desert. He doesn't know who Gus is or what he does.

Gus did not find Werner on linkedin, he obviously has previous dodgy dealings and connections. It would be safer to presume your life is at risk if you are going to job invterviews with a bag over your head.

The other lad up for the job had this to say

My men and I dug a tunnel under the border into downtown El Paso 3/4 of a kilometer long, undetected.
That took us 17 weeks.
If I can do that, I can certainly do this.

Read more: https://www.springfieldspringfield.co.uk/view_episode_scripts.php?tv-show=better-call-saul-2015&episode=s04e05

De Bhál

They should've given Werner a sick kid or something to make the story more believable. He knew what he was dealing with, ridiculous that he would run off because he missed his wife.

OmegaGene

De Bhál wrote: »

They should've given Werner a sick kid or something to make the story more believable. He knew what he was dealing with, ridiculous that he would run off because he missed his wife.

Maybe more a case of cabin fever, they were there for a long time going from the bunker to a wharehouse constantly, he didn’t seem to be a well man either shaking like a lunatic when he was laying the explosives

Collie D

De Bhál wrote: »

They should've given Werner a sick kid or something to make the story more believable. He knew what he was dealing with, ridiculous that he would run off because he missed his wife.

I really don't think it's a big stretch.

He was the boss, he didn't seem to mix with the other lads. His closest friend was Mike whose job it was to keep him locked up. He was obviously very close to his wife and spending months either underground or in a warehouse with little to no social outlet would make anyone want to do a runner for a couple of days

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000

Plus I don’t think money was THAT big an incentive for Werner to stay. Walter says in one episode in season4 that without him the lab is just an $8 million hole in the ground. We’re led to believe all the Germans are on serious cash for building it though...

uncommon_name

I think the issue was he wasn't able to even phone her whenever he wanted and when he did he couldn't do it without people listening in to their conversations. He wasn't stupid so I am sure he knew they would be listening in.
I am sure it would be difficult going from the lab to the cabin for months on end and not being able to have a private conversation with your wife, the one person you should be close to and are able to talk to about anything and everything. I am sure I would find it difficult after a couple of weeks too.
Stuck in a room with a group of other lads who were all messers would be difficult too, he was also their boss so he had to be careful with them.

n!ghtmancometh

De Bhál wrote: »

They should've given Werner a sick kid or something to make the story more believable. He knew what he was dealing with, ridiculous that he would run off because he missed his wife.

That's so simplistic though. Maybe he knew at the start. But they had been locked away in the warehouse for far longer than expected because of the setback with construction, and he made a friend in Mike who had given in to allowing him unlimited phone calls and even a night out on the beer. His mentality obviously changed and he lost whatever fear he may have had at the start.

I don't see it as huge stretch. Smart people do stupid things all the time.

oneilla

rob316 wrote: »

I enjoy the show I do but I probably wouldn't bother with it if I wasn't a breaking bad fan. It's well written and acted but far too over indulgent in large portions and the creator trying to be too clever. I don't think it needed 4 seasons to become Saul goodman.

Yup, Saul and Mike's back story probably could've been told in a few hours rather across 40+ episodes. I hated the Chuck stuff.

It's been watchable enough but it has been the Lone Gunman to Breaking Bad's X-Files rather Millennium (if that analogy makes any sense...)

sightband

oneilla wrote: »

Yup, Saul and Mike's back story probably could've been told in a few hours rather across 40+ episodes. I hated the Chuck stuff.

It's been watchable enough but it has been the Lone Gunman to Breaking Bad's X-Files rather Millennium (if that analogy makes any sense...)

That’s pretty much it...watchable at best. A serious cash cow that was never going to lose. How anyone couldn’t think Breaking Bad was genius and possibly the best television series ever is beyond me. Better Call Saul was always going to be a winner and the viewers were either going to be ‘it’s watchable’ because of its connection to breaking bad, or ‘it’s sheer genius’ because of its connection to breaking bad...which is exactly what we have here with a never ending roundabout of discussion on how good it is.

The real test of how good Better Call Saul should be a viewer who has never seen Breaking Bad thinks it’s a great show and now wants to watch it...unless someone has been living under a rock for the last ten years I doubt you will find one but if you did I doubt they would get past 3 episodes of the first series of Better Call Saul. It’s fairly sh*t, even as a spin off unfortunately.