Irish Rail

SpaceTime

Copyerselveson wrote: »

Privatisation isn't the cure-all that some may think it is. Here in England the levels of government subsidy are far higher than in the supposedly bad old days of British Rail.

BR's main problem was the same problem IÉ now faces; inadequate subsidy resulting in increasingly inferior services and poor infrastructure.

The Irish state is no stranger to subsidising other forms of transport. The Motorway system in places like the Waterford Motorway, the M3 and the Limerick tunnels are sucking up masses of government subsidies and the railway is losing out. In many respects the problems now faced by IÉ are the drying of of the government subvention - but out of that subvention they are expected to maintain services and the infrastructure.

Money can be found to subsidise Roadstone as it always has been found but somehow the Keynesian attitudes to the Motorway network suddenly become Thatcherite when the railway is looking for money.

If we are to privatise the railways then money must be spent on bringing the rail infrastructure up to scratch and removing bottlenecks.

Essential projects like the Dublin Airport extension, Dart Underground and the Pace-Navan link need to be built but we also need to pave the way for higher speed operation and provision of longer passing loops where needed and the elimination of Temporary Speed Restrictions that choke the railway. Railway services need to run when passengers require them and if that means early starts and significantly later finishes of timetables then so be it. Recruit and train more staff and pay them a living wage too.

NI Railways runs at a profit, and while Stormont could spend more on improving the NI Railways network we could do well to follow the NI example where the railway is in profit, has cash reserves and is still owned by the people.

For too long the railway has been a political football and subsidies to certain favoured road building companies needs to stop.

I actually think realistically that the motorway network is genuinely of more benefit. I'm not saying that's a good thing, it's down to very low density population spread and very bad planning.

Ireland's utterly car dependent more so than most of Europe (other than maybe some bits of the Nordic countries).

For rail to be profitable you need hubs and we don't really have those. So, in most cases you'd have to drive to the railway to use it so, it becomes kind of pointless and you might as well just drive the whole way.

RHJ

This post has been deleted.

end of the road

RHJ wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

why would we want driverless trains, something like a train needs a human behind the controls at all times. simply, unless its a small metro system or something, its not going to happen, at least in our lifetimes

Jamie2k9

The Motorway system in places like the Waterford Motorway, the M3 and the Limerick tunnels are sucking up masses of government subsidies

If you want to get very particular then all motorways which are not within 50 miles of the M50 should be closed as they all carry the same levels of traffic once the major midlands towns are passed the standard numbers traveling are between 7-10k per day.

How do you work that one out?

The average cost is high and now I know there is a big gap between top and bottom however when you consider the wider wage scale, you have to ask how its so high.

As for the pass holders, I estimate (think its more) that IE are losing at least 1,000 for every Intercity service running on the network daily and they are only receive a third of the DSP funding they should be.

Hilly Bill

What do you think the pension is worth to the average staff member considering they contribute to it themselves? Appointed staff that is. As it stand its worth very little.

n97 mini

end of the road wrote: »

because closing things that didn't make a proffit worked so well last time, oh wait, so the lot of the network then, i suppose we should close anything that doesn't make a proffit?

I think people get a bit caught up with the romanticism of railways and the by-gone era and all that, but the reality is Ireland has such low population density that many rail lines simply would never work. The low density is compounded by lax planning laws which allow around 50% of all new builds to be one-offs, i.e. completely reliant on cars to get around.

end of the road wrote: »

so if my line goes why should my taxes go toards for example dart underground?

The DU, which doesn't exist, would very likely be profitable if it did exist.

end of the road wrote: »

as heres the problem, one signs up to paying for things they don't use as they are legally obliged to pay tax.

I think you'd agree it'd be fairer if your taxes went on things you actually used?

n97 mini

jackofalltrades wrote: »

One or all of the following:

Ballybrophy to Limerick
Waterford to Limerick
Limerick to Galway

Without seeing the books, at a guess I'd add Longford-Sligo, Gorey-Rosslare, Roscommon-Westport (although freight might be tipping the balance here).

EDIT: Patronage levels here: http://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Rail-Census-2012.pdf

Copyerselveson

n97 mini wrote: »

Without seeing the books, at a guess I'd add Longford-Sligo, Gorey-Rosslare, Roscommon-Westport (although freight might be tipping the balance here).

EDIT: Patronage levels here: http://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Rail-Census-2012.pdf

Well if it's a scorched earth policy you want regarding the railways then that lot would be a good place to start. However thinking long term and thinking in ways we could shift development away from Dublin and the east coast and more to the west you would simply copper fasten the focus of the state on Dublin and leave the western half of the country as a car dependent under developed hinterland.

As someone from the relatively isolated north west of the country I would be appalled if that scenario you are promoting comes to pass.

Politically it would be dynamite. That level of rail closures would probably push the electorate in the west further into the arms of Sinn Fein etc. too.

may06

n97 mini wrote: »

Without seeing the books, at a guess I'd add Longford-Sligo

Without seeing the books you can justify this closure??? Why?

n97 mini

may06 wrote: »

Without seeing the books you can justify this closure??? Why?

I'm guessing they don't look good as patronage levels are very low at all stations after Longford (except Sligo, but it's at the end of the line). Leixlip Louisa Bridge Station gets about the same level of patronage as all stations from Dromod to Sligo combined.

n97 mini

Copyerselveson wrote: »

leave the western half of the country as a car dependent

I think it's too late for that. Most of the west has no rail already and the few services are not competitive with road. If there was a motorway to Sligo it would benefit a lot more people and would leave the line in the 1800's.

Copyerselveson wrote: »

As someone from the relatively isolated north west of the country I would be appalled if that scenario you are promoting comes to pass.

Co-incidentally I'm from the NW myself and used the train a lot in my student days.

Copyerselveson wrote: »

Politically it would be dynamite. That level of rail closures would probably push the electorate in the west further into the arms of Sinn Fein etc. too.

Different topic (and forum) but railways or motorways or planning permission etc shouldn't be subject to political interference. However they are and you are probably right.

SpaceTime

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

If you want to get very particular then all motorways which are not within 50 miles of the M50 should be closed as they all carry the same levels of traffic once the major midlands towns are passed the standard numbers traveling are between 7-10k per day.

.

Not quite.

N8 is showing 15005 / day in County Tipperary areas and 21669 closer to Cork City

M7 38774 - M7 Between Jn13 Kildare and Jn12

M7 14991 - Between Jn26 Nenagh (West) and Jn27 Birdhill (after split with M8)

M8 21669 - M8 Between Jn17 Watergrasshill and Jn18

Low usage are ones like the M18 : 9512

M11 10649 Between Jn23 and Jn22, Gorey,

Urban DCs are pretty hectic :

N40 Cork Ring Between Kinsale Road and Douglas Interchange: 76809 (probably beyond design capacity and would explain the long queues at peak times in Cork at the moment due to a few choke points, especially the M8-N8/M25/N40 interchange at the mount of the Jack Lynch Tunnel which is a 3-lane signalised roundabout)
M50 Between Jn6 N3/M50 and Jn5 N2/M50 122207
M50 Between Jn13 Dundrum and Jn12 Firhouse 83320
M50 Between Jn9 N7/M50 Red Cow and Jn7 N4 118353

Odd ones that aren't motorways ... N20 Cork-Limerick : 12948 (more than the M18 by a long shot)

N28 Between Cork City and Carrigaline, Carrs Hill, Co. Cork 23024

Just demonstrates to me that the big Western Motorway projects M18 etc is driven very very politically and is probably totally overkill and has starved projects in commuter towns with serious issues with traffic of funds.

That being said, there is a need for a good transport link up the west coast if you want development to happen too and WRC certainly wasn't it. M20 linking Cork and Limerick is needed and the M18 needs to be finished to Galway and upgraded M17 into the Northwest - wouldn't necessarily have to be motorway, but it needs to be made good quality the entire way.

I'm not entirely sure what the purpose of the WRC was though. It's basically just connecting a load of 19th century hubs together with extremely slow trains.

Go here for a browse : https://www.nratrafficdata.ie/c2/gmapbasic.asp?sgid=ZvyVmXU8jBt9PJE$c7UXt6

For some reason you have to google NRA Traffic Data to find it, typing the address in directly gets you an error !?

Also be careful when you are using it that you're actually looking at motorways. Some of the counters are on the older roads that the motorways replaced and you get very low readings. Until you zoom in / read the label that might not be clear as the they look almost on-line with the motorway.

Overall though, I think we need to get beyond this notion that public transport = rail. Investment in roads and high quality bus networks that are actually run properly is extremely important and more effective in a lot of areas.

There are a few key routes in Ireland that justify decent speed (up to 200km/h) rail. The other areas are probably better served by high quality bus networks to be perfectly honest.

I think some people get completely locked into a notion that we need rail everywhere. The reality is we don't. We need properly functioning, efficient, effective and low CO2 public transport. That doesn't necessarily mean laying or maintaining rails.

I'd rather have seen the WRC money having been spent on light rail in and bus networks in Cork, Limerick and Galway. That would have improved a lot more people's lives than a big long railway line that nobody uses.

A public transport network is just that - it's a public service. I think sometimes people seem to think it's some kind of system to entertain train enthusiasts. I don't mean to be disrespectful of those people, but rail isn't always the most appropriate solution, especially when you've low population densities and umpteen small hubs to interconnect.

Also, we have a pretty decent road network at this stage, and I think we need to build on the good infrastructure that we have in place already and that probably means investment in inter-town bus routes in rural areas.

The other issue that would be very useful is some kind of integrated ticketing and feeding busses for any rail that is viable.

There should be more use of things like bus+rail tickets feeding people into intercity rail connections. The problem however is most of the intercity routes (other than Cork-Dublin) have almost no advantage (sometimes are even slower) than the equivalent road routes.

Dublin-Sligo for example is pretty painful by rail in terms of speed and journey time.

Dublin-Cork (Limerick & Kerry) as well as Dublin-Belfast (& Dundalk / Drogheda) should be really improved though to make use of 200km/h.

Infini

The whole place is a mess but its mainly because of bad management and government interference and politics.

For example the booking offices. Theyre being closed all over the place because they want machines collecting the fares and in order to accomplish this they are refusing to fill the vacancies from these places or upgrade them to modern standards with leap card topup machines and credit card facilities. This would be questionable at best in the countryside where services are few and far between outside of major towns but its completely stupid way of goin about expecially on the greater dublin area network where depite the increase in ticket checkers its ridiculously easy to fare evade because of the amount of holes in the system. Theres no rail cops like in England here so fare dodgers can escape pretty easily. Theres also the whole issue of safety as well as security as certain little scrotes tend to hand around these unmanned stations causing trouble.

Ticket prices while seeming expensive are still nowhere near as bad as england where prices I believe in parts are nearly twices as expensive for the same distance. Theres also been offers for online booking in advance at about €14 which isnt bad when you consider walk in prices can be €60~70 if travelling at the last minute. That being said the prices went up in the first place because of goverment interference by cutting the subsidy.

Closing lines will NOT solve the issue lets be blunt here we ended up closing them only to spend money reopening some parts that shouldnt have been closed in the first place (harcourt line as LUAS and the badly executed WRC). What needs to be done is to maintain the existing infrastructure but adjust timetabling and possibly reallign some sections in the long term. Navan rail spur shoulve been completed since it would not only end in a major town instead of the middle of nowhere but allow a possible backup linkup to drogheda too.

Privatisation does nothing it just makes things worse. England did it and it ended up costing them more. Not only that but its associated with forcing down pay to minimum wage conditions and worker exploitation. Its also extremely unlikely any private operator would operate in ireland with the existing infrasture anyways since it would be a loss making venture. Then theres the fact that even the 10% on the NTA thing for buses is causing trouble I cannot see that ending well. Only thing that really makes money are the DART network really and why would u sell that off and leave taxpayers with the unprofitable rump. Whats ultimately needed is accountability wheres the money going etc. If the place was overstocked with trains that now sit idle WHO was responsible for this? Why were so many ordered so early instead of over time etc.

As for staff costs it's not necessarily cos theyre overpaid but could be down the the amount of overtime being done cos of LACK of core staff. Least where I'm working staffing levels have been decimated theres not enough staff to keep manning places at minimum levels without pulling people in on overtime. Average depotman is about €36~38k per year before taxes and even those driving wouldnt actually have €56k per year, remember those numbers being quoted are before taxes which can usually mean theyre significantly lower by the end.

The FTP scheme is a joke but not for the old folks travelling. Most would generally agree the elderly should have free travel theyve done their time but the rest need serious evaluation. The whole schemes weakness is from the goverment end they interfered with the scheme in the past for political gain and now they dont want to pay for it so its causing losses and thats before factoring the sheer abuse factor of the scheme as well. Only way to fix this is to restrict it to the Elderly and Severely Disabled only (blindless, wheelchair uses) and the companion scheme has to go since its wide open to abuse as well. The switching to the new cards might help but not until the old letterbox passes are invalidated entirely.

The whole upcoming strike even is unneeded but its not the workers fault theyre just fed up with the politicing and BS and the strikes are a reaction to that. Remeber there was a previously agreed to pay agreement that workers gave up certain things for in return for core pay and the end result? Political interference via the goverment cutting the subsidy AGAIN. Obvious political interefernce is Obvious. Its also destroyed what little credibilty management had left and now the result is a showdown. As one driver put it "Whenever Fine Gael gets into power they cause murder in the railway" and the last time they did this in the 80's the end result was a 10 week lockdown of the place. As it stands its unfortunate people are gonna be inconvenienced by it but theres little other option at this point since the goverment is hellbent on taking money from everyone instead of seriously addressing the issues properly.

SpaceTime

I think there are definitely too many free travel passes being handed out willy nilly and they should be used to encourage people onto off-peak services!

I don't mind OAPs having free passes, it's a nice service. However, there's very little reason why they should have free passes on busy services. We should be shaping the traffic with those passes, especially on busy routes.

If they want to travel peak, they should pay as it's a very limited capacity service.

Also, speaking from what I see anecdotally, there seems to be a lot of free passes being handed out to people on various benefit schemes for no logical reason.
I was stuck beside some guy who was loudly telling me about how he'd a FTP and how he couldn't believe how I had paid for my ticket!?!

If someone genuinely needs one, fair enough - e.g. to get to/from some kind of hospital appointments or something. However, I'd question some of the logic of how they're being handed out.

Copyerselveson

n97 mini wrote: »

I'm guessing they don't look good as patronage levels are very low at all stations after Longford (except Sligo, but it's at the end of the line). Leixlip Louisa Bridge Station gets about the same level of patronage as all stations from Dromod to Sligo combined.

You aren't comparing like with like though. The stations from Dromod through to Sligo are rural stations with a few trains each way per day. Louisa Bridge is a commuter station with a very frequent service from early in the morning until sort of late at night. Obviously Leixlip will have much bigger passenger numbers than any rural station.

n97 mini

Copyerselveson wrote: »

You aren't comparing like with like though. The stations from Dromod through to Sligo are rural stations with a few trains each way per day. Louisa Bridge is a commuter station with a very frequent service from early in the morning until sort of late at night. Obviously Leixlip will have much bigger passenger numbers than any rural station.

The comparison doesn't really matter, maybe I shouldn't have made it. The figures speak for themselves, but Dromod to Sligo inclusive average 50 people per train (900 people on 18 trains a day).

end of the road

n97 mini wrote: »

I think people get a bit caught up with the romanticism of railways and the by-gone era and all that

no they don't, they realise the mistakes of the past and don't want them repeated

n97 mini wrote: »

the reality is Ireland has such low population density that many rail lines simply would never work.

yet they do, only about 3 don't, 2 were ran down to irrelevance, and ennis athenry shouldn't have been reopened as it could probably weaken the ennis limerick service.

n97 mini wrote: »

The low density is compounded by lax planning laws which allow around 50% of all new builds to be one-offs, i.e. completely reliant on cars to get around.

and yet, people still use the railway, brilliant isn't it, we'd all love dart amounts using the railways but its not happening, yet i don't mind my taxes going toards it, why? because its a public service.

n97 mini wrote: »

The DU, which doesn't exist, would very likely be profitable if it did exist.

thats great, but if my line goes how am i going to get to it to use it? a bus? why would i bother with the hassle? so if i can't use it by your logic, why should my taxes go toards it?

n97 mini wrote: »

I think you'd agree it'd be fairer if your taxes went on things you actually used?

in a perfect ideal world yes, but we don't live in one and never will, so i'l have to settle for them going toards public services for everyone

end of the road

n97 mini wrote: »

Without seeing the books, at a guess I'd add Longford-Sligo, Gorey-Rosslare, Roscommon-Westport (although freight might be tipping the balance here).

EDIT: Patronage levels here: http://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Rail-Census-2012.pdf

so much of the network then? may as well shut and rip up the lot so if you want to steal these lines from the communities they serve? want our hospitals and schools also? they aren't proffitable

end of the road

may06 wrote: »

Without seeing the books you can justify this closure??? Why?

shur because its outside dublin and doesn't make a proffit

end of the road

n97 mini wrote: »

I think it's too late for that. Most of the west has no rail already and the few services are not competitive with road. If there was a motorway to Sligo it would benefit a lot more people and would leave the line in the 1800's.

but a motor way to sligo isn't justifiable, it would cost way to much and we can't afford it, as you believe i should have my taxes going toards things i use, i therefore don't want to fund it, would rather the railway as there is a chance i would use it one day

end of the road

SpaceTime wrote: »

Overall though, I think we need to get beyond this notion that public transport = rail.

who said it was? if were talking about the current network then its fine, its the only public transport service worth talking about on these routes.

SpaceTime wrote: »

Investment in roads and high quality bus networks that are actually run properly is extremely important and more effective in a lot of areas.

not where there is a current railway unless the busses feed in and out of it, if you want to replace such railways with a "high quality bus network" then for my route, no thanks, i'd rather drive if the rail line goes.

SpaceTime wrote: »

There are a few key routes in Ireland that justify decent speed (up to 200km/h) rail. The other areas are probably better served by high quality bus networks to be perfectly honest.

why? why should i lose my rail line to be replaced by a "high quality bus network" that i'm just not going to use? bus networks are only fine if they bring people from places not served by rail to places that are, otherwise if your just going to replace rail with bus tell people buy a car.

SpaceTime wrote: »

I think some people get completely locked into a notion that we need rail everywhere.

no they don't, they want the current network to be kept and after that certain lines like navan which should never have been closed reopened, thats about the only line reopening that should definitely happen.

SpaceTime wrote: »

The reality is we don't

on the current network, yes

SpaceTime wrote: »

We need properly functioning, efficient, effective and low CO2 public transport. That doesn't necessarily mean laying or maintaining rails.

if you want low CO2 public transport then an electrified railway is the best option, or a light rail system.

SpaceTime wrote: »

I'd rather have seen the WRC money having been spent on light rail in and bus networks in Cork, Limerick and Galway. That would have improved a lot more people's lives than a big long railway line that nobody uses.

or investment in the current rail network would have been even better.

SpaceTime wrote: »

A public transport network is just that - it's a public service.

exactly

SpaceTime wrote: »

I think sometimes people seem to think it's some kind of system to entertain train enthusiasts.

no they don't, like me they believe that simply ripping up railways left right and centre to achieve nothing just like before is an idiotic thing to do

SpaceTime wrote: »

I don't mean to be disrespectful of those people, but rail isn't always the most appropriate solution, especially when you've low population densities and umpteen small hubs to interconnect.

it is on the current network, which should be left alone.

SpaceTime wrote: »

Also, we have a pretty decent road network at this stage, and I think we need to build on the good infrastructure that we have in place already and that probably means investment in inter-town bus routes in rural areas.

and the current rail network

SpaceTime wrote: »

The other issue that would be very useful is some kind of integrated ticketing and feeding busses for any rail that is viable.

the majority of the network is, so that can be got up and running quickly with little to no cost.

SpaceTime wrote: »

There should be more use of things like bus+rail tickets feeding people into intercity rail connections. The problem however is most of the intercity routes (other than Cork-Dublin) have almost no advantage (sometimes are even slower) than the equivalent road routes.

so make them faster. if people can get access to something that is faster then the motor way there is more chance they will actually use it, there will always be some who will never use public transport though.

SpaceTime wrote: »

Dublin-Sligo for example is pretty painful by rail in terms of speed and journey time.

i'd still rather the journey on a train then a bus though if i had to ever go to that part of the country.

SpaceTime wrote: »

Dublin-Cork (Limerick & Kerry) as well as Dublin-Belfast (& Dundalk / Drogheda) should be really improved though to make use of 200km/h.

it won't be though, it should and could have been done years ago.

n97 mini

end of the road wrote: »

but a motor way to sligo isn't justifiable, it would cost way to much and we can't afford it, as you believe i should have my taxes going toards things i use, i therefore don't want to fund it, would rather the railway as there is a chance i would use it one day

You want a railway to Sligo but not a motorway even though the existence of a motorway is easier to justify as it would get vastly more patronage. Ok.

end of the road

n97 mini wrote: »

You want a railway to Sligo but not a motorway even though the existence of a motorway is easier to justify as it would get vastly more patronage. Ok.

well you did say we should be able to choose where our taxes go, but realistically i'd rather both were invested in rather then 1 at the expence of the other.

jackofalltrades

Judgement Day wrote: »

And when these closure fail/worsen the situation at Irish Rail, where then the axe...

And why would they worsen the situation?

Copyerselveson

jackofalltrades wrote: »

And why would they worsen the situation?

Less rail fares being collected for a start. We have a skeletal enough rail network without hacking off even more of it.

If we were serious about developing the country properly we would encourage development in the western half of the country. Shutting large chunks of the railway network is mad third world stuff and shutting the door on economic development in the west.

jackofalltrades

Copyerselveson wrote: »

Less rail fares being collected for a start.

But the fares collected make up a small fraction of the cost of running the line.
So there would be a net saving.

If we were serious about developing the country properly we would encourage development in the western half of the country. Shutting large chunks of the railway network is mad third world stuff and shutting the door on economic development in the west.

Economic development in the western half of the country is hampered by one of housing and living in low population densities.
This makes the provision of infrastructure very expensive and leads to it being second rate, making the areas less attractive to business.
This is the real problem that needs to be addressed.

Jamie2k9

]SpaceTime

Agree mostly with your post but the point was every single motorway build is costing lots as they are very underused apart from around Dublin and Cork.

Many towns/villages needed bypasses so it made sense to build motorways completely however they were always going to cost the taxpayers long after they were build.

SpaceTime

The thing with the motorway build though is it prevents a lot of people ending up in the mortuary too.

There's a very strong public safety argument to building what are in reality quite narrow motorways mostly.

We went from having fairly poor road safety stats by EU standards to being statistically one of the safest place to drive in the world and that's mostly down to a massive reduction in the number of head-on collisions due to a diverting a high % of journeys onto motorways.

Banjoxed

How embarrassing for our resident libertarians then that tolled motorways continue to be a source of income for the private companies running them courtesy of the taxpayer because not enough people use them.



http://m.independent.ie/business/irish/toll-firms-paid-28m-to-compensate-for-lack-of-traffic-30506820.html

Infini

Banjoxed wrote: »

How embarrassing for our resident libertarians then that tolled motorways continue to be a source of income for the private companies running them courtesy of the taxpayer because not enough people use them.



http://m.independent.ie/business/irish/toll-firms-paid-28m-to-compensate-for-lack-of-traffic-30506820.html

Well thats laughable they spend €28mil compensating private operators for less traffic than expected yet cant pay a paltry €17mil to compensate for the difference in rail.... gombeen politics at its finest.

MOH

end of the road wrote: »

why would we want driverless trains, something like a train needs a human behind the controls at all times. simply, unless its a small metro system or something, its not going to happen, at least in our lifetimes

Some of these are hardly "small metro systems".

Banjoxed

Infini2 wrote: »

Well thats laughable they spend €28mil compensating private operators for less traffic than expected yet cant pay a paltry €17mil to compensate for the difference in rail.... gombeen politics at its finest.

The logical conclusion then is that the existence of the railways is an impediment to them getting more gravy from the taxpayer. Hence the spin.

SpaceTime

n97 mini wrote: »

The comparison doesn't really matter, maybe I shouldn't have made it. The figures speak for themselves, but Dromod to Sligo inclusive average 50 people per train (900 people on 18 trains a day).

Given the population along that line that's actually *high* uptake.

foggy_lad

SpaceTime wrote: »

Given the population along that line that's actually *high* uptake.

But that high uptake does not come anywhere close to paying for the service from Longford to Sligo which probably costs more in maintenance than the line out to Longford from Maynooth.

end of the road

Banjoxed wrote: »

How embarrassing for our resident libertarians then that tolled motorways continue to be a source of income for the private companies running them courtesy of the taxpayer because not enough people use them.



http://m.independent.ie/business/irish/toll-firms-paid-28m-to-compensate-for-lack-of-traffic-30506820.html

its ireland, we have "mug" written all over our name plates (well virtual name plates)

end of the road

MOH wrote: »

Some of these are hardly "small metro systems".

they are self contained lightish rail systems, the heavy rail network is a different beast, simply driverless trains on the heavy rail network isn't going to happen any time soon or at all, even if it did someone would have to be aboard incase the system fails

end of the road

foggy_lad wrote: »

But that high uptake does not come anywhere close to paying for the service from Longford to Sligo which probably costs more in maintenance than the line out to Longford from Maynooth.

how doesn't it, less trains between sligo and longford then longford and dublin, meaning longer lasting of the line from longford to sligo, either way its worth every penny as its a public service.

MOH

end of the road wrote: »

they are self contained lightish rail systems, the heavy rail network is a different beast, simply driverless trains on the heavy rail network isn't going to happen any time soon or at all, even if it did someone would have to be aboard incase the system fails

I'd still argue that it saying it'll never happen "in our lifetimes" is a bit pessimistic.

end of the road

MOH wrote: »

I'd still argue that it saying it'll never happen "in our lifetimes" is a bit pessimistic.

its not, on the heavy rail network unless its a new line which is completely self contained its not going to happen, there are to many risks on the current heavy rail network for it to be feasible, anyway driverless trains are unneeded and pointless, it works for completely self contained metro systems of low speeds. simply for the heavy rail network. not happening

SpaceTime

foggy_lad wrote: »

But that high uptake does not come anywhere close to paying for the service from Longford to Sligo which probably costs more in maintenance than the line out to Longford from Maynooth.

I mean that's as high as it's going to get.

I find Irish people think of our regional towns as WAY bigger than they actually are.

Sligo is only 20,000 which is putting into small town categories in an English context.

Then you've got to factor in that there's really no population density along the route.

It makes things very difficult to make infrastructure economically viable.

Losty Dublin

Banjoxed wrote: »

The logical conclusion then is that the existence of the railways is an impediment to them getting more gravy from the taxpayer. Hence the spin.

I propose we get rid of all our god forsaken railways and use the money saved for increasing road toll subvention.

Banjoxed

Losty Dublin wrote: »

I propose we get rid of all our god forsaken railways and use the money saved for increasing road toll subvention.

If we do get rid of all our railways it will undoubtedly make many stand up that bit more firmly, in delight at bringing the rest of the Twenty six counties to the same standard as Letterkenny.

Banjoxed

SpaceTime wrote: »

I mean that's as high as it's going to get.

I find Irish people think of our regional towns as WAY bigger than they actually are.

Sligo is only 20,000 which is putting into small town categories in an English context.

Then you've got to factor in that there's really no population density along the route.

It makes things very difficult to make infrastructure economically viable.

It is curious that a poster pulling an assertion out of his arse about maintenance costs on the Sligo line beyond Longford, and another assuming that the urban district population of Sligo is the only source of demand at Sligo station, go unchallenged.

Both assertions are of course bollocks of the highest order.

n97 mini

end of the road wrote: »

either way its worth every penny as its a public service.

How little patronage does a public service need to get before it's not worth spending money on?

Attymon station averages 1 passenger a day from 7 trains that stop there. That means on average 6 trains stop and no-one gets on or off. Never mind maintenance costs on the building. Is it worth it?

Losty Dublin

Banjoxed wrote: »

If we do get rid of all our railways it will undoubtedly make many stand up that bit more firmly, in delight at bringing the rest of the Twenty six counties to the same standard as Letterkenny.

The Wee Swilly got it wrong all those years ago. They should have invested in turnpikes instead of Leyland road buses and tollbooths instead of Bedford lurry's.

Copyerselveson

n97 mini wrote: »

How little patronage does a public service need to get before it's not worth spending money on?

Attymon station averages 1 passenger a day from 7 trains that stop there. That means on average 6 trains stop and no-one gets on or off. Never mind maintenance costs on the building. Is it worth it?

The intrinsic cost of allowing trains to stop at a station aren't that high. In essence a building that may originally have housed a station master, a porter, a ticket seller and signallers for sidings and junctions etc is really no longer needed to make a station operational.

If the station consists purely as a platform with an automatic ticket barrier and a ticket machine with cctv for security then the running costs are significantly less. Electricity bills and public liability insurance would be the biggest expense. Attymon does not have a passing loop though if one were provided there then the Galway line could have extra capacity to run more frequent trains. Installing a passing loop there would be of benefit to the line and even then if only one or two passengers board at the station IÉ would get a good return on their investment.

If we were serious about saving money and keeping the railway operational at places like Attymon the associated buildings at the station could be sold off or demolished to save maintenance costs and the station run on a bare bones level.

Closure is presented by some here and elsewhere as a panacea to the railways problems. Closure is not a panacea, closure is just that, closure. Only beneficaries of that approach are a few anti-railway ideologues and of course the operators of toll motorways.

flyingsnail

n97 mini wrote: »

How little patronage does a public service need to get before it's not worth spending money on?

I dont know

Attymon station averages 1 passenger a day from 7 trains that stop there. That means on average 6 trains stop and no-one gets on or off. Never mind maintenance costs on the building. Is it worth it?

But we should be careful about making any decision based on the data of a single day in November, and data that is now 2 years old

n97 mini

flyingsnail wrote: »

But we should be careful about making any decision based on the data of a single day in November, and data that is now 2 years old

Until we have better data it is the best we have, but I think anyone familiar with the Galway line knows that Attymon is essentially a ghost station.

jackofalltrades

n97 mini wrote: »

How little patronage does a public service need to get before it's not worth spending money on?

I think this is something that needs to be set in stone if it hasn't already at some level.

Copyerselveson wrote: »

Closure is presented by some here and elsewhere as a panacea to the railways problems. Closure is not a panacea, closure is just that, closure. Only beneficaries of that approach are a few anti-railway ideologues and of course the operators of toll motorways.

Is anyone saying that line closures are a solution to all the railways problems.
Closing unsustainable routes is common practice in the bus and aviation industry.
I don't see why it shouldn't be considered when it comes to the railways.

end of the road

n97 mini wrote: »

How little patronage does a public service need to get before it's not worth spending money on?

Attymon station averages 1 passenger a day from 7 trains that stop there. That means on average 6 trains stop and no-one gets on or off. Never mind maintenance costs on the building. Is it worth it?

yes, its there anyway and better that then be shut and the building left to rot, as happened to so many other stations in the past. the station provides a service to someone who would either not get out or who would have to go on to our all ready congested roads