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Treat them mean and keep them keen
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I dunno RD. If there is a chain it's a long and flexible one and culture and environment makes the links.
Take type 2 diabetes(bear with me...
), it apparently has a large genetic component, it's also down to our evolutionary history. It's one of the biggest health problems facing modern humanity, yet non western civilisation folks almost never get it. Take depression. Large genetic component and again it's a real growing health problem facing modern humanity, yet some populations with the same genetics don't get it to nearly the same extent.
Just as lifestyle and environment is a major pressure for diabetes(and I would contend the same for depression), Narcissitic type behaviour is more selected for in the modern western world. The 20th century was the century of the self, the individual, the everyman. Common sense seemed to show that self esteem and feelings of individual specialness was the ultimate goal for self development. Sounds plausible but pretty much all of the evilest men in history had these features. The group, the culture bows to the individual(or appears to). Add in the 21st century with social media and the like and it is IMHO a major selective pressure in favour of narcissism. Everyone is "special". Special has been made universal, it has been democratised. Special has lost much of its meaning. Look at fame. Once you were famous for actually doing something, now people are famous just for being famous. All are special and all opinions are valid and often trump facts if enough share the opinion. A culture of public jockeying for likes "selfies". The name says it all. No wonder narcissism is growing.
I'm not so sure that's the counter argument.0 -
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People fancy who they fancy - most, if not the majority of the time couples have the same levels of attractiveness as each other, most of the time. There are always exceptions, but they are just that, exceptions not the norm.
I also love how that argument is trotted out 100% of the time with the woman as the villain - ie the superhot supermodel who won't go out with short ugly guys. It's never the super hot model man with a short ugly woman. I have never seen it argued that way!
Preferences are individual, and not an indicment (sp?) on a whole gender. I am a tall woman, and I like guys who are at least as tall as me for example. There are guys out there who don't like tall women, this does not concern or bother me. But always the short men are made out to be victimised by that choice, as in your example there (replace hotness with height). It's preference, it's NOT personal. Everyone can't fancy everyone. Nothing would ever get done!
I could have used the example of the hot man with the short ugly woman but this thread is called "Treat them mean keep them keen" which is a phrase used to describe a man's treatment of the woman in a dating/relationship context. I have no desire to paint women as villains at all.
The bits of your post i have emboldened completely prove my point, so thanks
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Gracelyn Enough Robe wrote: »Not sure about the DENNIS system, mostly because of...the implication :pac:
But the implication is where the system gets its power
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I could have used the example of the hot man with the short ugly woman but this thread is called "Treat them mean keep them keen" which is a phrase used to describe a man's treatment of the woman in a dating/relationship context. I have no desire to paint women as villains at all.
The bits of your post i have emboldened completely prove my point, so thanks
They don't prove your point at all! You said how come hot women don't go out with short ugly guys. I said actually most couples have the same levels of attractiveness, there is rarely an imbalance either way. Which disproves your point.
And the fact that the treat em mean keep em keen thing is directed at women all the time is another, larger argument around gender equality, OT for this thread.
And am I as a woman not allowed to expess a preference in who I fancy? I am to start fancying short men coz it's unfair on them that i don't? Please. Are you telling me you express no preferences on your preferred partners? There's nothing in particular you like or dislike? Come on.
Steadyeddy, the woman is painted as the villain in that example as she is seen as a bitch for not going out with or excluding short ugly guys as a beautiful woman. It is rarely (i have never seen it) given the other way round. The woman in that example is judged harshly on two counts. 1. No matter how attractive she is she should want short ugly guys, how dare she exercise preference 2. She is a bitch coz she won't go out with short ugly guys. The responsibility is always on the woman, not on the guy in this example. She is denounced a bitch/shallow etc. But the other way round is never mentioned, and if it is it's said 'he could do better'.0 -
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Depends entirely on the context and the people involved SE. Some women do respond better to a certain level of take it or leave it.
Plus I would say that for a few guys out there not treating "them" mean means gushing over women, just because they're women. IMHO the latter is sexist in the extreme. It's treating women as different, just because they happen to have a vagina and the guy wants access to that. In some ways the self proclaimed "nice guy" is a liar and a chancer. He's fronting an idea of "nice" and harmless(hardly a vibe to rouse the blood), while looking for more. "I want to be your frrrieeeeend, why don't you want to shag me" BS. At least the prickish "bad boy" player type is honest about what he wants. If as a woman you have such "friends" around you and you know they want more, a prick who is direct can be a breath of fresh air because of his honesty*. At least you know where you stand. With the let's just be friends men you don't. There's an ulterior motive going on. And that IMHO is why a fair few ladies go for the bad boy, it's not because he treats her badly, it's more because he's more honest and she knows where she stands.
My 2 cents anyway.
*and the I must tame him vibe.
Nicely put. seriously It's very truue that some self professed nice guys are just creepers, I have known some to look for a sympathy you-know-what 
Actually, bad boys are often quick thinking and street wise which is attractive too. Its nice when someone can handle themselves, and use their wits to get them out of a tight spot. That type are rarely shy or reserved or, well..boring..in any area of a relationship, and there are obvious reasons why that is attractive.0 -
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Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,170 Mod ✭✭✭✭
Join Date:Posts: 59098
Aye and as Gadetra pointed out it goes both ways. In general you won't see good looking men with plainer partners. Though I would say IMH and IME anyway it happens slightly more often. Maybe because if a good looking guy lacks confidence he rates himself down? I dunno.I couldnt disagree more with this aspect. I see biological programming evident in these things all the time. Stand in the pub and look at how many beautiful girls have their arms around small ugly guys. Or how many supermodels are dating shelf-stackers from Tescoes? The biological programming is everywhere and present in pretty much every male-female sexual relationship.
To be fair to the "nice guys" who are taking a battering here, it's not surprising there are a few about. For a start the media paints a distorted picture of how a guy should act romantically. A lot of general romcoms are wish fulfillment exercises where the geeky awkward guy gets the babe by being her friend, running after her, consoling her, making huge romantic gestures before they actually get romantic etc until the last reel where she dumps the rich handsome cad for the geeky guy. That's a strong meme in our culture. Contrast that with literature aimed primarily at women* where the handsome cad is the hero. Hell 50 shades of grey sells like gangbusters and have a look at the hero bloke in that. Even sex and the city again primarily aimed at the female demographic and look how yer wan's Mr Big acts. He flits into her life, bonks her and flits out again and again he's the prize, his name says it all.FullblownRose wrote: »Nicely put. seriously It's very truue that some self professed nice guys are just creepers, I have known some to look for a sympathy you-know-what
Basically lads, don't take romance advice if Ben Stiller is pimping it.
So how do guys learn? There's all sorts of conflicting guff out there, from romcoms to cheesy pickup "artists". Not easy if you're a 20 year old bloke trying to learn and a woman you fancy is in regular contact with you, emotionally connects with and looks for consolation and advice from you. You're just waiting for the last reel of the flic when she finally realises. When it goes south you're told "just be yourself", "there's the right person out there for you" etc. Not easy really.
On the treat em mean keep em keen cliche I always saw it as gender free funny enough. Maybe it's a generational thing and it's more thought of as one way these days?
*primarily aimed at. I know loadsa women who either can't stand that stuff or read/watch it as mental popcorn for the craic. They don't take it seriously.Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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Aye and as Gadetra pointed out it goes both ways. In general you won't see good looking men with plainer partners. Though I would say IMH and IME anyway it happens slightly more often. Maybe because if a good looking guy lacks confidence he rates himself down? I dunno.
To be fair to the "nice guys" who are taking a battering here, it's not surprising there are a few about. For a start the media paints a distorted picture of how a guy should act romantically. A lot of general romcoms are wish fulfillment exercises where the geeky awkward guy gets the babe by being her friend, running after her, consoling her, making huge romantic gestures before they actually get romantic etc until the last reel where she dumps the rich handsome cad for the geeky guy. That's a strong meme in our culture. Contrast that with literature aimed primarily at women* where the handsome cad is the hero. Hell 50 shades of grey sells like gangbusters and have a look at the hero bloke in that. Even sex and the city again primarily aimed at the female demographic and look how yer wan's Mr Big acts. He flits into her life, bonks her and flits out again and again he's the prize, his name says it all.
Basically lads, don't take romance advice if Ben Stiller is pimping it.
So how do guys learn? There's all sorts of conflicting guff out there, from romcoms to cheesy pickup "artists". Not easy if you're a 20 year old bloke trying to learn and a woman you fancy is in regular contact with you, emotionally connects with and looks for consolation and advice from you. You're just waiting for the last reel of the flic when she finally realises. When it goes south you're told "just be yourself", "there's the right person out there for you" etc. Not easy really.
On the treat em mean keep em keen cliche I always saw it as gender free funny enough. Maybe it's a generational thing and it's more thought of as one way these days?
*primarily aimed at. I know loadsa women who either can't stand that stuff or read/watch it as mental popcorn for the craic. They don't take it seriously.
I never understood the weight placed on the 50 shades sales. I haven't read the book, saw the trailer... it looks like Bridget Jones meets American Psycho.
It's just a fantasy. Look how much violence sells to the male audience... doesn't mean they are violent does it?
Weird correlation tbh.0 -
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Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,170 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 59098
Well... Violence sells to men yes, but it's more about being the hero. The hard as nails, cool, James Bond/Jack Reacher/Indiana Jones etc type. Men who are the drivers of their narrative, who women adore and men want to be, who are respected. It's a fantasy alright but the violence is only a tool of the hero type and watching films like that few men in the audience don't place themselves in the hero role and few wouldn't want to be him if only for a time. Video games aimed at men generally plug into this too. They can be the hero of another reality with the flick of a switch. Villains have this agency, they're the darker side, but they are also the drivers of their narrative and again are respected. For many men doing the daily grind who have little enough agency this is powerful stuff.I never understood the weight placed on the 50 shades sales. I haven't read the book, saw the trailer... it looks like Bridget Jones meets American Psycho.
It's just a fantasy. Look how much violence sells to the male audience... doesn't mean they are violent does it?
Weird correlation tbh.
Stuff aimed primarily at women tends to be less James Bond fantasy level. It's more rooted in the everyday(beyond the handsome pirate/sheik type stuff). Much of it is more redolent of their everyday lives and a woman is much more likely to meet her "Mr Big" at a business convention than a man is going to meet "Goldfinger" and kick off a car chase at the same convention. So the fantasy is more rooted in reality and given that kinda things popularity and how many memes repeat in the hero/object of the female protagonists desire it carries more into the real world of what she may desire. Not at the fantastical extreme of course.
Even in male fantasy stuff look at the women in the stories. They're usually younger, fit the current cultural ideal of female attractiveness, sexually available and dig the hero. Few men would turn down younger, gorgeous and sexually available women that dig them.Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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Well... Violence sells to men yes, but it's more about being the hero. The hard as nails, cool, James Bond/Jack Reacher/Indiana Jones etc type. Men who are the drivers of their narrative, who women adore and men want to be, who are respected. It's a fantasy alright but the violence is only a tool of the hero type and watching films like that few men in the audience don't place themselves in the hero role and few wouldn't want to be him if only for a time. Video games aimed at men generally plug into this too. They can be the hero of another reality with the flick of a switch. Villains have this agency, they're the darker side, but they are also the drivers of their narrative and again are respected. For many men doing the daily grind who have little enough agency this is powerful stuff.
Stuff aimed primarily at women tends to be less James Bond fantasy level. It's more rooted in the everyday(beyond the handsome pirate/sheik type stuff). Much of it is more redolent of their everyday lives and a woman is much more likely to meet her "Mr Big" at a business convention than a man is going to meet "Goldfinger" and kick off a car chase at the same convention. So the fantasy is more rooted in reality and given that kinda things popularity and how many memes repeat in the hero/object of the female protagonists desire it carries more into the real world of what she may desire. Not at the fantastical extreme of course.
Even in male fantasy stuff look at the women in the stories. They're usually younger, fit the current cultural ideal of female attractiveness, sexually available and dig the hero. Few men would turn down younger, gorgeous and sexually available women that dig them.
I dunno Wibbs, when I was growing up we all wanted to be Linda Carter in Wonder Woman and played it in the playground. We'd spin around and grab a rope and try to lasso someone.
Sex and the City just looks like Jane Austen wrapped up in Dolce and Gabbana.
I really don't know what happened between now and then.0 -
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That's interesting so its the ones that you don't fight with or argue with or not had a trouble in paradise moment or its going too well with each other and those that are very quiet or don't say much or those that are 50/50 about what they say is true/false.
I don't really know, but there is nothing I distrust more than passive aggression, so being that placid would make me nervous, but that could just be me and what I am used to. 0 -
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I don't really know, but there is nothing I distrust more than passive aggression, so being that placid would make me nervous, but that could just be me and what I am used to.
Ya I know what you mean some guys can be passive alright but didn't think the more placid ones would make you distrust them I thought them being laid back was a good thing but guess they could be hiding something and have a motive so by being too placid with a girl so his true self doesn't really show and that is easier for him to get what he wants by playing nice. The placidity is a mask which he hides behind. I thought some guys are just either nice or not nice by nature now I am beginning to wonder takes a lot longer to get to know someone yet people claim they know each other after a short space of time after meeting.0 -
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