"IF" a United Ireland did happen...(Mod warning in OP, stay on topic!))

katydid

tomwaterford wrote: »

This is true...but there is alot of Anglo Irish families who very much identified as British by and large got on well in the free state...im just pointing out that they are being manipulated and was always amazed something along the lines of a Sinn Fein for working class loyalist never emerged....surly there are leaders within loyalist community who arent completey dismissive of the poor/religious nutjobs...it's Llike this do people genuinely think that the dup aren't ramping up tension about the flag for the care of the poor or are theu targetng a very marginal seat held by the alliance party in Belfast??

Things have changed a lot since the days that the Anglo Irish had to integrate into the Free State. Attitudes have hardened since then.

I agree these people are being manipulated, but that doesn't help us down here, if we were to take them into our society.

Godge

katydid wrote: »

It might have made economic sense but it didn't make political sense and it still doesn't.

not only does it still not make political sense, it does not make economic sense now.

Sheldons Brain

Godge wrote: »

not only does it still not make political sense, it does not make economic sense now.

It would also make economic sense not to have many parts of Dublin, where do I get to vote to get rid of them?

DarkyHughes

katydid wrote: »

"Petty little differences"? Are you joking? You think the Troubles are down to "petty little differences!? That three thousand people died for "petty little differences"?

Over a million people up there have no desire to be part of this state. They are not going to wake up one and change their mind. The ones who riot at any threat to their precious Union Jack are not going to shrug their shoulders and give allegiance to the Tricolour.

You don't live in the real world if you think that.

Sure we fought a Civil war down here over petty little differences.

So you don't expect Loyalists to give allegiance to the Tricolour but you expect Nationalists who lived under a oppressive for decades to give allegiance to the flag that caused all this troubles in the first place.

ardmacha

DarkyHughes wrote: »

Sure we fought a Civil war down here over petty little differences.

So you don't expect Loyalists to give allegiance to the Tricolour but you expect Nationalists who lived under a oppressive for decades to give allegiance to the flag that caused all this troubles in the first place.

This is the exactly the point, it is considered unreasonable to expect those colonising the 6 counties to stop doing so, while it is considered perfectly reasonable that those who are the object of their colonisation should put up with indefinitely.

sparky42

ardmacha wrote: »

This is the exactly the point, it is considered unreasonable to expect those colonising the 6 counties to stop doing so, while it is considered perfectly reasonable that those who are the object of their colonisation should put up with indefinitely.

Come back to me when the Catholic bloc in NI support unification completely, latest polling at best gets you 30% of NI supporting a unification sometime in the next 30 years, so not even all the Catholics support it. And it falls to single digits if you asked for an immediate unification.

katydid

ardmacha wrote: »

This is the exactly the point, it is considered unreasonable to expect those colonising the 6 counties to stop doing so, while it is considered perfectly reasonable that those who are the object of their colonisation should put up with indefinitely.

Yes, because we are where we are. We can't turn back the clock.

katydid

DarkyHughes wrote: »

Sure we fought a Civil war down here over petty little differences.

So you don't expect Loyalists to give allegiance to the Tricolour but you expect Nationalists who lived under a oppressive for decades to give allegiance to the flag that caused all this troubles in the first place.

They could move here if they don't like it. What the nationalists in the North want or don't want is irrelevant to me; what concerns me is the Republic of Ireland. If nutters from the North would come into this republic and cause trouble, I want nothing to do with them. It's all very well saying the nationalists would be happy as Larry; they aren't the problem.

Sheldons Brain

katydid wrote: »

They could move here if they don't like it. What the nationalists in the North want or don't want is irrelevant to me; what concerns me is the Republic of Ireland. If nutters from the North would come into this republic and cause trouble, I want nothing to do with them. It's all very well saying the nationalists would be happy as Larry; they aren't the problem.

What homeless people want or don't want is irrelevant to me, why should I have to worry about people I have nothing in common with and pay taxes for them?
Perhaps we should form a Mé Fein party, feck everyone else, but then we probably couldn't agree on a common platform.

katydid

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

What homeless people want or don't want is irrelevant to me, why should I have to worry about people I have nothing in common with and pay taxes for them?
Perhaps we should form a Mé Fein party, feck everyone else, but then we probably couldn't agree on a common platform.

What a ridiculous analogy; you can't compare people who live in another state to homeless people in our own state. As a state, we should care for all our people. But it's not our business to worry about people who don't live in our state.

ardmacha

sparky42 wrote: »

Come back to me when the Catholic bloc in NI support unification completely, latest polling at best gets you 30% of NI supporting a unification sometime in the next 30 years, so not even all the Catholics support it. And it falls to single digits if you asked for an immediate unification.

Who is proposing immediate unification, some good things take time to achieve.

katydid

ardmacha wrote: »

Who is proposing immediate unification, some good things take time to achieve.

Who said it's a good thing?

How many centuries is it going to take to rid over a million people of their conviction that they have no wish to be part of a united Ireland?

Sheldons Brain

katydid wrote: »

What a ridiculous analogy; you can't compare people who live in another state to homeless people in our own state. As a state, we should care for all our people. But it's not our business to worry about people who don't live in our state.

Not a ridiculous analogy, in both cases one group of Irish citizens were to be charactererised as non people, not worthy of equal consideration. The many difference is that my "I'm all right Jack"example was a rhetorical point in a debate on Boards.ie while your's is the basis of a repellant exclusionary political philosophy.

katydid

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

Not a ridiculous analogy, in both cases one group of Irish citizens were to be charactererised as non people, not worthy of equal consideration. The many difference is that my "I'm all right Jack"example was a rhetorical point in a debate on Boards.ie while your's is the basis of a repellant exclusionary political philosophy.

They may be Irish citizens, but there are Irish citizens living in many jurisdictions outside this state. We are not obliged to give them the same consideration as those living in this state. We don't allow them to participate in our democracy and they are not obliged to contribute in any way to our society.

It's nothing to do with "I'm alright, Jack". It's just a simple fact; our first loyalty is to those who live in this state. That doesn't make other Irish citizens "non-people". That is a ridiculous statement.

The Golden Miller

katydid wrote: »

They may be Irish citizens, but there are Irish citizens living in many jurisdictions outside this state. We are not obliged to give them the same consideration as those living in this state. We don't allow them to participate in our democracy and they are not obliged to contribute in any way to our society.

It's nothing to do with "I'm alright, Jack". It's just a simple fact; our first loyalty is to those who live in this state. That doesn't make other Irish citizens "non-people". That is a ridiculous statement.

Anyone ever notice, it's always the ones who say they want nothing to do with the north, who are the ones who always bang on about it more than anyone? In fact they are obsessed with it. Never shut up about it

And why are you on a "Northern Ireland" forum if you want nothing to do with it? You're not part of that jurisdiction so get out of here and stop giving you're opinion on it. Off with you to the Republic of Ireland forum

Karl Stein

katydid wrote: »

They may be Irish citizens, but there are Irish citizens living in many jurisdictions outside this state.

Unlike those born in jurisdictions outside the island Irish in the six counties are privileged by the constitution.

Article 2

It is the entitlement and birthright of every person born in the island of Ireland, which includes its islands and seas, to be part of the Irish Nation. That is also the entitlement of all persons otherwise qualified in accordance with law to be citizens of Ireland

Oh, and the constitutional aspiration of a UI remains codified in the Irish Constitution.

Article 3 (1)

It is the firm will of the Irish Nation, in harmony and friendship, to unite all the people who share the territory of the island of Ireland, in all the diversity of their identities and traditions, recognising that a united Ireland shall be brought about only by peaceful means with the consent of a majority of the people, democratically expressed, in both jurisdictions in the island.

Godge

Karl Stein wrote: »

Unlike those born in jurisdictions outside the island Irish in the six counties are privileged by the constitution.



Oh, and the constitutional aspiration of a UI remains codified in the Irish Constitution.

Yes, it does, but that version of Article 3 differs very significantly from the previous version.

New version:

"It is the firm will of the Irish Nation, in harmony and friendship, to unite all the people who share the territory of the island of Ireland, in all the diversity of their identities and traditions, recognising that a united Ireland shall be brought about only by peaceful means with the consent of a majority of the people, democratically expressed, in both jurisdictions in the island."

Old version:

"Pending the re-integration of the national territory, and without prejudice to the right of the parliament and government established by this constitution to exercise jurisdiction over the whole territory, the laws enacted by the parliament shall have the like area and extent of application as the laws of Saorstat Éireann[3] and the like extra-territorial effect."

It is arguable whether the new version even aspires to full unity. From wikipedia (not authoritative) one interpretation:

"As amended, Article 3, Section 1 expresses the "firm will" of the Irish nation to create a united Irish people, though not, explicitly, a united country. It stresses, however, that a united Ireland should respect the distinct cultural identity of Unionists and that it should only come about with the separate "democratically expressed" consent of the peoples of both parts of the island."

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

It would also make economic sense not to have many parts of Dublin, where do I get to vote to get rid of them?

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

What homeless people want or don't want is irrelevant to me, why should I have to worry about people I have nothing in common with and pay taxes for them?
Perhaps we should form a Mé Fein party, feck everyone else, but then we probably couldn't agree on a common platform.

In case you hadn't noticed, many parts of Dublin or homeless people don't have their own section in the Constitution that theoretically provides for a referendum.

Jesus.

Why on earth has the Government decided to bring the UK back to the European Courts?

Are they running scared of Sinn Fein's polling or something?

Karl Stein

Godge wrote: »

that version of Article 3 differs very significantly from the previous version.

I have no idea why you felt the need to let me know that you'd noticed that. Em... congratulations on noticing it?

It is arguable whether the new version even aspires to full unity.

To you? Yeah, that comes as no surprise. The territorial claim was rescinded - the aspiration of a UI remains.

I'm not sure why you even bothered quoting me.

pilgrim pat

did you know the people of the republic of Ireland can vote in uk elections , why is this possible ?

sparky42

pilgrim pat wrote: »

did you know the people of the republic of Ireland can vote in uk elections , why is this possible ?

Legacy of the past, from memory British can vote in irish elections as well.

katydid

Karl Stein wrote: »

Unlike those born in jurisdictions outside the island Irish in the six counties are privileged by the constitution.



Oh, and the constitutional aspiration of a UI remains codified in the Irish Constitution.

Not privileged to vote in our elections, to pay our water tax or USC, not privileged to autumatically become part of our state while living in another jurisdicition. That depends on the will of ALL the people on this island.

So what if the aspiration for a United Ireland is part of our constitution? We all aspire for world peace and love and joy between men. It doesn't mean it's a realistic aspiration.

Jesus.

katydid wrote: »

So what if the aspiration for a United Ireland is part of our constitution? We all aspire for world peace and love and joy between men. It doesn't mean it's a realistic aspiration.

You don't think a UI is a realistic aspiration for some point in the future?

katydid

Jesus. wrote: »

You don't think a UI is a realistic aspiration for some point in the future?

Not a peaceful one.

ardmacha

Jesus. wrote: »

Why on earth has the Government decided to bring the UK back to the European Courts?

Are they running scared of Sinn Fein's polling or something?

To quote Keynes "When my information changes, I alter my conclusions. What do you do, sir?"

katydid wrote:

So what if the aspiration for a United Ireland is part of our constitution? We all aspire for world peace and love and joy between men. It doesn't mean it's a realistic aspiration.

Some of us promote world peace and some oppose it, you seem to be in the Putin camp on this one.

katydid

ardmacha wrote: »

Some of us promote world peace and some oppose it, you seem to be in the Putin camp on this one.

You don't have to be a warmonger to know that, given human nature, we will never have world peace.

Just like we'll never have a million unionists shrugging their shoulders and going along with a united Ireland.

It's called being a realist.

Jesus.

ardmacha wrote: »

To quote Keynes "When my information changes, I alter my conclusions. What do you do, sir?"

Indeed.

But why drag them back to the courts now that we're on such friendly terms?

The Golden Miller

katydid wrote: »

You don't have to be a warmonger to know that, given human nature, we will never have world peace.

Just like we'll never have a million unionists shrugging their shoulders and going along with a united Ireland.

It's called being a realist.

If in the future the north votes to be part of a united Ireland, and the south also votes for it (personally we shouldn't have a vote), why do you care if unionists come peacefully or not?

katydid

The Golden Miller wrote: »

If in the future the north votes to be part of a united Ireland, and the south also votes for it (personally we shouldn't have a vote), why do you care if unionists come peacefully or not?

Why should I care that the country I live in and love would be totally ruined by a bunch of bigoted lunatics? Hmm, that's a hard one...

The Golden Miller

katydid wrote: »

Why should I care that the country I live in and love would be totally ruined by a bunch of bigoted lunatics? Hmm, that's a hard one...

Ye how did the troubles effect you personally? How did the flag protests effect you?

ardmacha

katydid wrote: »

Why should I care that the country I live in and love would be totally ruined by a bunch of bigoted lunatics? Hmm, that's a hard one...

You've already said that you love the 26 counties, not the country. Which is it?

katydid

ardmacha wrote: »

You've already said that you love the 26 counties, not the country. Which is it?

The island of Ireland is a country, culturally. The Republic of Ireland is a country, politically AND culturally. It is the country to which I owe my allegience, first and foremost - if the ROI is playing NI in football, I don't think twice who I support.

That is the place - country/state, call it what you will, that I don't want destroyed by the sickness of the Northern mindset.

The Golden Miller

katydid wrote: »

The island of Ireland is a country, culturally. The Republic of Ireland is a country, politically AND culturally. It is the country to which I owe my allegience, first and foremost - if the ROI is playing NI in football, I don't think twice who I support.

That is the place - country/state, call it what you will, that I don't want destroyed by the sickness of the Northern mindset.

Well northern nationalists also support the ROI team as it represents all 32 countys. Look at the crest. It only says Ireland. The ROI name is used, as we have to use it because FIFA makes us, we don't have a choice. It represents the whole country, all 32 countys.

How would the "sickness" of the "northern mindset" have any direct impact on you? How has anyone or anything from the north ever effected you?

The only sickness in this country, is partitionists like you who seem intent on creating an "us and them" divide between Irish people north and south of the border

The Golden Miller

katydid wrote: »

The island of Ireland is a country, culturally. The Republic of Ireland is a country, politically AND culturally. It is the country to which I owe my allegience, first and foremost - if the ROI is playing NI in football, I don't think twice who I support.

That is the place - country/state, call it what you will, that I don't want destroyed by the sickness of the Northern mindset.

And no, the Republic of Ireland is not a country, it is a state. There is a difference.

circadian

katydid wrote: »

The island of Ireland is a country, culturally. The Republic of Ireland is a country, politically AND culturally. It is the country to which I owe my allegience, first and foremost - if the ROI is playing NI in football, I don't think twice who I support.

That is the place - country/state, call it what you will, that I don't want destroyed by the sickness of the Northern mindset.

Please elaborate on this sickness. I'm genuinely intrigued.

katydid

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Well northern nationalists also support the ROI team as it represents all 32 countys. Look at the crest. It only says Ireland. The ROI name is used, as we have to use it because FIFA makes us, we don't have a choice. It represents the whole country, all 32 countys.

How would the "sickness" of the "northern mindset" have any direct impact on you? How has anyone or anything from the north ever effected you?

The only sickness in this country, is partitionists like you who seem intent on creating an "us and them" divide between Irish people north and south of the border

It is the team of the Republic of Ireland. Not of Ireland. That is the rugby team. If people from Northern Ireland want to support our team, they are welcome to. But they have their own team; it's their choice not to support them. It does not represent them.

The sickness of NI bigotry and hatred would affect every citizen of this Republic. It would poison our society, and our social services, our politicians and everyone else would have to deal with it. We have our own problems - enough of them, God knows, but one thing we don't have, for example, is religious bigotry. Protestant and Roman Catholic get on fine - we definitely don't need the kind of mentality they have up there, that a certain religion goes with a certain political mentality.

It is not sick to love and to defend one's country and not to want it to be polluted by hatred and bigotry. I am not a partitionist, I am a realist and a patriot. There IS a divide. Look at the map and wake up to the real world.

circadian

Wow, sounds serious. Looks like a trip to the doctor for me, I didn't realise I displayed these symptoms at all.

I must inform my fellow nordies of this debilitating illness!

Jesus.

To be fair to Katy, why would the Staters want Unionist/Loyalist lunatics and bigots populating the Dail and having a large say on the running of the place? I can't stand the sight nor sound of them so I'd definitely think twice about a UI if one should ever become a realistic prospect.

There's plenty of decent, moderate PUL's in NI and I have respect for them. But unfortunately the other lot just don't appear to be in a minority. If they are, its a very large minority.

Who the fukk would want that backward-ass sh*t brought into their State? I feel for the CNR's and moderate PUL's, I really do.

katydid

circadian wrote: »

Wow, sounds serious. Looks like a trip to the doctor for me, I didn't realise I displayed these symptoms at all.

I must inform my fellow nordies of this debilitating illness!

That's the problem, you're too bound up in it all to see what's staring you in the face; your society is abnormal, and what you need to do is work on fixing it, not thinking that changing its political make up will change anything. Bigots will not stop being bigots just because political jurisdiction changes.

katydid

Jesus. wrote: »

To be fair to Katy, why would the Staters want Unionist/Loyalist lunatics and bigots populating the Dail and having a large say on the running of the place? I can't stand the sight nor sound of them so I'd definitely think twice about a UI if one should ever become a realistic prospect.

There's plenty of decent, moderate PUL's in NI and I have respect for them. But unfortunately the other lot just don't appear to be in a minority. If they are, its a very large minority.

Who the fukk would want that backward-ass sh*t brought into their State? I feel for the CNR's and moderate PUL's, I really do.

There are also plenty "nationalist" bigots up there. We see some of them here; people who defend the campaign of murder and mayhem that their IRA heroes conducted for years up there.

Jesus.

katydid wrote: »

There are also plenty "nationalist" bigots up there. We see some of them here; people who defend the campaign of murder and mayhem that their IRA heroes conducted for years up there.

There are plenty of Republican extremists and lunatics still knocking about up there alright. Not sure I'd call them bigots in the same way I'd describe the other crowd but its a thing about a word we could argue about all night so let's not!

You're right in what you're saying. However, if there was a UI, these people's appetites would presumably be sated seeing as their objective would be attained so I would presume (hope?) that they'd melt away and not be as much of an issue as would tens of thousands of Bible-bashing, medieval headcases who are hostile to the very State they'd now find themselves living in.

I think you'd find most of the trouble would emerge from that camp in such a scenario, Katy.

katydid

Jesus. wrote: »

There are plenty of Republican extremists and lunatics still knocking about up there alright. Not sure I'd call them bigots in the same way I'd describe the other crowd but its a thing about a word we could argue about all night so let's not!

You're right in what you're saying. However, if there was a UI, these people's appetites would presumably be sated seeing as their objective would be attained so I would presume (hope?) that they'd melt away and not be as much of an issue as would tens of thousands of Bible-bashing, medieval headcases who are hostile to the very State they'd now find themselves living in.

I think you'd find most of the trouble would emerge from that camp in such a scenario, Katy.

If they judge people by their religion or background, they are bigots...their appetites might be sated, but they would find it very hard to fit in in a society like ours, where terms like Protestant and Catholic are irrelevant, and where people from different denominations co-operate with each other. Not only would they find it hard to fit in, but they would bring their nasty bigotry into our society. That, along with bible bashing headcases are the last things we need.

Jesus.

katydid wrote: »

If they judge people by their religion or background, they are bigots...their appetites might be sates, but they would find it very hard to fit in in a society like ours, where terms like Protestant and Catholic are irrelevant, and where people from different denominations co-operate with each other. Not only would they find it hard to fit in, but they would bring their nasty bigotry into our society.

That's where I think the difference lies between the two communities up there. The religious bigotry is almost all one-sided. The Republicans who run around still trying to blow up the place and cause havoc would better be described as terrorists as opposed to bigots.

In my experience you'll almost never hear an Irish Catholic banging on about the Protestant Churches the whole time but you'll often come across Irish Protestants with an almost disturbing obsession with the Roman Catholic Church, its practices and beliefs. I'm sure Irish Catholic bigots still exist but they're very small in number compared to their Christian counterparts.

But hey, that's just my opinion

katydid

Jesus. wrote: »

That's where I think the difference lies between the two communities up there. The religious bigotry is almost all one-sided. The Republicans who run around still trying to blow up the place and cause havoc would better be described as terrorists as opposed to bigots.

In my experience you'll almost never hear an Irish Catholic banging on about the Protestant Churches the whole time but you'll often come across Irish Protestants with an almost disturbing obsession with the Roman Catholic Church, its practices and beliefs. I'm sure Irish Catholic bigots still exist but they're very small in number compared to their Christian counterparts.

But hey, that's just my opinion

I agree with you. From what I see, for the hardline Protestant it is ALL about religion. That's why, I think, the Protestants I know from NI, living and working in this state, find it so hard to live in the communities that have stayed put while they have moved on.

Mind you, the experience of these Protestants shows that there is some hope for Protestants who would be opened up to the reality of the Republic. But there are so many closed minds...

circadian

katydid wrote: »

That's the problem, you're too bound up in it all to see what's staring you in the face; your society is abnormal, and what you need to do is work on fixing it, not thinking that changing its political make up will change anything. Bigots will not stop being bigots just because political jurisdiction changes.

Thanks for clarifying my views and state of mind for me.

I am not a bigot and I do not appreciate this gross generalisation. Many of my friends and family aren't bigoted. Your post in itself bigoted, the irony.

I agree that there are bigots in NI, it doesn't mean everyone is. You get people with that mindset anywhere. To assume that everyone is of that mindset is a very simplistic viewpoint.

katydid

circadian wrote: »

Thanks for clarifying my views and state of mind for me.

I am not a bigot and I do not appreciate this gross generalisation. Many of my friends and family aren't bigoted. Your post in itself bigoted, the irony.

I agree that there are bigots in NI, it doesn't mean everyone is. You get people with that mindset anywhere. To assume that everyone is of that mindset is a very simplistic viewpoint.

I didn't say YOU were a bigot. I said there were many bigots. That is true. Not everyone, but more than in a normal society.

maccored

katydid wrote: »

I didn't say YOU were a bigot. I said there were many bigots. That is true. Not everyone, but more than in a normal society.

would having that point of view make you yourself one? I'm not accusing, only asking, as it is a bit bigoted to say somewhere has more bigots than anywhere else.

katydid

maccored wrote: »

would having that point of view make you yourself one? I'm not accusing, only asking, as it is a bit bigoted to say somewhere has more bigots than anywhere else.

No, it's not. Given the unfortunate history of NI, it has a particularly warped society. It can't even have a normal democratic system, because people's views are so entrenched.

maccored

katydid wrote: »

No, it's not. Given the unfortunate history of NI, it has a particularly warped society. It can't even have a normal democratic system, because people's views are so entrenched.

As yours surely seems to be. certainly in regards to the north.

Sheldons Brain

katydid wrote: »

No, it's not. Given the unfortunate history of NI, it has a particularly warped society. It can't even have a normal democratic system, because people's views are so entrenched.

All the more reason get rid of NI.