Swiftway BRT: Issues highlighted in public consultation

cgcsb

Carawaystick wrote: »

You probably never had the big deal of not being able to walk, so I suppose it is grand for you.

If I couldn't walk I'd have a disabled friendly residence

Carawaystick

cgcsb wrote: »

If I couldn't walk I'd have a disabled friendly residence

Because everyone unable to walk can just up sticks and move house....
Especially if the handicap is temporary.


Alek, you'll be heartened to hear the nta accept cyclists will be using the non-brt specific bus lanes. The consultant I talked to at an open evening stated this. Given the alternative might be 5 pelican crossings to move 50m along the route...

Aard

I hope everybody made a submission before 5pm -- there's no complaining if you didn't!

Retailer

Admittedly so far I've only read the promotional material that has been sent out about switway.

To me it seems like the same thing as we have currently but with a fancy new name.

Take the route from swords for example. What are the benefits that the current bus lanes don't provide on that route?

The bottleneck that is the crossroads at Collins avenue will still be there right on up to Dorset street.

cgcsb

To be fair the brt route will bypass santry village which can cause delays. But still nothing that cant be done without buying a new fleet of bendy buses

AlekSmart

cgcsb wrote: »

To be fair the brt route will bypass santry village which can cause delays. But still nothing that cant be done without buying a new fleet of bendy buses

TBH,the hardware aspect of Swiftway is causing me most problems.

I'm of the belief that large capacity long-wheelbase or tri-axle Double Deck vehicles are preferable to Articulated Buses for Dublin's particular City-Centre focused routes.

Carawaystick

Retailer wrote: »

To me it seems like the same thing as we have currently but with a fancy new name.

Take the route from swords for example. What are the benefits that the current bus lanes don't provide on that route?

The bottleneck that is the crossroads at Collins avenue will still be there right on up to Dorset street.

Off bus ticketing.
bus arrives, everyone gets on, bus leaves.

instead of
bus arrives.
lad asks the driver does this bus go to X.
It doesn't
lad steps out of the way.
lass ask how much to Y
driver says Z
lass pays Z, slowly in dribs and drabs
Next customer alights....

If the nta don't sort out the cars blocking busses at Collins Ave west, then it's hardly a huge leap forward. the nta paid engineer at an open night suggested the cops might police this... I laughed at the simpleton....

cgcsb

Carawaystick wrote: »

Off bus ticketing.
bus arrives, everyone gets on, bus leaves.

instead of
bus arrives.
lad asks the driver does this bus go to X.
It doesn't
lad steps out of the way.
lass ask how much to Y
driver says Z
lass pays Z, slowly in dribs and drabs
Next customer alights....

off-board ticketing and enhanced passenger information is possible without buying a fleet of bendy buses.

Carawaystick wrote: »

If the nta don't sort out the cars blocking busses at Collins Ave west, then it's hardly a huge leap forward. the nta paid engineer at an open night suggested the cops might police this... I laughed at the simpleton....

It's unrealistic for the gardaí to do it, they'd need to have a presence at every busy junction, it's just not possible in terms of man power at a time when there is virtually 0 gardaí police presence in the busy streets of central Dublin.

The problem would sort it's self out with a camera on the front of buses and license plate recognition software. Once a suspect's vehicle is recognised, send them out a whopping fine. Economic incentivisation is a great enforcement tool.

pclive

A few years ago when the Gardai actually enforced bus lanes etc very few people drove in them now as the Gardai dont bother its a free for all same with red light running

Retailer

Carawaystick wrote: »

Off bus ticketing.
bus arrives, everyone gets on, bus leaves.

instead of
bus arrives.
lad asks the driver does this bus go to X.
It doesn't
lad steps out of the way.
lass ask how much to Y
driver says Z
lass pays Z, slowly in dribs and drabs
Next customer alights....

If the nta don't sort out the cars blocking busses at Collins Ave west, then it's hardly a huge leap forward. the nta paid engineer at an open night suggested the cops might police this... I laughed at the simpleton....

i both drive that route and get the bus.

the problem I find when driving towards the city approaching the junction with collins avenue is that cars turning left onto collins avenue towards Whitehall only have a few metres to get from the driving lane into the left turning lane.

as a result the majority of drivers turning left, dont follow the rules and encroach into the bus lane before it ends. I feel that if they didn't do that and stayed in the leftmost driving lane up until the end of the bus lane, there would be even bigger tailbacks way way past the port tunnel entrance. but i suppose rules are rules and strictly speaking they must be followed even though they don't offer the best solution.

even if the bus lane was empty 100% of the time, current buses and the new swiftway buses would still be queuing up at the end of that bus lane behind all the cars turning left, and all the cars trying to merge into the left lane after the bus lane ends.

i realise that all of the above is probably very confusing, particularly for people who don't use that route!!
but my point is that on that particular route, I don't see the benefit of the millions being spent when existing bottlenecks will still be in place.

ive searched but cant find a (rush hour) journey time comparison for an existing 41 compared to a swiftway between swords and the city centre.

antoinolachtnai

I asked the NTA about the speed. They made a ridiculous claim, that they could cut the route to 35 minutes.

This is in spite of the fact that the 41 doesn't cross any Luas lines, whilst the swiftway route will have to cross the Luas 6 times on its round-trip.

cgcsb

pclive wrote: »

A few years ago when the Gardai actually enforced bus lanes etc very few people drove in them now as the Gardai dont bother its a free for all same with red light running

I don't recall those days. Perhaps they were area specific

cgcsb

Retailer wrote: »

i both drive that route and get the bus.

the problem I find when driving towards the city approaching the junction with collins avenue is that cars turning left onto collins avenue towards Whitehall only have a few metres to get from the driving lane into the left turning lane.

as a result the majority of drivers turning left, dont follow the rules and encroach into the bus lane before it ends. I feel that if they didn't do that and stayed in the leftmost driving lane up until the end of the bus lane, there would be even bigger tailbacks way way past the port tunnel entrance. but i suppose rules are rules and strictly speaking they must be followed even though they don't offer the best solution.

even if the bus lane was empty 100% of the time, current buses and the new swiftway buses would still be queuing up at the end of that bus lane behind all the cars turning left, and all the cars trying to merge into the left lane after the bus lane ends.

i realise that all of the above is probably very confusing, particularly for people who don't use that route!!
but my point is that on that particular route, I don't see the benefit of the millions being spent when existing bottlenecks will still be in place.

ive searched but cant find a (rush hour) journey time comparison for an existing 41 compared to a swiftway between swords and the city centre.

The obvious solution is to remove the left turning lane and have separate traffic light signals so that bus forward doesn't conflict with cars left signal.

cgcsb

Retailer wrote: »

i both drive that route and get the bus.

the problem I find when driving towards the city approaching the junction with collins avenue is that cars turning left onto collins avenue towards Whitehall only have a few metres to get from the driving lane into the left turning lane.

as a result the majority of drivers turning left, dont follow the rules and encroach into the bus lane before it ends. I feel that if they didn't do that and stayed in the leftmost driving lane up until the end of the bus lane, there would be even bigger tailbacks way way past the port tunnel entrance. but i suppose rules are rules and strictly speaking they must be followed even though they don't offer the best solution.

even if the bus lane was empty 100% of the time, current buses and the new swiftway buses would still be queuing up at the end of that bus lane behind all the cars turning left, and all the cars trying to merge into the left lane after the bus lane ends.

i realise that all of the above is probably very confusing, particularly for people who don't use that route!!
but my point is that on that particular route, I don't see the benefit of the millions being spent when existing bottlenecks will still be in place.

ive searched but cant find a (rush hour) journey time comparison for an existing 41 compared to a swiftway between swords and the city centre.

The obvious solution is to remove the left turning lane and have separate traffic light signals so that bus forward doesn't conflict with cars left signal.

Carawaystick

cgcsb wrote: »

It's unrealistic for the gardaí to do it, they'd need to have a presence at every busy junction, it's just not possible in terms of man power at a time when there is virtually 0 gardaí police presence in the busy streets of central Dublin.

It's funny to heqr this when the last 2 mornings I cycled past here, there were actual cops from the "traffic corps" in their cars there, looking as cars jammed up the bus lane....

unrealistic when there were literally cops there...

Aard

It's not right to design garda presence into a transport system so that it works, if it can be avoided.

Kumsheen

cgcsb wrote: »

The problem would sort it's self out with a camera on the front of buses and license plate recognition software. Once a suspect's vehicle is recognised, send them out a whopping fine. Economic incentivisation is a great enforcement tool.

Well, look at the problem in the courts with the amount of GoSafe speeding cases being thrown out.

If they really want BRT to work, it needs to be centre running.

Carawaystick

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

I asked the NTA about the speed. They made a ridiculous claim, that they could cut the route to 35 minutes.

This is in spite of the fact that the 41 doesn't cross any Luas lines, whilst the swiftway route will have to cross the Luas 6 times on its round-trip.

The 33 can get from Abbey St terminus to Lusk in 32 mins leaving at 8pm.
The Cat&Cage widening is underway, so when that's done
and off bus ticketing, and averaging running time over the whole day, or managing to discount long running times somehow, sure, 35 mins is achievable.

LXFlyer

The 35 minutes is now quoted as being to O'Connell Bridge and 45 minutes to Earlsfort Terrace.

antoinolachtnai

35 minutes to o'connell bridge is an exceptionally fast time. It is 17 kilometres or so, so that is 25 km/hour including stops. The stop at the airport in particular will be pretty slow.

You can't really look at it in terms of off-peak timing. It's the peak timing that really matters.

Aard

Swords>City will not stop at the airport.

cgcsb

I think the NTA accept that rail is the only solution long term for the Swords corridor but there is just no capital available

antoinolachtnai

It is still extremely fast, even if it doesn't stop at the airport.

Carawaystick

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

It is still extremely fast, even if it doesn't stop at the airport.

It's not that fast at all, A bus to Lusk, with on board ticketing can beat the proposed average speed to Applewood

The Cat&Cage widening is underway now, and with Santry bypassed and the traffic lights just inside the M50 on the r132 reconfigured to reduce the ludicrous red time, I can't see why it would take so long.

cdebru

Its not that fast, and remember it will have far less stops than the current service, also the 35mins is average time, the vast majority of journeys are off peak,
What would be interesting is predicted peak journey time, and what is the average journey time at present with no, off bus ticketing, more stops and less priority, IMO you could achieve most of the advantages of BRT ( or what the NTA is calling BRT) without spending millions on bendi buses, and resurfacing, roadworks and infrastructure to accommodate bendibuses.

cgcsb

The bendy buses really don't add any value that can't be done with double doored double decker buses, which are being rolled out at present.

Carawaystick

cgcsb wrote: »

The bendy buses really don't add any value that can't be done with double doored double decker buses, which are being rolled out at present.

3 doors vs 2 doors and no bottleneck stair slowing passengers boarding or alighting from upstairs

Kumsheen

Carawaystick wrote: »

3 doors vs 2 doors and no bottleneck stair slowing passengers boarding or alighting from upstairs

They are also better for reduced mobility passengers, buggies,prams and people with shopping.
But i still think the main reason they are getting them is for visual perception purposes, (It's not a bus as you know it, it's a luas on wheels).

monument

Kumsheen wrote: »

They are also better for reduced mobility passengers, buggies,prams and people with shopping.

Carawaystick wrote: »

3 doors vs 2 doors and no bottleneck stair slowing passengers boarding or alighting from upstairs

Combined, those reasons are good enough.

cgcsb

Carawaystick wrote: »

3 doors vs 2 doors and no bottleneck stair slowing passengers boarding or alighting from upstairs

a small problem when you consider that people exiting from upstairs can alight directly from the middle doors. If that's the only big + for buying an entire fleet of new bendy buses, then I don't think it's a valid use of money. The benefits of the bendibus are only marginal compared the enormous cost of a new fleet.

antoinolachtnai

cdebru wrote: »

Its not that fast, and remember it will have far less stops than the current service, also the 35mins is average time, the vast majority of journeys are off peak,
What would be interesting is predicted peak journey time, and what is the average journey time at present with no, off bus ticketing, more stops and less priority, IMO you could achieve most of the advantages of BRT ( or what the NTA is calling BRT) without spending millions on bendi buses, and resurfacing, roadworks and infrastructure to accommodate bendibuses.

Absolutely, peak journey time is the only one that really matters. I presumed the 35 minutes was some sort of peak time?

It is still very fast, faster than luas, I think, or certainly very close.

cdebru

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Absolutely, peak journey time is the only one that really matters. I presumed the 35 minutes was some sort of peak time?

It is still very fast, faster than luas, I think, or certainly very close.

Unless they specifically say peak time I would presume they are using averages to put a better gloss on spending g so much money if 35 was peak then off peak would be under 30 probably 25 which is unlikely, buses can cover a lot of distance in little time off peak especially with already limited stops. The luas on the other hand is stopping irrespective at each stop so doesn't benefit as much from off peak

Carawaystick

cgcsb wrote: »

a small problem when you consider that people exiting from upstairs can alight directly from the middle doors. If that's the only big + for buying an entire fleet of new bendy buses, then I don't think it's a valid use of money. The benefits of the bendibus are only marginal compared the enormous cost of a new fleet.

But everybody upstairs needs to funnel through a narrow stairwell, and then people boarding need to climb up the stairs. And people downstairs need to see if there's space upstairs etc.

The last few busses I was on, the doors are not directly at the bottom of the stairwell any more, so you have to turn left or right pausing to check if the centre doors are open, after years of them never being open being engrained into Dublin bus users.

Retailer

the more i read about this, the more I cant help but think its going to be a massive white elephant. another e-voting machine fiasco!

Admittedly I have no expert knowledge in transport or transport planning but i just dont see the long term benefits of this.

The Swords express service for example. does that not work well? why not expand that service and maybe even subsidise it a little bit (dont know if thats possible or even legal). Would that not save millions?

Like I said I'm far far from being an expert but on this particular route I can only see it being money flushed down the toilet

Calina

cgcsb wrote: »

The obvious solution is to remove the left turning lane and have separate traffic light signals so that bus forward doesn't conflict with cars left signal.

And then what? Quite a lot of traffic turns left there. Where do you propose to send it?

I should, at this point, admit that I see Swords BRT as a cop out. Doing BRT because "something" must be done is really a lousy use of funds when we'll wind up having to build some sort of rail link anyway.

LXFlyer

Retailer wrote: »

the more i read about this, the more I cant help but think its going to be a massive white elephant. another e-voting machine fiasco!

Admittedly I have no expert knowledge in transport or transport planning but i just dont see the long term benefits of this.

The Swords express service for example. does that not work well? why not expand that service and maybe even subsidise it a little bit (dont know if thats possible or even legal). Would that not save millions?

Like I said I'm far far from being an expert but on this particular route I can only see it being money flushed down the toilet

Swords Express serves Swords. Full stop.

BRT is about providing an enhanced service along the entire Swords Road corridor.

There is a massive difference.

LXFlyer

Carawaystick wrote: »

3 doors vs 2 doors and no bottleneck stair slowing passengers boarding or alighting from upstairs

monument wrote: »

Combined, those reasons are good enough.

cgcsb wrote: »

a small problem when you consider that people exiting from upstairs can alight directly from the middle doors. If that's the only big + for buying an entire fleet of new bendy buses, then I don't think it's a valid use of money. The benefits of the bendibus are only marginal compared the enormous cost of a new fleet.

I have to say that having read the full NTA report, I'm questioning the zeal with which they are choosing articulated vehicles for such long routes.

These vehicles will have approximately 45-50 seats, which means 70-75 standees. Their own figures indicate that there will be large numbers of standees on the vehicles from Swords by-pass to O'Connell Street at peak times. That's 30 minutes standing on a bus.

Now whatever way you paint it that is not an improvement in comfort levels over the current service.

The articulated vehicles are in my view far better suited to shorter journeys, for example 20 minutes either side of the city centre, but not 45 minutes. They might be suited for the Airport-City route.

So what could be used? Well there are MAN built tri-axle double decks operating in Berlin on long distance express routes that feature:
- Three doors (front, centre and rear)
- Two staircases (front and rear)
- Fully accessible
- Seating for 83 people and space for 37 standees (the same overall capacity as the articulated vehicles).

An example is pictured here:
https://m.flickr.com/#/photos/ian_yvr/6954246085/

These vehicles would in my opinion deliver a more appropriate level of comfort for such a long commute, while delivering the required capacity.

The articulated vehicles could be used on the inner sections of each corridor.

cgcsb

Calina wrote: »

And then what? Quite a lot of traffic turns left there. Where do you propose to send it?

It queues in the traffic lane along with straight ahead traffic and goes whenever there's a green left arrow(which by design won't conflict with a bus straight ahead green)

expectationlost

http://137.191.240.179/documents/s12439/Item%207%20-%20Bus%20Rapid%20Transit%20Swiftway.pdf Question: Councillor D. Smith
“To ask the Chief Executive if Fingal County Council made a submission
to the NTA in respect of Bus Rapid Transit Swiftway and if a copy of such
a submission could be circulated at this meeting?”
Reply:
Copies of formal submissions made by planning authority to National Transport
Authority re Bus Rapid Transit for Swords are attached

http://137.191.240.179/documents/s12440/Item%207a%20-%20Bus%20Rapid%20Transit%20Swiftway.pdf

http://137.191.240.179/documents/s12441/Item%207b%20-%20Bus%20Rapid%20Transit%20Swiftway.pdf

_Kaiser_

This whole concept seems like a massive waste of money TBH .. a typically Irish example of flash over substance.

There's no valid reason to cause massive disruption on already congested roads, and spend a fortune on glorified bendi-buses, for the minimal (if any) real benefits "CitySwift 2.0" will offer other than to be seeing to do something and justify people's positions on these expensive boards and of course the "consultants"/"fact-finding" junkets.

All that's needed here is the NTA to start really pushing DB to deliver on the routes that serve these areas. Stop fecking about with more of these smaller-than-the-AVs-they're-replacing EV/SG buses and expand the tri-axle fleet on the major arteries and install ANPR cameras capable of issuing fines to enforce bus lanes.

Far less wasteful and more effective than trying to do "LUAS-lite" IMO plus it could be done in a fraction of the time!

cdebru

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

This whole concept seems like a massive waste of money TBH .. a typically Irish example of flash over substance.

There's no valid reason to cause massive disruption on already congested roads, and spend a fortune on glorified bendi-buses, for the minimal (if any) real benefits "CitySwift 2.0" will offer other than to be seeing to do something and justify people's positions on these expensive boards and of course the "consultants"/"fact-finding" junkets.

All that's needed here is the NTA to start really pushing DB to deliver on the routes that serve these areas. Stop fecking about with more of these smaller-than-the-AVs-they're-replacing EV/SG buses and expand the tri-axle fleet on the major arteries and install ANPR cameras capable of issuing fines to enforce bus lanes.

Far less wasteful and more effective than trying to do "LUAS-lite" IMO plus it could be done in a fraction of the time!

Agreed with very little money, but the necessary will and commitment of those involved particularly the Gardai they could achieve what is planned by BRT, remove some stops adjust some junctions and most importantly of all actually enforce the traffic laws, stop parking, driving, stopping in bus lanes. At the moment the Gardai seem to have completely given up on actually policing parking offenses and bus lane enfringements and view it as the clampers job, where as the clampers seem to concentrate mostly on revenue protection of parking spaces and ignore cars parked in loading bays of vans parked in bus stops while an empty loading bay is 20 feet away.

cgcsb

I'd be a fan of camera enforcement. Regardless of how many gardaí there are, there's never one when you need one. Have a camera on the front of the bus take a snap of license plates of lane blockers, send them a €300 fine in the post. The message will be got eventually. Use the fine money to improve the bus system.

Dub13

cgcsb wrote: »

I'd be a fan of camera enforcement. Regardless of how many gardaí there are, there's never one when you need one. Have a camera on the front of the bus take a snap of license plates of lane blockers, send them a €300 fine in the post. The message will be got eventually. Use the fine money to improve the bus system.

Has this been done in any other city's...? Seems like a great idea and would surly pay for itself very soon.

cgcsb

Dub13 wrote: »

Has this been done in any other city's...? Seems like a great idea and would surly pay for itself very soon.

Not to my knowledge but the technology exists, the same should be done for the college green bus gate.

Van.Bosch

cgcsb wrote: »

Not to my knowledge but the technology exists, the same should be done for the college green bus gate.

I've seen it done in other cities but can't recall where. It is such a simple but very effective way of doing it.

monument

Dub13 wrote: »

Has this been done in any other city's...? Seems like a great idea and would surly pay for itself very soon.

"To enforce Transit Only lanes, San Francisco uses forward facing cameras on buses. If your vehicle is stopped or parked within a transit only lane, the bus camera will take a photograph of the vehicle's license plate and a citation will be issued to the vehicle’s owner."

http://www.sfmta.com/services/permits-citations/camera-enforcement

In co-operation with Transport for London, JAI has developed a bus lane enforcement system using bus-mounted cameras that operate automatically. Today, 400 bus lane enforcement systems are installed in buses with daily operation in central London, helping to deliver a more reliable and reduced journey time.

"Ninety buses across 12 SBS Transit bus services that ply along routes with bus lanes will be fitted with video cameras which will be used to record bus lane infringements. The cameras will work in tandem with the current warden scheme and ensure that bus lanes remain clear during operating hours."
http://sgtransport.blogspot.ie/2008/05/more-bus-lanes-from-2-june-2008.html

"The JAI cameras are built into the London buses and record twin images onto a video. One image is a close-up of the rear license plate of vehicles in the bus lane, while the other records the surrounding traffic conditions in the bus lane and the adjacent lane. The cameras thus identify both the offenders and possible mitigating circumstances that could be taken into consideration."
http://www.jai.com/en/company/applications/buslaneenforcement

Had not heard of London using it before now?

UK councils mainly seem to use car / van enforcement, over on-bus enforcement -- car / van enforcement seems to be very effective in general.

markpb

Technology is not the problem here. We don't do permanent enforcement of the law in Ireland, it's just not in our culture. We'd prefer that the Gardai do occasional, high-profile enforcement of a single part of the road traffic acts and then go back to doing their "proper" jobs. Don't expect BRT enforcement to be any different.

cdebru

markpb wrote: »

Technology is not the problem here. We don't do permanent enforcement of the law in Ireland, it's just not in our culture. We'd prefer that the Gardai do occasional, high-profile enforcement of a single part of the road traffic acts and then go back to doing their "proper" jobs. Don't expect BRT enforcement to be any different.

Which is exactly why it is a huge waste of money, without enforcement it will be nothing more than an expensive QBC. If the Gardai got of their arse and enforced the parking and bus lane regulations we wouldn't need to even talk about this crappy 3rd rate brt.

Calina

Do we have any transit only lanes in Dublin? Most buslanes run into not being buslanes just before junctions?

Transit only to me means no cars, ever, end to end. To my knowledge, none of our buslanes come close to being transit only.

LXFlyer

Calina wrote: »

Do we have any transit only lanes in Dublin? Most buslanes run into not being buslanes just before junctions?

Transit only to me means no cars, ever, end to end. To my knowledge, none of our buslanes come close to being transit only.

Just the few contra-flow bus lanes - Custom House Quay, Eden Quay, Upper Camden Street, St Stephen's Green East, Lower Leeson Street, Earlsfort Terrace.