Better Call Saul ***Spoilers***

gormdubhgorm

Custardpi wrote: »

Possibly but in OFAH it was acknowledged that Grandad had died & they didn't have the burden of having to line up with a pre-existing sequel several years into the future. If BCS goes right up to the time that Walter White enters the picture then Mike will be a central character in the criminal underworld inhabited by both Gus Freng & by that stage Jimmy/Saul, making his absence (again, touch wood) difficult to explain away.

I had forgotten the obvious like an eejit! That BCS is supposed to focus on the past, they would have to contrive some story if Jonathan Banks dies, your right. Banks does look fairly f**ked and worn out. I hope for his sake and BCS he looks after himself.

deandean

Just finished season 2 episode 7 tonight.

It is the development of Kim, who I think is the mutt's nuts!

But IIRC she doesn't appear in Breaking Bad so I guess she and Saul are gonna call it a day some time.....

Also I see the start of Saul Goodman, with the clothes etc.

johnpatrick81

I thought it with the Bell Man vs Mike showdown in the previous episode that Mike is going to be the cause of a serious turn in Salamanca's health, and tonight with him hiding in the shadows I imagine we might see it sooner rather than later.

Even though it was more "eventful" I felt it was one of the poorest episodes of the season so far.

Patty O Furniture

jooksavage wrote: »

Totally agree! Kim is a great character and is superbly written. Unlike Saul and Mike, we have no idea what's ultimately in store for her. Gilligan is really making the most of her unique position.

If BB had any shortcomings it was the female characters - they were usually on the margins or there to serve a particular purpose: Skyler as the somewhat emasculating wife who has a hand in creating Heisenberg, Jesse's dead girlfriend(s), Lydia as the punchable villain. Marie Shrader was probably the most likeable and interesting but she was also usually there on the periphery, reacting to events rather than shaping them.

It looks like Kim is going to have a much bigger role in shaping the story of BCS. I'm intrigued to know where she is in the BB period (or if she makes it there at all....) On top if this, she's funny, hot and very likeable.

I came across an article on that here

• Is Kim Wexler part of the Breaking Badverse, even if we never saw her in it? When panel moderator Debra Birnbaum of Variety expressed worry that Kim doesn’t exist in the world of Saul Goodman, Gilligan responded: “Just because we never saw her on Breaking Bad doesn’t mean she doesn’t’ exist in it.” Quipped Seehorn: “If she was in Jimmy’s life and important enough, would he bring her up to Heisenberg? ‘By the way, there’s someone I care deeply about…’ I feel like all possibilities are open, and I refuse to hear otherwise.”

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

Yeah Jesse says "We don't need a criminal lawyer, we need a CRIMINAL Lawyer"

I hope that the ending of the show is the moment Jesse and Walt walk into Sauls office and it's just ends there.

I don't think anyone would mind that, as it leads into another chapter we've already visited!

Although the writers had thought of ending on introducing Saul at end of S01, but were having too much fun with Jimmy McGill

• The last scene of the season 1 finale was written with the transformation of Jimmy into Saul in mind. Jimmy’s driving off after rejecting the job offer and humming “Smoke on the Water” was “obviously Saul Goodman, that’s the kind of thing he would do,” said Gilligan, and the writers entered season 2 thinking that the switch would happen very quickly...

topmanamillion

jooksavage wrote: »

Totally agree! Kim is a great character and is superbly written. Unlike Saul and Mike, we have no idea what's ultimately in store for her. Gilligan is really making the most of her unique position.

If BB had any shortcomings it was the female characters - they were usually on the margins or there to serve a particular purpose: Skyler as the somewhat emasculating wife who has a hand in creating Heisenberg, Jesse's dead girlfriend(s), Lydia as the punchable villain. Marie Shrader was probably the most likeable and interesting but she was also usually there on the periphery, reacting to events rather than shaping them.

It looks like Kim is going to have a much bigger role in shaping the story of BCS. I'm intrigued to know where she is in the BB period (or if she makes it there at all....) On top if this, she's funny, hot and very likeable.

Really? You liked Marie Shrader? I thought she was the definition of a C U Next Tuesday and my least favorite character in the whole show.

Dirty Dingus McGee

Really good episode again.

Very funny episode and Saul admitting he was the one not flushing the toilets was hilarious.The episode reminded me of this.

The opening flashback scene of Sauls childhood was excellent as it shows why he is like he is and doesn't want to end up being a complete sap like his father was.I think Kim is in for a big let down at Sweigert and Coakley as I have a feeling that Sweigert is a real Wolf as described in Sauls flashback sequence and is going to use her purely to win the case against HHM.

Dirty Dingus McGee

stankratz wrote: »

More BB-world stuff in this episode; The realtor who showed Mike and Stacey around the new house in the latest episode of BCS was the same one from the open house where Marie stole an item in BB episode 5.3.

I liked this episode, and it featured my favourite opening scene of the season, maybe series, with the flashback to Jimmy's childhood experience with his father. By the look of things, Mr. McGill Senior was quite the pushover and having witnessed this first hand, Slippin' Jimmy was born. I was disappointed though to see Jimmy actually take money out of the till and pocket it himself. I thought it was initially going in the direction that Mr McGill Snr's own actions would be the reason why that money went missing from the family business while Chuck was away at college. As of now though, the show is pushing us in the direction that it was in fact Jimmy. By the conclusion of that thread though, I'm hoping for something with a bit more depth than simply 'Yes, Jimmy siphoned the $14,000 dollars from his father for his own use'.

But the father was taking money from the till and giving it to supposed charity cases so not all the missing money is down to Saul.

Dirty Dingus McGee

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I had forgotten the obvious like an eejit! That BCS is supposed to focus on the past, they would have to contrive some story if Jonathan Banks dies, your right. Banks does look fairly f**ked and worn out. I hope for his sake and BCS he looks after himself.

Having googled him he does look a lot fresher in real life.The effect of moving from a cold climate in Philadelphia to desert climate in Albuquerque would have a big of an impact on you I would imagine.

His skin looks horrific but I'd imagine if I moved to live in the desert my skin would look horrific after a while as well, so I'd say his worn out look is part of his character as it reflects his personality in the show.

steve_r

Re stankratz, interesting points re Mike and Stacey. Of all the relationships on the show, they are the ones least open about things. Whilst Mike knows there were no shots, I think he knows the damage his world does, and has done, to Stacey and Kayleigh. I'm not quite sure whether Stacey is playing him or not. It could well be (and this is all speculation) that she is aware, on some level, that Mike is getting the money from criminal activities. It's very hard to know what either of them are thinking.

Re the Gus thing, that makes a whole lot of sense. I nearly think you should put spoiler tags on that!

Patty O Furniture

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

Really good episode again.

Very funny episode and Saul admitting he was the one not flushing the toilets was hilarious.The episode reminded me of this.

The opening flashback scene of Sauls childhood was excellent as it shows why he is like he is and doesn't want to end up being a complete sap like his father was.I think Kim is in for a big let down at Sweigert and Coakley as I have a feeling that Sweigert is a real Wolf as described in Sauls flashback sequence and is going to use her purely to win the case against HHM.

Is she still gonna set up her own different part of the business - Wexler & McGill separately uptown & not go with S&C?

How much would they gain to lose if they didn't have Kim?

rubadub

I do think Stacey is playing Mike and that he is now aware. I can't recall fully but thought the money in BB was only being left to the grand daughter and nothing to her?

Few things I thought would happen but didn't.

-Thought the grifter/conman would just play along the same game in front of young Jimmy, and not so blatantly show it was a scam.

-When he didn't I thought young Jimmy would call out to the father to expose the fact the conman had plenty of money. Or that young Jimmy would show the father the new money in the till and tell him he was scammed.

-Thought Kim was being led along and that the new firm wanted her out of HHM, hoping if they rejected her HHM would not take her back. Probably no logic to that just seemed like it was going to happen.

-Was certain Jimmy was going to have Saul Goodman as the answering machine message after the first few.

Skullface McGubbin

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I had forgotten the obvious like an eejit! That BCS is supposed to focus on the past, they would have to contrive some story if Jonathan Banks dies, your right. Banks does look fairly f**ked and worn out. I hope for his sake and BCS he looks after himself.

Yep. The slower the pace of the series, the longer it will take to reach its conclusion. And the more seasons get made as years go by, the more likely it is that Banks might kick the bucket. So the writing staff will have to be careful as to how long they want draw out the storyline for & so on.

topmanamillion

rubadub wrote: »

I do think Stacey is playing Mike and that he is now aware. I can't recall fully but thought the money in BB was only being left to the grand daughter and nothing to her?

Few things I thought would happen but didn't.

-Thought the grifter/conman would just play along the same game in front of young Jimmy, and not so blatantly show it was a scam.

-When he didn't I thought young Jimmy would call out to the father to expose the fact the conman had plenty of money. Or that young Jimmy would show the father the new money in the till and tell him he was scammed.

-Thought Kim was being led along and that the new firm wanted her out of HHM, hoping if they rejected her HHM would not take her back. Probably no logic to that just seemed like it was going to happen.

-Was certain Jimmy was going to have Saul Goodman as the answering machine message after the first few.

1. I think when the conman saw Jimmy talking to his father he realised jimmy knew and the conman already had his 10 dollars so what was the point in pretending.

2. Jimmy had already tried to tell his father it was a scam and had most likely done the same when "the mexican" scammed him a few days previously leading to the current wave of scammers seeing his father as a soft touch.
He had been dismissed by his father so it was clearly pointless. The conmans "some people are sheep and some are wolves" line clearly resonated with jimmy.

3. I think there's possibly more to the new firm wanting Kim but HHM is a huge firm with presumably an array of lawyers as talented as Kim so I don't see how taking her would weaken HHM at all. The fact Kim would be partner in 2 years doesn't add up with it being a trick. Theres also the fact she's being treated very poorly at HHM so if she swaps one firm that's treating her poorly for another she really won't be any worse off. I'd be willing to take the new firms approach at face value and they just see a good lawyer that they want to recruit, pissing off HHM in the process may well be a bonus.

4. Ya I thought Saul was going to make an appearance too. But I think we probably need a back story before he goes full Saul. I'd have to rewatch BB but I can't remember if we got one there. I'd assume he chooses a Jewish persona because he thought that would make him more professional sounding/trustworthy (Jimmys thinking not mine).

squonk

I think the transition from Jimmy to Saul has begun now. Once those loud suits appeared it was only a matter of time. Now he's out on his own they'll probably hold over Saul's genesis to the finalé. Something has to happen probably between Jimmy and Chuck. It's possible that maybe Chuck demands that Jimmy never practice law again or at least under the McGill name.

rubadub

topmanamillion wrote: »

I'd assume he chooses a Jewish persona because he thought that would make him more professional sounding/trustworthy (Jimmys thinking not mine).

yes, he openly said something along those lines in BB, I think to Walt.

He was watching his old commercials at the start of season 1, and after the success of the one with the granny I expect there will be more.

Can't wait for more of them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqnHtGgVAUE

Thanks for your other comments, all make sense.

rob316

^

As hank said " Your commercials suck, I've seen better acting in an epileptic whore house"

Great line

Red King

I don't get the love for the Kim character. I find her quite hard to watch to be honest. She is just a stereotypical career woman in her 40's who has put her job ahead of everything else in her life. She is not very interesting as a result, even her work is meaningless and directionless.

She has also made it clear that her career is more important than her relationship with Jimmy. I think she will play a pivotal role in making Jimmy into Saul Goodman. I think her career over everything else approach to life will serve to destroy their relationship, she will ditch him or blame him for her own failure to make good decisions in her career.

Ultimately, despite her strong career woman aspirations, it is already clear that everything is not going to plan. She has made bad decisions and is getting played. Jimmy has tried to warn her and even made her an offer to be partners but she has turned him down, blinded by her ambitions to be at a big firm.

Ultimately she will lose Jimmy and her career will hit a dead end.

I think it is actually quite a damning statement by Gilligan, perhaps unintentionally. She is supposed to be a "strong independent woman" but in the end she wlll be a lonley spinster in a dead end job. People will probably blame Jimmy of course, despite her own deeply flawed judgement.

_Kaiser_

Red King wrote: »

I don't get the love for the Kim character. I find her quite hard to watch to be honest. She is just a stereotypical career woman in her 40's who has put her job ahead of everything else in her life. She is not very interesting as a result, even her work is meaningless and directionless.

She has also made it clear that her career is more important than her relationship with Jimmy. I think she will play a pivotal role in making Jimmy into Saul Goodman. I think her career over everything else approach to life will serve to destroy their relationship, she will ditch him or blame him for her own failure to make good decisions in her career.

Ultimately, despite her strong career woman aspirations, it is already clear that everything is not going to plan. She has made bad decisions and is getting played. Jimmy has tried to warn her and even made her an offer to be partners but she has turned him down, blinded by her ambitions to be at a big firm.

Ultimately she will lose Jimmy and her career will hit a dead end.

I think it is actually quite a damning statement by Gilligan, perhaps unintentionally. She is supposed to be a "strong independent woman" but in the end she wlll be a lonley spinster in a dead end job. People will probably blame Jimmy of course, despite her own deeply flawed judgement.

Everyone (apparently) loves Kim but I agree with you. I'd even go so far to say that she's "using" Jimmy as an ego boost - on her terms and when it suits her (such as the "ditch work and come scam this guy cause I'm bored" thing a few weeks back). She doesn't approve of his methods or ethos and it's clear that she doesn't love him the same way he does her though. Maybe she's even jealous of him - after all they started in pretty much the same way (the mailroom) yet he got a high profile case and the rewards that came with it and then ditched it on his own terms to go back out on his own, while she is being left in limbo by HHM, and played by the other firm.

The poor sap genuinely cares for her though and as you say, has tried to warn her and even offered her a partnership but because he's not "good enough" for her she turned it down - but is willing to split the utility costs?!

I think their relationship will hit a wall and will serve as the catalyst for Jimmy taking on the Saul persona completely myself

frozenfrozen

all of this is in my humble opinion... She left a small town to make something more of herself, rather than just marry into the local supermarket, so she is reluctant to settle for Jimmy and the potential death of her career by partnering with someone who she knows well breaks the law every day. Obviously we know what Jimmy becomes but as far as she is concerned up until this point she was really trying to help him out and get him to go straight (in terms of law..). Her confusing the new bossman just cements her fears that she would end up in the same situation again as with hamlin and I think the idea of her being her own boss is genuinely what she wants now. I don't think she believes she is getting the job for real either, they ate up everything she said in the meeting including the name slip which is probably leading her to think that it's just to take her off the old people case / upset the apple cart at HHM, without her there and Jimmy trying to impress her by doing good work, there's no way the case will be won by HHM. It's far cheaper for them to pay her a few hundred grand and the rest of her law school fees, than to have to pay out several million for the class action suit.

I think she's a great character anyway, very realistic dynamic between her and Jimmy. Not another token female character like in so many other shows.

Red King

Red King wrote: »

I don't get the love for the Kim character. I find her quite hard to watch to be honest. She is just a stereotypical career woman in her 40's who has put her job ahead of everything else in her life. She is not very interesting as a result, even her work is meaningless and directionless.

She has also made it clear that her career is more important than her relationship with Jimmy. I think she will play a pivotal role in making Jimmy into Saul Goodman. I think her career over everything else approach to life will serve to destroy their relationship, she will ditch him or blame him for her own failure to make good decisions in her career.

Ultimately, despite her strong career woman aspirations, it is already clear that everything is not going to plan. She has made bad decisions and is getting played. Jimmy has tried to warn her and even made her an offer to be partners but she has turned him down, blinded by her ambitions to be at a big firm.

Ultimately she will lose Jimmy and her career will hit a dead end.

I think it is actually quite a damning statement by Gilligan, perhaps unintentionally. She is supposed to be a "strong independent woman" but in the end she wlll be a lonley spinster in a dead end job. People will probably blame Jimmy of course, despite her own deeply flawed judgement.

What bad decisions has she made...? Who is playing her?

jcsoulinger

Red King wrote: »

I don't get the love for the Kim character. I find her quite hard to watch to be honest. She is just a stereotypical career woman in her 40's who has put her job ahead of everything else in her life. She is not very interesting as a result, even her work is meaningless and directionless.

She has also made it clear that her career is more important than her relationship with Jimmy. I think she will play a pivotal role in making Jimmy into Saul Goodman. I think her career over everything else approach to life will serve to destroy their relationship, she will ditch him or blame him for her own failure to make good decisions in her career.

Ultimately, despite her strong career woman aspirations, it is already clear that everything is not going to plan. She has made bad decisions and is getting played. Jimmy has tried to warn her and even made her an offer to be partners but she has turned him down, blinded by her ambitions to be at a big firm.

Ultimately she will lose Jimmy and her career will hit a dead end.

I think it is actually quite a damning statement by Gilligan, perhaps unintentionally. She is supposed to be a "strong independent woman" but in the end she wlll be a lonley spinster in a dead end job. People will probably blame Jimmy of course, despite her own deeply flawed judgement.

I'm not her biggest fan either, but I think your way off the mark here. She has rejected the big firms in favour of starting her own firm, maybe not the wisest move but should be commended non the less as it shows courage. Saying she will end up as a lonely spinster is wild speculation, and how is her character in her 40s?

rubadub

jcsoulinger wrote: »

how is her character in her 40s?

Has anything being said to make you think otherwise?

The actress is 43

jcsoulinger

rubadub wrote: »

Has anything being said to make you think otherwise?

The actress is 43

That does not mean her character is 43, look at mike ffs, Nothing has been said regarding her age so why jump to conclusions.

rubadub

jcsoulinger wrote: »

That does not mean her character is 43

I never said it did mean that, I was asking if you have seen anything to think otherwise, I thought I might have missed something. I am genuinely interested since you seemed to be saying she was not in her 40's. I guessed she was.

Mike is totally different, he was an actor in BB. If BCS was made today and no BB was ever made then I guess they would have selected an actor around the age they wanted Mike to be currently. I guessed they selected an actress in her 40's to play a character in her 40's, I think its a fair "conclusion to jump to", unless you have something else to go on.

Red King

I didn't even know the age of the actress. She just looks in her 40's so I assumed the character is the same. Wouldn't make much sense to have her in her early 30's because she doesn't look the part.

wawaman

https://mobile.twitter.com/deanjnorris/status/715594851689967616/photo/1

Might mean something, might mean nothing!!

Red King

He's gotta show up at some point.

jcsoulinger

rubadub wrote: »

I never said it did mean that, I was asking if you have seen anything to think otherwise, I thought I might have missed something. I am genuinely interested since you seemed to be saying she was not in her 40's. I guessed she was

Apologies, I've no information regarding the characters age, I disagree that the actresses age is any indication bar putting you in a ball park as to what Kims age is. Imo the OP on this topic decided she was in her 40 to support their argument that she is going to be an unsatisfied spinster.

Red King

jcsoulinger wrote: »

Apologies, I've no information regarding the characters age, I disagree that the actresses age is any indication bar putting you in a ball park as to what Kims age is. Imo the OP on this topic decided she was in her 40 to support their argument that she is going to be an unsatisfied spinster.

Really? I mean REALLY?

How about:

Looks in her forties
Actress is in her forties
Has clearly worked her way up from the mailroom, indicating years in her career
Is angling to be a partner, again indicating years in her career
Is being manipulated by older bosses and rival firms
Is putting her career before relationship
Looks destined to lose Jimmy and possibly end up in a dead end career because her bosses see her as a pawn, not an asset


And in keeping with Gilligan, just as with Walt, it is the people around Jimmy who will ultimately suffer most from his actions. You think precious snowflake Kim is going to be any different to Skyler, Marie or Lydia?

She is a boring one dimensional character, a stereotype career first woman. The signs are however that neither her career nor her relationship are going to survive Saul Goodman. What is she left with then?

And like Skyler and Marie she is annoying, a nag and she doesn't appreciate the man in her life.

This is how Gilligan writes female characters. He thinks they are good female characters because they are morally superior but in actuality they ate thoroughly unlikeable because he is just not as good at writing women as he is with anti-hero male characters.

If you want to see a well written female character look at either Carmela Soprano or Dr. Melfi in the Sopranos. They could equally be bitchy but they were far more interesting and well written than any of the female characters Gilligan created.

jcsoulinger

Red King wrote: »

Really? I mean REALLY?

How about:

Looks in her forties
Actress is in her forties
Has clearly worked her way up from the mailroom, indicating years in her career
Is angling to be a partner, again indicating years in her career
Is being manipulated by older bosses and rival firms
Is putting her career before relationship
Looks destined to lose Jimmy and possibly end up in a dead end career because her bosses see her as a pawn, not an asset


And in keeping with Gilligan, just as with Walt, it is the people around Jimmy who will ultimately suffer most from his actions. You think precious snowflake Kim is going to be any different to Skyler, Marie or Lydia?

She is a boring one dimensional character, a stereotype career first woman. The signs are however that neither her career nor her relationship are going to survive Saul Goodman. What is she left with then?

And like Skyler and Marie she is annoying, a nag and she doesn't appreciate the man in her life.

This is how Gilligan writes female characters. He thinks they are good female characters because they are morally superior but in actuality they ate thoroughly unlikeable because he is just not as good at writing women as he is with anti-hero male characters.

If you want to see a well written female character look at either Carmela Soprano or Dr. Melfi in the Sopranos. They could equally be bitchy but they were far more interesting and well written than any of the female characters Gilligan created.

I dont think you can say she definitely looks over 40.
She could have been working at the firm for the last 15 years and still not be in her 40s.
Dont get your manipulation point.
I think its equally possible she is 35 as 43. we can agree to disagree.

I have said before that I dont like her character and shes badly written. I just think you are off the mark regarding her agenda, If she is as you say career first why would she take the huge risk of starting her own firm besides taking the offer from the opposing firm. I also disagree that she will end up as a lonely spinster.

There isnt a character in BCS that wouldnt pale in comparison to someone in the sopranos.