Better Call Saul ***Spoilers***

Martin567

Cloudio9 wrote: »

But at the end of the day we still have Jimmy admitting to committing a crime. He admits that it's his voice on the tape. Is there a sting in the tail for Jimmy coming ?

I don't think so. He admits that it's his voice on the tape but he claims that he was lying when he confessed to altering the documents in order to make Chuck feel better.

His defence is that he was worried about Chuck's mental health (which is true!) and he only confessed so that Chuck would no longer think he'd made a mistake with the documents and would go back to practising law (also true!!).

Murrisk

steve_r wrote: »

It will be interesting to see what the view is in a few years when the dust has settled. It's easy to get caught up in the hype of an ongoing show that can get over-praised when it is out. In a few years the commentary will be a lot more nuanced and refined as people will have more perspective.

Thanks, steve r. Yeah, this is an interesting point. To me, some of the praise does seem a bit anticipatory too, like people are critiquing it based on the assumption that the payoff will be work all the waiting. I even read a critic review where the critic apologised and blamed himself for having some problems with the show, a real "it's not you, it's me" type thing. I thought that was weird, when has any critic ever apologised for their viewpoint? :P People say it's a standalone show but, IMO, the knowledge we have from Breaking Bad can't be erased and we know how this is going to end up. Well mostly, I suppose we don't know what is going to happen to Kim or Chuck yet. Knowing where it going affects the pacing and storyline, IMO.

And then, maybe it is just me and the show really is that great but just not for me. I just find that the stakes are too low. The glacial pacing might be worth it if the storylines were worthy of it. For example, Mad Men was also a very slow-paced show but the storylines were much more intriguing to me than anything that has happened in BCS, so slow-pacing is not the issue for me in and of itself.

And as for the claims that it stands alone; yes, there are some BB characters that it makes sense for them to pop up in this show. Jimmy/Saul obviously knew some of them from before the BB universe. But some things have inextricably tied the two shows together. For example, I was dismayed to see "KEN WINS!" dude show up in BCS. His appearance showed him getting got again. Talk about overegging the pudding. We saw him get his comeuppance in BB and his appearance was more to do with Walt getting some vindication. He was a footnote on the show. Having him appear in BCS - I just don't know what the point of that was... "Let's see him get even more of a comeuppance"?

Anyway, I'm ranting. Thank for not dismissing my view offhand, yours was a thoughtful response!

Brendan Filone

Did anyone think that in the flashback dinner scene where Chuck lies about the power company turning off his electricity due to a mix-up of numbers in an address is where Jimmy got the idea for switching the addresses in his Mesa Verde stunt?

gormdubhgorm

Murrisk wrote: »

Well, into the third season, I officially give up on BCS. My OH watches so I have by proxy and I just... don't like it.

The reason I have quoted the above is because it's a prevalent view amongst BCS fans, I find, but is so simplistic and binary. It's not a choice between liking character development or liking fights and explosions. More than any show, the reaction towards people who don't like the show tends to veer towards insulting.

For me, I don't care about what happens to the characters and the show is just too slow.


People seem to argue that BB was just as much of a slow burn as BCS, but that is a crock. The first two seasons of BB are like a lava flow on a steep gradient compared to BCS. SO much happened in that two seasons whilst at the same, characters were developed. Ditto something like Sopranos. These shows were multilayered, something that I think BCS is missing.

To me, it reads like the writers are having trouble coming up with a story for how Jimmy ends up becoming Saul. The more likely thing would be that he was always a bit of a shyster and they have tried to do the opposite. Portraying him as a thoughtful guy just reads clunky and false to me. It also reads like they realise they have to drag out the transformation to Saul because when that happens, the show is probably over. And that dragging out doesn't work, IMO.

You are correct in saying that BCS is slower then BB. I think the idea in BCS is to focus on the human element. Day to day normal interactions, the mundane stuff mixed with quirkiness. The characters have good depth I think there is no completely good or bad character in BCS.
The slower pace makes it seem even more realistic to me.
Don't forget BB had an episode about a fly because they ran out of budget!

I can understand completely that you think it is too slow if you want a faster pace.

There are shows such as Game of Thrones that I just cannot get into because the characters are stereotypical cardboard, one dimensional cut outs. I really couldn't give a damn who died or didn't!

But people seem to enjoy it and good luck to them it's production values seem to be good.

As for the Sopranos I got into it years after it was broadcast and watched 2-3 episodes at a time. So I cannot really comment on the pace of it since it was intended to be watched weekly.

I think that when BCS is finished years from now people will be able to binge watch it if they wish. It will be a different viewing experience. In particular for those who watch it before BB.

As regards your comments about Jimmy's character seeming like a thoughtful guy being false and clunky.

I think you are wrong there as in BB there are plenty of times he worries for individual's well being like Jesse for instance.
He had not completely 'Broke Bad'

gormdubhgorm

Brendan Filone wrote: »

Did anyone think that in the flashback dinner scene where Chuck lies about the power company turning off his electricity due to a mix-up of numbers in an address is where Jimmy got the idea for switching the addresses in his Mesa Verde stunt?

It crossed my mind.

I think the line was deliberately meant to echo the Mesa Verde case at the very least.

gormdubhgorm

Keplar240B wrote: »

A stand alone battery would give off hardly any electromagnetic field, its switched off no current following?

That was my one grip with this episode.

I thought Huell would have put a whole phone inside Chucks pocket and then they would have rang the phone in the court.

I suppose that would not have been too plausible because phones were fairly heavy back then.


Edit:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3032062/It-s-official-Scientific-tests-confirm-batteries-bounce-low-charge-not-empty.html

Murrisk

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

You are correct in saying that BCS is slower then BB. I think the idea in BCS is to focus on the human element. Day to day normal interactions, the mundane stuff mixed with quirkiness. The characters have good depth I think there is no completely good or bad character in BCS.

But the thing is, shows like BB and The Sopranos did just that too. And better than BCS as, IMO, the characters were just more multi-layered and fascinating. In fact, that is what set the Sopranos apart from other mob fare. Focussing on the minutiae is nothing new. And it's seems to be all BCS really has going for it.

I've found the perfect example to illustrate the reactions I have mostly found towards people who don't the show. Check the comments underneath this entertainment.ie article where the writer criticises the show (and IMO makes some good points). Just check out the level of vitriol directed towards the writer and anyone who doesn't like the show. If you don't like the show and consider it too ponderous, you're an idiot with ADD. I have found that that is general attitude across messageboards on the subject. I have never experienced this before, that a show is regarded as above criticism. Even bona fide masterpieces such as Sopranos didn't enjoy such protection.

http://entertainment.ie/tv/news/Opinion-Three-seasons-in-Better-Call-Saul-just-isnt-good-man/392933.htm

gormdubhgorm

Murrisk wrote: »

But the thing is, shows like BB and The Sopranos did just that too. And better than BCS as, IMO, the characters were just more multi-layered and fascinating. In fact, that is what set the Sopranos apart from other mob fare. Focussing on the minutiae is nothing new. And it's seems to be all BCS really has going for it.

I've found the perfect example to illustrate the reactions I have mostly found towards people who don't the show. Check the comments underneath this entertainment.ie article where the writer criticises the show (and IMO makes some good points). Just check out the level of vitriol directed towards the writer and anyone who doesn't like the show. If you don't like the show and consider it too ponderous, you're an idiot with ADD. I have found that that is general attitude across messageboards on the subject. I have never experienced this before, that a show is regarded as above criticism. Even bona fide masterpieces such as Sopranos didn't enjoy such protection.

http://entertainment.ie/tv/news/Opinion-Three-seasons-in-Better-Call-Saul-just-isnt-good-man/392933.htm

Yeah the comments at the end are funny alright.

I suppose the difference is the Sopranos was in it's early years the internet was not as developed and there was limited broadband use.

Now everyone can quickly have thier opinion heard.

I am sure Game of Thrones people have the same reaction if some people said they did not like the show.

Some people think by a person saying they do not like a show another person likes that it is a personal insult.
Or worse that the person is beneath them!

I know it happens a bit when people discuss musical tastes, but when it comes to TV programmes it seems to be on a completely different level.
Maybe I am wrong about that.
But it seems that people who like a TV show seem to take even more personal ownership of it then even a band/musician/comedian.

Murrisk

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Some people think by a person saying they do not like a show another person likes that it is a personal insult.
Or worse that the person is beneath them!

I know it happens a bit when people discuss musical tastes, but when it comes to TV programmes it seems to be on a completely different level.
Maybe I am wrong about that.
But it seems that people who like a TV show seem to take even more personal ownership of it then even a band/musician/comedian.

It's mad, isn't it? I guess people are passionate!

astrofool

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

That was my one grip with this episode.

I thought Huell would have put a whole phone inside Chucks pocket and then they would have rang the phone in the court.

I suppose that would not have been too plausible because phones were fairly heavy back then.


Edit:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3032062/It-s-official-Scientific-tests-confirm-batteries-bounce-low-charge-not-empty.html

It doesn't matter, it's a made up condition and Chuck's assertion was that all these things (including batteries) would affect him, it's why Jimmy asked about the watch battery as well, the scene in the hospital where the doctor turns the equipment on without Chuck noticing also confirms this, as does the fact that the walls will all be carrying current to other sockets in the building, it doesn't matter if the battery was being drained or at rest, in Chuck's head, it's all the same.

thegreengoblin

I'm relieved more than satisfied that Chuck finally got his comeuppance. I expected maybe a little bit more invention in the way it happened but that's just a tribute to how good the show has been to date. I suppose it was fitting that it would all happen in a courtroom. Time to put Chuck away now, he has served his purpose.

I'm a big fan of Howard...he is such a prick but a very enjoyable one. Insisting to the court that HHM didn't want to employ Jimmy as it would have looked like nepotism. Then Jimmy asking who was the other Hamilton in HHM. 'My father,' says Howard, without missing a beat. Brilliant.

And I loved that moment where he was coming to the end of his cross-examination but didn't really get a chance to lay into Jimmy. So he comes out with a classic line about how he'd be happy to talk about Jimmy's time at Davis & Main but is told no thanks. :pac:

chops018

Brilliant episode.

To be honest, I don't think the pace of the show is slow at all. I love great dialogue, a story that seems to weave together, great acting, some great shots/cinematography. I listen intently to nearly every line. I can barely look away from the screen while watching each episode each week.

Funnily enough I found BB so slow moving for the first 2 and a half seasons. I remember years ago I watched the first season of BB after reading about it online and thought it was tripe. Then around the start of season 4 it just seemed to explode online with everyone and every media website going on about it, so I gave it another go and ended up liking it. I think the fact that I was able to just watch 3-4 episodes at a time really helped though. By then I had knew each character inside out so like BCS I was hanging on their every word.

I also remember on the BB thread for it's final season there was posters moaning that everything was too fast paced, that there was too much action each episode and barely any dialogue or character development. I pointed out on that thread that we had had 5 and a half seasons of character development and that final episodes were about wrapping the whole show up, so of course there would be action etc. each week. We had the whole show developing the characters to get to where we were, but still had people moaning that it had got too fast paced compared to the earlier seasons.

Anyway, a lot of people will have different opinions, and of course they're entitled to that. Sure it would be a terrible world if we all liked the same things.

thegreengoblin

chops018 wrote: »

Brilliant episode.

To be honest, I don't think the pace of the show is slow at all. I love great dialogue, a story that seems to weave together, great acting, some great shots/cinematography. I listen intently to nearly every line. I can barely look away from the screen while watching each episode each week.

Funnily enough I found BB so slow moving for the first 2 and a half seasons. I remember years ago I watched the first season of BB after reading about it online and thought it was tripe. Then around the start of season 4 it just seemed to explode online with everyone and every media website going on about it, so I gave it another go and ended up liking it. I think the fact that I was able to just watch 3-4 episodes at a time really helped though. By then I had knew each character inside out so like BCS I was hanging on their every word.

I also remember on the BB thread for it's final season there was posters moaning that everything was too fast paced, that there was too much action each episode and barely any dialogue or character development. I pointed out on that thread that we had had 5 and a half seasons of character development and that final episodes were about wrapping the whole show up, so of course there would be action etc. each week. We had the whole show developing the characters to get to where we were, but still had people moaning that it had got too fast paced compared to the earlier seasons.

Anyway, a lot of people will have different opinions, and of course they're entitled to that. Sure it would be a terrible world if we all liked the same things.

I think the middle of last season was when the pacing issues came to the fore and the show dipped a bit for me. But this season they've definitely ramped it up a bit to the point where I don't see any issue at all. I look forward to it so much every week.

_Kaiser_

thegreengoblin wrote: »

I think the middle of last season was when the pacing issues came to the fore and the show dipped a bit for me. But this season they've definitely ramped it up a bit to the point where I don't see any issue at all. I look forward to it so much every week.

Agreed. They seem to have addressed the pacing issues and some of the other problems (Kim's unlikeability and the seemingly going nowhere Chuck and Jimmy story) very nicely so far.. it's looking like the latter is approaching endgame now.

Also this episode has ZERO Mike (who carried the show last season IMO), Hector or Gus and didn't suffer at all as the "A story" was totally compelling.

Credit where it's due... they seem to be listening anyway.

Loved that episode. Chuck went from being a tower of a man in the eyes of the court, to 'just another nutjob' in the space of 2 minutes and it was done so well.

That final, silent shot of the episode which was framed to make Chuck look so physically small in the courtroom was just perfect.

Murrisk

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Agreed. They seem to have addressed the pacing issues and some of the other problems (Kim's unlikeability and the seemingly going nowhere Chuck and Jimmy story) very nicely so far.. it's looking like the latter is approaching endgame now.

Also this episode has ZERO Mike (who carried the show last season IMO), Hector or Gus and didn't suffer at all as the "A story" was totally compelling.

Credit where it's due... they seem to be listening anyway.

All I can say is Vince Gilligan and David Chase are very different people. I can imagine Chase spitting at the computer screen reading fanboy complaints about the Sopranos and going out of his way to piss them off further. Not before knocking over his computer and firing a rake of staff writers first. :P Aaron Sorkin too actually. But Gilligan seems more in tune with technology and fandom.

pickarooney

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

That was my one grip with this episode.

I thought Huell would have put a whole phone inside Chucks pocket and then they would have rang the phone in the court.

I suppose that would not have been too plausible because phones were fairly heavy back then.


Edit:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3032062/It-s-official-Scientific-tests-confirm-batteries-bounce-low-charge-not-empty.html

Chuck's reaction when he saw the battery, having had it on him for an hour with no effect, sold it.

What's this about Kim's unlikability? She's adorable!

Penn

Great episode and a great performance from Michael McKean. Didn't even miss Mike and Gus at all.

henryporter

robwen wrote: »

Anyone confirm the length of this week's episode? Any stream I've started shows up just over 34 mins seems quite a bit shorter than usual, don't want to start watching & find a good chunk missing towards end

It's much better in HD on Netflix anyways :pac:

Best episode so far IMO - from the opening scene with the up close lawnmower to the closing scene with Chuck and the sizzling Exit sign, it was packed with quality script. Greatest TV on air at the moment. Next Tuesday's a long ways away so better get back to binge re-watch of BB in the meantime

bajer101

I've been re-watching it from the start over the last week. Howard is alright.

Shane St.

Great show. Vince Gilligan knows what he is doing

gormdubhgorm

What was the reason that Jimmy got Rebecca to the hearing?
Was it just to show Chuck up and further embarrass him?

take everything

Some great little one liners in this episode.
Love the big black guy's (his name escapes me) response to Jimmy with the exact time he put the battery in Chuck's pocket.

Taking great pride in his type of professionalism.
In contrast to Chuck's professionalism and how it failed to serve after he took the stand.

take everything

Just reading the Reddit thread there and someone was wondering if Bill Burr was gonna make an appearance.

That would be pretty great.

De Bhál

great episode, very enjoyable

Sexual Chocolate

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

What was the reason that Jimmy got Rebecca to the hearing?
Was it just to show Chuck up and further embarrass him?

I dont think she was aware up until that point about Chucks "condition" and as Jimmy wanted Chuck to tell her all those years back maybe he thought now was the best time.

dadad231

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

What was the reason that Jimmy got Rebecca to the hearing?
Was it just to show Chuck up and further embarrass him?

I got the idea it was to further unravel Chuck to losing it in the hearing,
Great seeing Huell again - the actor has lost a lot of weight.

Hazys

Great episode.

I might be missing something but what relevance did Kim saying Bingo in the last episode have to do with this episode and the court case?

Icemancometh

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

What was the reason that Jimmy got Rebecca to the hearing?
Was it just to show Chuck up and further embarrass him?

Misdirection I think. Chuck would be expecting Jimmy to bring something unusual, and bringing his ex-wife to the hearing is exactly what Chuck would expect Slippin' Jimmy to do. Chuck's reaction when she was brought up and the whole Perry Mason explanation underlined his hubris.

The cinematography while chuck went into his rant was fantastic. Did it slowly zoom in or did the fov slowly change too? It seems like his head was larger than the rest of him really emphasising an unhinged moment. Then it zooms out again when he realises what he's done.