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PVC expansion problems

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  • 13-08-2014 7:58pm
    #1
    theoptimist
    Registered Users Posts: 45 ✭


    I just found this on the 'things you wish you did thread'
    Deleted User wrote: »
    Avoid black PVC-U doors & windows, they expand and contract quite a large amount, I've found that the patio doors stick in the heat and are draughty in the winter.
    I have to adjust them twice a year now! The missus got some black blinds to match and they act like solar heaters in the summer as well (help heat the house in the winter though)


    Anyone else have this experience?

    Bit worrying as I'm about to order mine in black! (I wanted Accoya but it was never going to happen budget-wise).

    Not crazy about PVC but in the darker colours I'm fairly impressed, it's pretty hard to tell from timber (In white or cream the black seals are a dead give away)
    Tagged:


«1

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    #2
    theoptimist
    Registered Users Posts: 45 ✭theoptimist


    Now I've started looking I've found a huge amount of stuff online about thermal conductivity of PVC, people talking about problems opening and closing doors in hot weather.
    How much of a problem is this? I have two sets of south facing french doors.
    It sounds like this is a problem generally with PVC, not just with dark colours, but obviously dark colours are going to absorb more heat, so how much worse is the problem going to be with a dark colour?


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    #3
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,161 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    I had black abd didn't have any issues with expansion, however the front door did was replaced 5 times due to leaks and drafts, so check carefully after installation if you are in a windy location.

    No good having triple glazing if air is pouring around the edges of your doors and windows, not to mention water!


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    #4
    theoptimist
    Registered Users Posts: 45 ✭theoptimist


    Thanks Greebo, Thats so great to hear, I would really like black so the more people who say they have it and no problems the better!!
    Does any of your pvc get a lot of sun? south facing?


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    #5
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,161 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Only the front was in black (bog oak) and it had afternoon and evening sun.
    But I would check the specs as all may not be equal.


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    #6
    galwaytt
    Registered Users Posts: 12,776 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    I have two hinged patio doors, facing south - white uPVC - and I have this problem with both. Very annoying.

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



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    #7
    hexosan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,736 ✭✭✭hexosan


    Met with reps from Grady & Munster and both claimed it wasn't an issue, but then I suppose they would.


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    #8
    theoptimist
    Registered Users Posts: 45 ✭theoptimist


    galwaytt wrote: »
    I have two hinged patio doors, facing south - white uPVC - and I have this problem with both. Very annoying.

    I'm kinda happy to hear this problem with white pvc, (sorrygalwaytt!) at least I won't feel like I've chosen looks over function if I go with black!


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    #9
    theoptimist
    Registered Users Posts: 45 ✭theoptimist


    hexosan wrote: »
    Met with reps from Grady & Munster and both claimed it wasn't an issue, but then I suppose they would.

    Wonder how can they say this won't a problem when it seems to be a widespread problem with PVC? Surely there is some kind of warranty with all the main suppliers? Or is this only an issue with the cheapest/lowest quality PVC?

    I heard somewhere else though that the amount of expansion/contraction depends on how reinforced the frame is, assume that varies with the quality of the frame.

    I haven't actually asked the MJ rep about warranty/expansion yet...I'll talk to her tomorrow...


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    #10
    martinn123
    Registered Users Posts: 2,300 ✭✭✭martinn123


    galwaytt wrote: »
    I have two hinged patio doors, facing south - white uPVC - and I have this problem with both. Very annoying.

    I have a Conservatory, white, facing south, built in 2001, never moved a millimeter, no issue with French doors of top opening sashes
    My Neighbour has same in Wood-grain, it creaks, bangs, and he gets the doors adjusted annually, as it expands and contracts like hell.
    hexosan wrote:
    Met with reps from Grady & Munster and both claimed it wasn't an issue, but then I suppose they would

    Not part of the Sales Training.

    Wood-grain, Light Oak, and especially Bog Oak PVC is likely to expand and contract, in direct, Southern Sunlight,
    White is less likely as it does not absorb as much heat.

    Put a PVC Patio, in front of a PVC Door on a South Facing Front of house = disaster.


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    #11
    theoptimist
    Registered Users Posts: 45 ✭theoptimist


    martinn123 wrote: »
    I have a Conservatory, white, facing south, built in 2001, never moved a millimeter, no issue with French doors of top opening sashes
    My Neighbour has same in Wood-grain, it creaks, bangs, and he gets the doors adjusted annually, as it expands and contracts like hell.


    Not part of the Sales Training.

    Wood-grain, Light Oak, and especially Bog Oak PVC is likely to expand and contract, in direct, Southern Sunlight,
    White is less likely as it does not absorb as much heat.

    Put a PVC Patio, in front of a PVC Door on a South Facing Front of house = disaster.


    Right so... if wood grain is bad, black is likely to be worse!!

    Although as some people with white pvc seem to also to have this problem, how much of it is due to the colour and how much to the quality?

    Is it possible your neighbour just has lower quality PVC?


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    #12
    martinn123
    Registered Users Posts: 2,300 ✭✭✭martinn123


    theoptimist wrote: »
    Right so... if wood grain is bad, black is likely to be worse!!

    Although as some people with white pvc seem to also to have this problem, how much of it is due to the colour and how much to the quality?

    Is it possible your neighbour just has lower quality PVC?

    it's a combination of the Colour, White=Good, Woodgrain= worse, Black=Worst

    and the amount of reinforcing, inside the profile, plus the quality of the PVC.

    In white, Deeplas White is the best as its a glossy white, and reflects back the heat most efficiently, other whites are a more Matt finish.


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    #13
    fatty pang
    Registered Users Posts: 326 ✭✭fatty pang


    theoptimist wrote: »
    Surely there is some kind of warranty with all the main suppliers? Or is this only an issue with the cheapest/lowest quality PVC?

    Window warranties really need to be read very carefully. If something is not mentioned there is a reason for it. If something is mentioned you want to be very clear about what typical caveats that are put in place.


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    #14
    fatty pang
    Registered Users Posts: 326 ✭✭fatty pang


    martinn123 wrote: »
    Not part of the Sales Training.

    God forbid


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    #15
    fatty pang
    Registered Users Posts: 326 ✭✭fatty pang


    martinn123 wrote: »
    it's a combination of the Colour, White=Good, Woodgrain= worse, Black=Worst

    and the amount of reinforcing, inside the profile, plus the quality of the PVC.

    In white, Deeplas White is the best as its a glossy white, and reflects back the heat most efficiently, other whites are a more Matt finish.

    Which white is it that has the tendency to go 'pink' ?


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    #16
    martinn123
    Registered Users Posts: 2,300 ✭✭✭martinn123


    fatty pang wrote: »
    Which white is it that has the tendency to go 'pink' ?

    Recycled PVC, avoid at all costs.


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    #17
    fatty pang
    Registered Users Posts: 326 ✭✭fatty pang


    martinn123 wrote: »
    Recycled PVC, avoid at all costs.

    Can't do that....It's the justification behind it's Green Guide A rating !!!


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    #18
    theoptimist
    Registered Users Posts: 45 ✭theoptimist


    fatty pang wrote: »
    Which white is it that has the tendency to go 'pink' ?

    Ahh no! so I have a choice between black PVC doors that don't work and white that go pink!! how lovely, I might have to turn to a life of crime to pay for timber windows....!!


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    #19
    scwazrh
    Registered Users Posts: 2,672 ✭✭✭scwazrh


    "Pinking" as it is called used to be common in a lot of cheaper pvc .Now that manufacturers are aware of it they take precautions against it.You should not have any issue with pinking on white pvc windows provided you buy from an established company.The pvc roofline products that we install are covered by the manufacturer with a 50 yr guarantee against colour loss , so that gives an idea of how well manufacturers can control the problem.

    With pvc expansion , all materials expand and contract to a degree but I have never seen a pvc door expand to the extent that it wont close properly.So again pick a reputable company to supply and install the product and you should be fine.


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    #20
    fatty pang
    Registered Users Posts: 326 ✭✭fatty pang


    scwazrh wrote: »
    The pvc roofline products that we install are covered by the manufacturer with a 50 yr guarantee against colour loss , so that gives an idea of how well manufacturers can control the problem.

    50 year guarantee against bleaching is not a huge issue with white pvc. What about brown soffit/facia ? 50 years ? 30...25 ??
    I see an awful lot of that bleached within a few years.


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    #21
    scwazrh
    Registered Users Posts: 2,672 ✭✭✭scwazrh


    50 yr on white , 10 yr on woodgrain


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    #22
    hexosan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,736 ✭✭✭hexosan


    scwazrh wrote: »
    50 yr on white , 10 yr on woodgrain

    What about black.


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    #23
    theoptimist
    Registered Users Posts: 45 ✭theoptimist


    Thanks guys, this is really useful. I feel a bit ill when i think of all the important questions i would have neglected to ask the company if I'd ordered the window before starting this thread.

    hexosan wrote: »
    What about black.


    yes, I'd be interested to know the answer to this question too


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    #24
    martinn123
    Registered Users Posts: 2,300 ✭✭✭martinn123


    martinn123 wrote: »
    Recycled PVC, avoid at all costs.
    fatty pang wrote:
    Can't do that....It's the justification behind it's Green Guide A rating !!!

    Just to clarify, the vast, vast majority of PVC windows are made from virgin upvc, which is extruded into lengths in a chemical process, and is fine.

    Manufacturers are aware of a small number of cases where discoloration took place due to an error in the chemical mix.

    Recycled PVC however is different. As the name suggests the PVC is on a second trip, having been say a window previously, and been ground up, and recycled, and made into a length of PVC again

    Impurities in the recycling process, lead to the pvc being unstable and likely to discolour

    Some Co's promote this product, as a Green initiative, however in my experience avoid it in Windows, doors etc, as it is not stable.

    Do not confuse this with a product which is marketed as ''Recyclable'' and carries some sort of Green Sticker,or Green Guide A Rating, or the like.


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    #25
    galwaytt
    Registered Users Posts: 12,776 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    hexosan wrote: »
    Met with reps from Grady & Munster and both claimed it wasn't an issue, but then I suppose they would.

    well then, the manufacturer from the above, who made mine, can come & have a look at mine and tell me why mine behave as they do........they made 'em.......... :mad:

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



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    #26
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 31,119 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Just a quick follow up on this thread as it was started by a quote of mine.
    I still have the same problem with the doors expanding in the summer but I don't bother adjusting them any more I now pull the two doors closed together and they "pop in".


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    #27
    fatty pang
    Registered Users Posts: 326 ✭✭fatty pang


    scwazrh wrote: »
    50 yr on white , 10 yr on woodgrain

    Hardly a vote of confidence for colours other then white.


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    #28
    scwazrh
    Registered Users Posts: 2,672 ✭✭✭scwazrh


    hexosan wrote: »
    What about black.

    10 yr on black


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    #29
    paddydriver
    Registered Users Posts: 2,082 ✭✭✭paddydriver


    Just got new windows and doors throughout house in Rosewood woodgrain PVC and the warranty on anything woodgrain is only 7 years whereas everything else is 10 years. Anything I looked at in the showroom was woodgrain so wondering why they bother saying 10 year warranty.

    Only been in a few weeks so cannot report on any issues yet. The 2 x double doors are at the back and get no sunshine, I think these would be the one's likely to be most impacted but won't be getting any sunshine to know.


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    #30
    hexosan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,736 ✭✭✭hexosan


    Spoke with the Grady rep and basically the 10yr guarantee is broken down into 1yr for everything and the remaining 9yrs is only for glass leaking, fogging or laminate colourful pealing off the PVC.
    Claimed this is similar with most of the main PVC suppliers


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    #31
    theoptimist
    Registered Users Posts: 45 ✭theoptimist


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Just a quick follow up on this thread as it was started by a quote of mine.
    I still have the same problem with the doors expanding in the summer but I don't bother adjusting them any more I now pull the two doors closed together and they "pop in".

    Thanks Dolanbaker, sorry for dredging up that old post of yours but it was the first I'd heard of this problem!
    Glad to hear the problem hasn't got any worse, and that the doors still function!

    Sooo... would you buy white pvc if you could go back?!


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