"IF" a United Ireland did happen...(Mod warning in OP, stay on topic!))

katydid

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

All the more reason get rid of NI.

Not by foisting it on us in its present state, thank you very much.

katydid

maccored wrote: »

As yours surely seems to be. certainly in regards to the north.

How is it warped not to want one's society to be invaded by a bunch of nutcases?

Jesus.

maccored wrote: »

would having that point of view make you yourself one? I'm not accusing, only asking, as it is a bit bigoted to say somewhere has more bigots than anywhere else.

Na mate, stating facts does not a bigot make. There's no doubt there's a much larger amount of bigots in Northern Ireland (& Western Scotland) than there are in any other region of the British Isles.

Its as plain as day.

circadian

katydid wrote: »

No, it's not. Given the unfortunate history of NI, it has a particularly warped society. It can't even have a normal democratic system, because people's views are so entrenched.

How much time have you spent in said society? Have you been able to cross examine and experience different facets of it? Or is this just pure speculation from a distance on your part?

Jesus. wrote: »

Na mate, stating facts does not a bigot make. There's no doubt there's a much larger amount of bigots in Northern Ireland (& Western Scotland) than there are in any other region of the British Isles.

Its as plain as day.

Stating facts? Are there any facts that can be referenced? I'm talking about studies that without doubt state that NI is much more bigoted than other places.

katydid

circadian wrote: »

How much time have you spent in said society? Have you been able to cross examine and experience different facets of it? Or is this just pure speculation from a distance on your part?



Stating facts? Are there any facts that can be referenced? I'm talking about studies that without doubt state that NI is much more bigoted than other places.

I spend one weekend in Belfast. The beginning and the end of my wish to spend time in NI. I didn't particularly dislike it, it was just a bit strange, seeing all those places we saw on the tv back in the day.

I don't need to spend time in NI to know it's a strange place. You only have to look at the codology in July, the flag demonstrations, the fact that your religion defines your community. It's a unique place; and I don't mean that as a compliment.

circadian

katydid wrote: »

I spend one weekend in Belfast. The beginning and the end of my wish to spend time in NI. I didn't particularly dislike it, it was just a bit strange, seeing all those places we saw on the tv back in the day.

I don't need to spend time in NI to know it's a strange place. You only have to look at the codology in July, the flag demonstrations, the fact that your religion defines your community. It's a unique place; and I don't mean that as a compliment.

So you form your opinion based on one weekend in one place and the rest on news when things flare up.

Godge

katydid wrote: »

I spend one weekend in Belfast. The beginning and the end of my wish to spend time in NI. I didn't particularly dislike it, it was just a bit strange, seeing all those places we saw on the tv back in the day.

I don't need to spend time in NI to know it's a strange place. You only have to look at the codology in July, the flag demonstrations, the fact that your religion defines your community. It's a unique place; and I don't mean that as a compliment.

I have travelled widely across Northern Ireland, Belfast, Newry, Derry, Tyrone, Newcastle, Antrim coast, visited, eaten and stayed in many different places, talking to locals, being ignored by locals etc. I also have quite a number of Northern friends and acquaintances.

I must say I have to agree with your analysis that it is a very strange place. It is also very different to the South, the inward-looking mentality is strong.

The South is more like England than it is like the North.

katydid

Godge wrote: »

I have travelled widely across Northern Ireland, Belfast, Newry, Derry, Tyrone, Newcastle, Antrim coast, visited, eaten and stayed in many different places, talking to locals, being ignored by locals etc. I also have quite a number of Northern friends and acquaintances.

I must say I have to agree with your analysis that it is a very strange place. It is also very different to the South, the inward-looking mentality is strong.

The South is more like England than it is like the North.

Coming from the "Deep South" of Cork, I never had any reason to go to the North growing up, plus it was too dangerous. It's easier for people in Dublin and areas like that, as it's only a short journey for them.

I decided that since I had travelled all over the world, it was a shame I had never been in Northern Ireland, so visited it for a weekend last autumn. I found it in many ways like a typical British city, with the normal "High Street" shops (mind you, the streets here are getting like that these days), but it was unsettling how close the streets we all saw on our TVs were to the city centre. There was a sense of unfinished business, what with the "Peace Walls" and all. I didn't feel like hurrying back there in a hurry.

Jesus.

circadian wrote: »

Stating facts? Are there any facts that can be referenced? I'm talking about studies that without doubt state that NI is much more bigoted than other places.

Are you on the wind up? A study that shows the bigotry levels of different Countries? Do such things even exist? Do we need a study to tell us that sh*t tastes bad or Gerry Adams was in the IRA?

I repeat, its as plain as day. Show me another part of these Islands where there's an annual orgy of coat-trailing anti-Catholic triumphalism? In fact, show me another part of Europe or indeed the World where there's such a national "festival"?

Jesus.

Godge wrote: »

The South is more like England than it is like the North.

That is a fact. Its one of the ironies that the ROI ended up more like the Britain than Northern Ireland. In their quest to be as British as Finchley, Ulster Protestants became as unlike the British as you're likely to find.

aveytare

I'm from the North (Tyrone) and I think we're getting a bit of a bad rap here. Most people get along fine. Obviously it's still somewhat segregated though I think that's as much to do with the schooling system as anything else. I think even in the last decade or so people get on better. Maybe I'd have a different opinion if I was a Catholic living in Carrickfergus or something. The flag protests were an embarrassment but the likes of Willie Frazer and Jamie Bryson aren't representative of the majority of people here. Tbh I think Unionists are a bit more conscious of that kinda stuff - Tyrone has a fair amount of traditionally Republican villages but you'd barely know it driving through them

Most people I'm friends with don't particularly care about politics or religion really (though a lot are really into the GAA and are fond of Irish Traditional music and what not). If anything they should probably care a bit more about politics in general but I don't really blame them either. Know a guy from Dublin and we were chatting about our experiences when we were at secondary school and he asked me about my 'leaving cert' which was a bit amusing/strange.

Also I know the polls say a lot of nationalists wouldn't vote tomorrow for a United Ireland but in my experience the vast majority of people from a catholic background here are basically 'nationalist', culturally at least. They generally aren't like, I don't know, Rory McIlroy (opening a can of worms there, I'm not sure what Rory thinks about all this stuff but I don't think he's typical anyway). So I wouldn't rule out a United Ireland in the future considering the demographic changes - that's if you guys want us...

The Golden Miller

katydid wrote: »

It is the team of the Republic of Ireland. Not of Ireland. That is the rugby team. If people from Northern Ireland want to support our team, they are welcome to. But they have their own team; it's their choice not to support them. It does not represent them.

The sickness of NI bigotry and hatred would affect every citizen of this Republic. It would poison our society, and our social services, our politicians and everyone else would have to deal with it. We have our own problems - enough of them, God knows, but one thing we don't have, for example, is religious bigotry. Protestant and Roman Catholic get on fine - we definitely don't need the kind of mentality they have up there, that a certain religion goes with a certain political mentality.

It is not sick to love and to defend one's country and not to want it to be polluted by hatred and bigotry. I am not a partitionist, I am a realist and a patriot. There IS a divide. Look at the map and wake up to the real world.

You're a patriot of nothing. You're nothing but a xenophobe and a bigot against Irish people in the north, who's partitionist mentality poisons the southern mindset of late. We definitely don't need your mindset down here. There's so much wrong and warped with your posts, I could be here all day writing. You're so blinded by you're own ignorance you can't even see it.

You say you're a realist, but fall back on technicalities when it suits your agenda. I'm aware there is two teams, I implied as much in my post. But whether you like it or not, "our" team represents all 32 counties, has a manager and players from the north and is supported by the Irish in the north. That's the REALITY, whether it's official or not. And I thought you were a realist? Funny how you bring out all the technicalities when it clashes with what happens in "the real world".

This country has 32 counties. The republic is a sovereign state, not a country, didn't you know? So you say you're a patriot and are proud to be Irish, but by definition you are not, as Irishness extends to all 32 counties regardless of what territory or sovereignty they are under. To say you are proud to be Irish, but actively argue against the inclusiveness of 6 counties which also include other people who are Irish by default, by definition means that you are not only not proud to be Irish, but are certainly not a patriot. If you're proud to be "republic of irish" or some other such rubbish, well that's a different matter.

You remind me of loyalists before the civil rights marches and the troubles kicked off in the north. They had their way, the north was under British sovereignty. They also had first choice in every walk of life. Yet that wasn't enough. They had to keep poking and prodding the Irish communities. They had to keep antagonising them. Which is very similar to you. Every belief you speak of is the unfortunate reality in regards to two states on this island. We won't have a united Ireland soon, at least not in our lifetimes, and you know this. It's exactly the way you want it. Yet that's not enough. Yet you have to keep coming onto a "Northern Ireland" forum, knowing the vast majority of northern users here are Irish and many who would like to live under Irish rule, and to keep telling them they are not wanted. To continue to try and stir up tensions and reinforce this "us and them" mentality. To try and ram this down their throats, knowing your views will antagonise them. And why? You're dyed in exactly the same sort of wool as Ian Paisley and people of his ilk.

And don't ever pretend to speak on behalf of me or anybody else in the south with you're "we're good, we don't want you down here" rubbish, who are disgusted by you're bigoted views. As someone who is also from "this state", it's embarrassing to be associated with people like you, especially when Irish people from the north read you're partitionist sh1te. It must kill you knowing that if the north ever did vote into a united Ireland, the south would accept them in a landslide victory at the polling stations, with every political party encouraging it, and having to.

You remind me of another man who was from the south, Conor Cruise O'Brien. Behind those beady little eyes, his articulate manner and his "objective" views, there was a real undercurrent of hatred and venom towards the Irish in the north, which your posts reek of. At least he had the excuse of going to a school of Protestant ethos

braddun

we are all part of Europe now,germany and france control us

katydid

aveytare wrote: »

I'm from the North (Tyrone) and I think we're getting a bit of a bad rap here. Most people get along fine. Obviously it's still somewhat segregated though I think that's as much to do with the schooling system as anything else. I think even in the last decade or so people get on better. Maybe I'd have a different opinion if I was a Catholic living in Carrickfergus or something. The flag protests were an embarrassment but the likes of Willie Frazer and Jamie Bryson aren't representative of the majority of people here. Tbh I think Unionists are a bit more conscious of that kinda stuff - Tyrone has a fair amount of traditionally Republican villages but you'd barely know it driving through them

Most people I'm friends with don't particularly care about politics or religion really (though a lot are really into the GAA and are fond of Irish Traditional music and what not). If anything they should probably care a bit more about politics in general but I don't really blame them either. Know a guy from Dublin and we were chatting about our experiences when we were at secondary school and he asked me about my 'leaving cert' which was a bit amusing/strange.

Also I know the polls say a lot of nationalists wouldn't vote tomorrow for a United Ireland but in my experience the vast majority of people from a catholic background here are basically 'nationalist', culturally at least. They generally aren't like, I don't know, Rory McIlroy (opening a can of worms there, I'm not sure what Rory thinks about all this stuff but I don't think he's typical anyway). So I wouldn't rule out a United Ireland in the future considering the demographic changes - that's if you guys want us...

Interesting post. I think what I, for one, am trying to say, is that despite advances, it still isn't a normal society. Schooling in the Republic tends to be based on religious denominations too, but it doesn't create or perpetuate segregation in the community.

I have a question for you. I was raised a Roman Catholic, but when I became an adult, I made a conscious decision to become a member of the Church of Ireland. It has never caused me the slightest bit of bother. I have CofI friends from the North who say that at least in the direction they could have gone, i.e from CofI to RC, it would have been practically impossible, because it's about so much more than faith. They would have been seen as betraying their community. I take it from what you write that you are probably from the RC community; how would it be seen for a Roman Catholic to become a Protestant? Would it be a big deal?

katydid

The Golden Miller wrote: »

You're a patriot of nothing. You're nothing but a xenophobe and a bigot against Irish people in the north, who's partitionist mentality poisons the southern mindset of late. We definitely don't need your mindset down here. There's so much wrong and warped with your posts, I could be here all day writing. You're so blinded by you're own ignorance you can't even see it.

You say you're a realist, but fall back on technicalities when it suits your agenda. I'm aware there is two teams, I implied as much in my post. But whether you like it or not, "our" team represents all 32 counties, has a manager and players from the north and is supported by the Irish in the north. That's the REALITY, whether it's official or not. And I thought you were a realist? Funny how you bring out all the technicalities when it clashes with what happens in "the real world".

This country has 32 counties. The republic is a sovereign state, not a country, didn't you know? So you say you're a patriot and are proud to be Irish, but by definition you are not, as Irishness extends to all 32 counties regardless of what territory or sovereignty they are under. To say you are proud to be Irish, but actively argue against the inclusiveness of 6 counties which also include other people who are Irish by default, by definition means that you are not only not proud to be Irish, but are certainly not a patriot. If you're proud to be "republic of irish" or some other such rubbish, well that's a different matter.

You remind me of loyalists before the civil rights marches and the troubles kicked off in the north. They had their way, the north was under British sovereignty. They also had first choice in every walk of life. Yet that wasn't enough. They had to keep poking and prodding the Irish communities. They had to keep antagonising them. Which is very similar to you. Every belief you speak of is the unfortunate reality in regards to two states on this island. We won't have a united Ireland soon, at least not in our lifetimes, and you know this. It's exactly the way you want it. Yet that's not enough. Yet you have to keep coming onto a "Northern Ireland" forum, knowing the vast majority of northern users here are Irish and many who would like to live under Irish rule, and to keep telling them they are not wanted. To continue to try and stir up tensions and reinforce this "us and them" mentality. To try and ram this down their throats, knowing your views will antagonise them. And why? You're dyed in exactly the same sort of wool as Ian Paisley and people of his ilk.

And don't ever pretend to speak on behalf of me or anybody else in the south with you're "we're good, we don't want you down here" rubbish, who are disgusted by you're bigoted views. As someone who is also from "this state", it's embarrassing to be associated with people like you, especially when Irish people from the north read you're partitionist sh1te. It must kill you knowing that if the north ever did vote into a united Ireland, the south would accept them in a landslide victory at the polling stations, with every political party encouraging it, and having to.

You remind me of another man who was from the south, Conor Cruise O'Brien. Behind those beady little eyes, his articulate manner and his "objective" views, there was a real undercurrent of hatred and venom towards the Irish in the north, which your posts reek of. At least he had the excuse of going to a school of Protestant ethos

Xenephobe? Do you even realise what that means? People from NI are not foreigners, they are Irish people living in a different jurisdiction. And I certainly don't hate them. I am more than happy for any of them who want to live in this state to come and live here. So where does xenophobia fit it?

What technicalities are you talking about? It's not a technicality that we have different legal systems, different currencies, different educational systems, different football teams, different democratic systems...need I go on? We are different, like it or not. Pretending otherwise doesn't change that fact.

There is the cultural entity which is the Island of Ireland, and there is the political entity which is the Republic of Ireland. I will fully support the larger entity when it is a matter of it being counted as one unit, such as in rugby, but when it boils down to it, my first loyalty is to the state I was born in and grew up in; the Republic of Ireland. If that is threatened, then I make no apologies for defending the republic against this threat. I would have no problem with Irish people from NI joining with us, as long as they leave their baggage behind them; surely that's not unreasonable?

You can put that down to hatred or "xenophibia" if you wish, but it is the instinctive reaction of anyone to protect their own.

ChicagoJoe

katydid wrote: »

Xenephobe? Do you even realise what that means? People from NI are not foreigners, they are Irish people living in a different jurisdiction. And I certainly don't hate them. I am more than happy for any of them who want to live in this state to come and live here. So where does xenophobia fit it?

What technicalities are you talking about? It's not a technicality that we have different legal systems, different currencies, different educational systems, different football teams, different democratic systems...need I go on? We are different, like it or not. Pretending otherwise doesn't change that fact.

There is the cultural entity which is the Island of Ireland, and there is the political entity which is the Republic of Ireland. I will fully support the larger entity when it is a matter of it being counted as one unit, such as in rugby, but when it boils down to it, my first loyalty is to the state I was born in and grew up in; the Republic of Ireland. If that is threatened, then I make no apologies for defending the republic against this threat. I would have no problem with Irish people from NI joining with us, as long as they leave their baggage behind them; surely that's not unreasonable?

You can put that down to hatred or "xenophibia" if you wish, but it is the instinctive reaction of anyone to protect their own.

Let me guess, you wear a poppy, refer to Ireland and Britain as "the British isles", and want the 26 counties back in the Commonwealth saying it should never have left And I'll bet you could fill a telephone box with those who agree with you

aveytare

katydid wrote: »

Interesting post. I think what I, for one, am trying to say, is that despite advances, it still isn't a normal society. Schooling in the Republic tends to be based on religious denominations too, but it doesn't create or perpetuate segregation in the community.

I have a question for you. I was raised a Roman Catholic, but when I became an adult, I made a conscious decision to become a member of the Church of Ireland. It has never caused me the slightest bit of bother. I have CofI friends from the North who say that at least in the direction they could have gone, i.e from CofI to RC, it would have been practically impossible, because it's about so much more than faith. They would have been seen as betraying their community. I take it from what you write that you are probably from the RC community; how would it be seen for a Roman Catholic to become a Protestant? Would it be a big deal?

I'm not sure how big a deal it would be. Non-sectarian people probably wouldn't care. Others might find it a bit strange I suppose. I'm not religious and if I have children I'm not sure how I'd raise them - it's pretty well-documented that the best schools in the North are Catholic schools and they'd probably be a bit out of place at a state school. The local integrated school's alright but not the best either. I think a lot of 'Catholics' don't care about religion but still go through the motions of going to mass an odd time and sending their kids to Catholic schools. Bloody religion. In general it's sometimes hard finding a balance between recognising your culture and on the other hand being independent and not just following the crowd.

katydid

ChicagoJoe wrote: »

Let me guess, you wear a poppy, refer to Ireland and Britain as "the British isles", and want the 26 counties back in the Commonwealth saying it should never have left And I'll bet you could fill a telephone box with those who agree with you

I wear a poppy.

katydid

aveytare wrote: »

I'm not sure how big a deal it would be. Non-sectarian people probably wouldn't care. Others might find it a bit strange I suppose. I'm not religious and if I have children I'm not sure how I'd raise them - it's pretty well-documented that the best schools in the North are Catholic schools and they'd probably be a bit out of place at a state school. The local integrated school's alright but not the best either. I think a lot of 'Catholics' don't care about religion but still go through the motions of going to mass an odd time and sending their kids to Catholic schools. Bloody religion. In general it's sometimes hard finding a balance between recognising your culture and on the other hand being independent and not just following the crowd.

I agree with all that. Much the same down here. I was just curious, as from the other side I was told it would be looked on in horror...

The Golden Miller

katydid wrote: »

Xenephobe? Do you even realise what that means? People from NI are not foreigners, they are Irish people living in a different jurisdiction. And I certainly don't hate them. I am more than happy for any of them who want to live in this state to come and live here. So where does xenophobia fit it?

What technicalities are you talking about? It's not a technicality that we have different legal systems, different currencies, different educational systems, different football teams, different democratic systems...need I go on? We are different, like it or not. Pretending otherwise doesn't change that fact.

There is the cultural entity which is the Island of Ireland, and there is the political entity which is the Republic of Ireland. I will fully support the larger entity when it is a matter of it being counted as one unit, such as in rugby, but when it boils down to it, my first loyalty is to the state I was born in and grew up in; the Republic of Ireland. If that is threatened, then I make no apologies for defending the republic against this threat. I would have no problem with Irish people from NI joining with us, as long as they leave their baggage behind them; surely that's not unreasonable?

You can put that down to hatred or "xenophibia" if you wish, but it is the instinctive reaction of anyone to protect their own.

Ye I do know what it means. Considering you are questioning me on what it means, shows you don't haven't a breeze of what it means. You can state what you want, the nature of you posts are xenophobic and bigoted, although you like to dress it up like you're objective and what not.

Well the technicalities for the football teams was one, after you claimed to be a realist. In the real world it represents all 32 counties, regardless if it's official or not. It seems you're only a realist when it suits you.

Threatened? So you come on here to continually antagonise Irish from the north, because you feel threatened? Even though you know there is no hope for a united Ireland? You're no better than a loyalist bigot, even when they had their own way in the north. It's not enough for people like you to have things your way, you have to keep putting the boot in.

On another thread you state you support the army of the first Dail? Didn't that army fights for all 32 counties, not 26? How can you claim to be a patriot if so? You do realise most of that army did not support the treaty?

The Golden Miller

ChicagoJoe wrote: »

Let me guess, you wear a poppy, refer to Ireland and Britain as "the British isles", and want the 26 counties back in the Commonwealth saying it should never have left And I'll bet you could fill a telephone box with those who agree with you

No she's the type of person, that when on holidays and asked where they are from, has to specify that it's the Republic of Ireland, and has to go out of their way to let everyone know that the north and south are two different countries, when not even asked

katydid

The Golden Miller wrote: »

No she's the type of person, that when on holidays and asked where they are from, has to specify that it's the Republic of Ireland, and has to go out of their way to let everyone know that the north and south are two different countries, when not even asked

I'm sure that there are such people. I just say Ireland. Why would I say otherwise? Ireland is Ireland...

The Golden Miller

katydid wrote: »

I'm sure that there are such people. I just say Ireland. Why would I say otherwise? Ireland is Ireland...

I don't know why you would say otherwise. Probably because you feel "threatened" of another state being associated with your's, since your such a loyal patriot and all that

katydid

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Ye I do know what it means. Considering you are questioning me on what it means, shows you don't haven't a breeze of what it means. You can state what you want, the nature of you posts are xenophobic and bigoted, although you like to dress it up like you're objective and what not.

Well the technicalities for the football teams was one, after you claimed to be a realist. In the real world it represents all 32 counties, regardless if it's official or not. It seems you're only a realist when it suits you.

Threatened? So you come on here to continually antagonise Irish from the north, because you feel threatened? Even though you know there is no hope for a united Ireland? You're no better than a loyalist bigot, even when they had their own way in the north. It's not enough for people like you to have things your way, you have to keep putting the boot in.

On another thread you state you support the army of the first Dail? Didn't that army fights for all 32 counties, not 26? How can you claim to be a patriot if so? You do realise most of that army did not support the treaty?

So you still haven't used your dictionary to look up "xenophobia"?

The football teams is not a technicality. It is a reality. Maybe you should look that word up while you're at it...

Why do you find it so strange that I would worry about my threat to my state by the influx of people who have grown up in a warped, bigoted state? You may think noting about living in a society like that, but it's not normal, whatever you think. And not something normal people want to have to deal with. Our society has enough problems without adding that to the bunch. How am I antagonising anyone by engaging in a discussion? You need to grow up and grow a pair if you're so easily "antagonised".

Yes, the army of the first Dáil fought for a 32 county Ireland. And then the democratically elected government settled, rightly or wrongly, for a 26 county one. You can't turn back history. The state I live in is the result of that decision and is my reality. A reality you are welcome to share if you don't like your own reality.

The Golden Miller

katydid wrote: »

So you still haven't used your dictionary to look up "xenophobia"?

The football teams is not a technicality. It is a reality. Maybe you should look that word up while you're at it...

Why do you find it so strange that I would worry about my threat to my state by the influx of people who have grown up in a warped, bigoted state? You may think noting about living in a society like that, but it's not normal, whatever you think. And not something normal people want to have to deal with. Our society has enough problems without adding that to the bunch. How am I antagonising anyone by engaging in a discussion? You need to grow up and grow a pair if you're so easily "antagonised".

Yes, the army of the first Dáil fought for a 32 county Ireland. And then the democratically elected government settled, rightly or wrongly, for a 26 county one. You can't turn back history. The state I live in is the result of that decision and is my reality. A reality you are welcome to share if you don't like your own reality.

I don't need to look it up, considering I'm having a debate with it.

As regards the football team, you are once again missing the point. You say you support RoI over "Northern Ireland". As if it's our state against theirs, with each team representing the populations of each state only. Technically that is true. In reality it is not, hence the technicality, you understand? I picked you up on that point as you then claimed to be a realist. A realist would realise that in the real world, "our" team represents all 32 counties, regardless of whether it is official or not. A trend I've noticed with partitionists like yourself, is you like lecturing the less enlightened of us on the reality of partition, but when something does not suit an agenda, fall back on technicalities like the above. So can you grasp that point finally?

Believe me you don't antagonise me. Again, you have missed the point. I also noticed how you have again moved the goalposts. It's now "my" threat all of a sudden? What happened to "we" don't want you's down here? I ever only replied to you to begin with as you continually acted as if you spoke on behalf of everyone in the south. Now since I picked you up on it are backtracking to "me this and me that". As I said it's nothing to do with you engaging or debating or antagonising me. It's the motive behind the fact you continually feel compelled to tell northern nationalists they are not wanted, despite there being no threat. It's the mentality of a bigot. Can you grasp that?

Don't lecture me on history. I'm well aware of what happened, which wasn't my point, and for a third time you're too stupid to realise what it is. You support an army who fought for 32 counties, regardless of what came next, and will then state you don't want 6 of them? It reeks of 1. hypocrisy and 2. "at least my areas free and that's all that matters, I don't care what happens to the rest of the Irish people". That's why others have alluded to the fact you are self serving and selfish, regardless of "what the reality is". You do realise one the ethos that this partitioned state was built on was the wish for unity? There's another "reality" I'm sure you won't agree with. It's what the founders and everyone who came next wished for. Yet you go against this belief. Such a loyal subject to this state you really are. I'm sure if this state was a person, it would consider you nothing but a genital wart that needs disposing of

katydid

The Golden Miller wrote: »

I don't know why you would say otherwise. Probably because you feel "threatened" of another state being associated with your's, since your such a loyal patriot and all that

Ok, let me rephrase it...why would you assume I would? I am Irish, first and foremost. Like you. I just live in a different state.

katydid

The Golden Miller wrote: »

I don't need to look it up, considering I'm having a debate with it.

As regards the football team, you are once again missing the point. You say you support RoI over "Northern Ireland". As if it's our state against theirs, with each team representing the populations of each state only. Technically that is true. In reality it is not, hence the technicality, you understand? I picked you up on that point as you then claimed to be a realist. A realist would realise that in the real world, "our" team represents all 32 counties, regardless of whether it is official or not. A trend I've noticed with partitionists like yourself, is you like lecturing the less enlightened of us on the reality of partition, but when something does not suit an agenda, fall back on technicalities like the above. So can you grasp that point finally?

Believe me you don't antagonise me. Again, you have missed the point. I also noticed how you have again moved the goalposts. It's now "my" threat all of a sudden? What happened to "we" don't want you's down here? I ever only replied to you to begin with as you continually acted as if you spoke on behalf of everyone in the south. Now since I picked you up on it are backtracking to "me this and me that". As I said it's nothing to do with you engaging or debating or antagonising me. It's the motive behind the fact you continually feel compelled to tell northern nationalists they are not wanted, despite there being no threat. It's the mentality of a bigot. Can you grasp that?

Don't lecture me on history. I'm well aware of what happened, which wasn't my point, and for a third time you're too stupid to realise what it is. You support an army who fought for 32 counties, regardless of what came next, and will then state you don't want 6 of them? It reeks of 1. hypocrisy and 2. "at least my areas free and that's all that matters, I don't care what happens to the rest of the Irish people". That's why others have alluded to the fact you are self serving and selfish, regardless of "what the reality is". You do realise one the ethos that this partitioned state was built on was the wish for unity? There's another "reality" I'm sure you won't agree with. It's what the founders and everyone who came next wished for. Yet you go against this belief. Such a loyal subject to this state you really are. I'm sure if this state was a person, it would consider you nothing but a genital wart that needs disposing of

Many people debate using concepts and words they don't understand. You are obviously of them. Let me explain; a xenophobe is someone who hates foreigners. Since other Irish people aren't foreigners, it would be kind of hard for me to display xenophobia towards them - leaving aside the fact that I have no hatred whatsoever towards them.

The fact that you can't understand such a simple concept puts all the rest of your ideas into question, but I'll address them anyway, just for the heck of it.

For example, your nonsense about the football teams is another example of what you call "debate". The ROI team represents the ROI, and the NI team represents NI. If they are playing each other, people from the ROI will support the ROI team. If NI are playing someone else, people from the ROI are likely to support NI, because it's Irish. It's that simple. Your rant on this is just nonsense.

So if I don't antagonise you, who do you reckon I'm antagonising?

What goalposts did I move? I am a citizen of this state. Three million or more other people also are. Me, we, it doesn't matter. We are all in this together.

You claim to be well up on history, but unfortunately you seem to need to be lectured. You pick and choose the bits of history you want, and leave out the bits you don't want. The IRA was the army of the first republic. The first republic ceased to exist and the IRA was no longer the army of the political entity that replaced it. I accept the democratic will which created the two entities.

Who said I don't care what happens to the Irish people in the North. I hope they sort out their issues, and if they do, maybe some day they will be able to join a normal society like ours. I think it's terribly sad that they live in such an abnormal society, and I hope that with time, the bigots will die off and things will start to change. But it will take decades, at the very least. Of course there is an aspiration for unity, but it has to be a realistic aspiration. We can't just leap into a united Ireland, and forcing people into a union against their will doesn't work. If Northern Ireland tells us nothing else, it tells us that. There's no point in repeating the same mistake again.

The Golden Miller

katydid wrote: »

Many people debate using concepts and words they don't understand. You are obviously of them. Let me explain; a xenophobe is someone who hates foreigners. Since other Irish people aren't foreigners, it would be kind of hard for me to display xenophobia towards them - leaving aside the fact that I have no hatred whatsoever towards them.

The fact that you can't understand such a simple concept puts all the rest of your ideas into question, but I'll address them anyway, just for the heck of it.

For example, your nonsense about the football teams is another example of what you call "debate". The ROI team represents the ROI, and the NI team represents NI. If they are playing each other, people from the ROI will support the ROI team. If NI are playing someone else, people from the ROI are likely to support NI, because it's Irish. It's that simple. Your rant on this is just nonsense.

So if I don't antagonise you, who do you reckon I'm antagonising?

What goalposts did I move? I am a citizen of this state. Three million or more other people also are. Me, we, it doesn't matter. We are all in this together.

You claim to be well up on history, but unfortunately you seem to need to be lectured. You pick and choose the bits of history you want, and leave out the bits you don't want. The IRA was the army of the first republic. The first republic ceased to exist and the IRA was no longer the army of the political entity that replaced it. I accept the democratic will which created the two entities.

Who said I don't care what happens to the Irish people in the North. I hope they sort out their issues, and if they do, maybe some day they will be able to join a normal society like ours. I think it's terribly sad that they live in such an abnormal society, and I hope that with time, the bigots will die off and things will start to change. But it will take decades, at the very least. Of course there is an aspiration for unity, but it has to be a realistic aspiration. We can't just leap into a united Ireland, and forcing people into a union against their will doesn't work. If Northern Ireland tells us nothing else, it tells us that. There's no point in repeating the same mistake again.

Jesus Christ. Xenophobia is an unreasoned fear of something perceived foreign or strange. Hence it applies here. If nothing else you see the north as strange, and you want nothing to do with it, come on here and tell northern nationalists they are not wanted. You also perceive them as foreign.

You think people support NI if they aren't playing RoI? You're joking right? Maybe you do. Vast vast majority don't. Ye so everyone in Ireland is supporting NI and chanting along when they sing "Hullo hullo we are the billy boys, we're up to our necks in fenian blood"? Have you ever even seen them play? Ignorance is bliss. Not that any of that was the point. Still can't grasp it. Like talking to a wall

3 million or more in RoI? FFS. Again not that any of your reply was anything to do with the point. I'll explain it one more time. This country is partitioned, ye. And you want it to be partitioned ye? So you think you'd be happy ye? But no, you seem obsessed with coming onto a Northern Ireland forum to spout nonsense like "we don't want you's" and other such rubbish? And why? Because it's a threat to your state as you said earlier? There is no threat. So why do you feel compelled, when the country is how you like it, to continue telling Irish from the north they aren't wanted? That is the mentality of a bigot. The type of sh1te you'd get off a loyalist even before the troubles when they already had everything their way. Do you get it now? Come on, it ain't that hard to process.

Democratic wish? You are joking right. Your warped revisionism and ignorance is staggering. So the Home Rule act of 1920 was democratic? What democratic procedures in Ireland did it pass? Walk me through it please. Who voted for it? Or was it imposed without choice?

Again, not that your final two paragraphs responded to anything I actually said. And even if the north don't sort their "issues" out, and vote to be part of a united Ireland, it won't matter one iota what you or any loyalist want, they will be joining, bigots, baggage and all

Karl Stein

katydid wrote: »

If they are playing each other, people from the ROI will support the ROI team.

As will Nationalists from the north. Also, players from the north can declare to play for the ROI team and often do. The people who murdered these innocent ROI supporters in a bar in County Down would likely have been supporters of NI.

If NI are playing someone else, people from the ROI are likely to support NI, because it's Irish. It's that simple. Your rant on this is just nonsense.

The nuances of the football teams is not your strong point.

Who said I don't care what happens to the Irish people in the North. I hope they sort out their issues, and if they do, maybe some day they will be able to join a normal society like ours.

What issues have you diagnosed them with?

I think it's terribly sad that they live in such an abnormal society, and I hope that with time, the bigots will die off and things will start to change.

The vast majority of the people in the north are just regular folk who get on with their lives. Anyone under the age of 25 will have no memory of the bad old days and the vast majority of those over that age would have been unaffected by the conflict.

circadian

I don't know where you're getting this 'abnormal society' from. You spent a total of 3 days in the north.

As Karl Stein says, the younger generation don't even remember the troubles. From my experience the old mindsets are dying off. I have many friends from different backgrounds. It's no longer a big deal for the majority, so much so that I know a lot of people in relationships with someone from a different background, myself included.

I can't beleive someone would form an opinion based on a short stay. Of course there will be remnants of the bad times, it's still settling down. I'll tell you this, the north has come on leaps and bounds even in the last 10 years. The younger generations are simply less concerned with religion/political stance.

NIMAN

circadian wrote: »

I don't know where you're getting this 'abnormal society' from. You spent a total of 3 days in the north.

As Karl Stein says, the younger generation don't even remember the troubles. From my experience the old mindsets are dying off. I have many friends from different backgrounds. It's no longer a big deal for the majority, so much so that I know a lot of people in relationships with someone from a different background, myself included.

I can't beleive someone would form an opinion based on a short stay. Of course there will be remnants of the bad times, it's still settling down. I'll tell you this, the north has come on leaps and bounds even in the last 10 years. The younger generations are simply less concerned with religion/political stance.

Not so sure this is totally true.
Of course there will be some softening of attitudes, but a lot of the ones you see involved in the flag protests etc are young people. Same with marches, there are a new breed of radicals on both sides. Did you see the rioting over flags and marches over the last couple of years in the media, mostly yougsters.

Now you might say these are just in it for the fighting rather than any politics, but is it any different to the past? We will have a section who have no trust in the 'other side' and who think the world is against them. The fact that the extreme parties continue to increase the share of the votes proves this imho.

I think on the surface things look more normal, and probably is among the middle ground in NI, but at the lower ends of society I think its only under the surface and is easily exposed.

circadian

Yes, the protests and rioting are mostly younger folks but I still don't see this as reflective of the total population of those age groups. I'm also completely in agreement that their aims aren't political and purely destructive, nothing new there.

Look elsewhere in the world, Europe even, you will see right wing groups causing similar trouble from time to time. Again, I don't think it's representative of the majority, it's just that kind of behaviour is reported because it's not the norm.

katydid

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Jesus Christ. Xenophobia is an unreasoned fear of something perceived foreign or strange. Hence it applies here. If nothing else you see the north as strange, and you want nothing to do with it, come on here and tell northern nationalists they are not wanted. You also perceive them as foreign.

You think people support NI if they aren't playing RoI? You're joking right? Maybe you do. Vast vast majority don't. Ye so everyone in Ireland is supporting NI and chanting along when they sing "Hullo hullo we are the billy boys, we're up to our necks in fenian blood"? Have you ever even seen them play? Ignorance is bliss. Not that any of that was the point. Still can't grasp it. Like talking to a wall

3 million or more in RoI? FFS. Again not that any of your reply was anything to do with the point. I'll explain it one more time. This country is partitioned, ye. And you want it to be partitioned ye? So you think you'd be happy ye? But no, you seem obsessed with coming onto a Northern Ireland forum to spout nonsense like "we don't want you's" and other such rubbish? And why? Because it's a threat to your state as you said earlier? There is no threat. So why do you feel compelled, when the country is how you like it, to continue telling Irish from the north they aren't wanted? That is the mentality of a bigot. The type of sh1te you'd get off a loyalist even before the troubles when they already had everything their way. Do you get it now? Come on, it ain't that hard to process.

Democratic wish? You are joking right. Your warped revisionism and ignorance is staggering. So the Home Rule act of 1920 was democratic? What democratic procedures in Ireland did it pass? Walk me through it please. Who voted for it? Or was it imposed without choice?

Again, not that your final two paragraphs responded to anything I actually said. And even if the north don't sort their "issues" out, and vote to be part of a united Ireland, it won't matter one iota what you or any loyalist want, they will be joining, bigots, baggage and all

Good, you looked it up. But you still haven't grasped it. Or you have failed to comprehend what "People in NI are not foreigners", or "I don't hate people from NI" mean.

NI is strange, true, but xenophobia is about far more than being strange. Sinéad O'Connor is strange; am I xenophibic for finding her a bit bonkers?

Many people would support NI if they were playing anyone other than the ROI. Of course they would, because they are fellow Irish.... You do realise, don't you, that you don't have to be a GAA playing, Fáinne wearing, tin whistle playing mass goer to be Irish? And you call ME bigoted? Unbelievable!

Actually, it's four and a half million in the Republic; but I did day three million OR MORE. So what exactly is your problem? This isn't a Northern Ireland forum. It's Board.IE. IE meaning IRELAND. Not Northern Ireland. If you want to set up a NI forum, off you go. You can whine away to your heart's content. But this is a forum open to all, and unfortunately you're going to hear unpalatable truths here; that's the way fora work. I have outlined the threat to my state; if you don't like it, tough.

Yes, democratic wish. You may have heard of it. The democratically elected government of Ireland took a decision to accede to a two state solution, and this decision was ratified by the democratic decision of the people in this state. The minority in the North may not have had a vote, but they would not have outvoted the majority in the Free State anyway. Whether you agree with the outcome of this part of history or not, it was democratic and legal, and we can't overturn it.

Doncha just hate it when you have to face facts?

circadian

Just curious, do you have anything positive to say about the north?

Jesus.

circadian wrote: »

Just curious, do you have anything positive to say about the north?

They've got lovely Flegs

circadian

Jesus. wrote: »

They've got lovely Flegs

I'll take that as a no then.

The Golden Miller

katydid wrote: »

Good, you looked it up. But you still haven't grasped it. Or you have failed to comprehend what "People in NI are not foreigners", or "I don't hate people from NI" mean.

NI is strange, true, but xenophobia is about far more than being strange. Sinéad O'Connor is strange; am I xenophibic for finding her a bit bonkers?

Many people would support NI if they were playing anyone other than the ROI. Of course they would, because they are fellow Irish.... You do realise, don't you, that you don't have to be a GAA playing, Fáinne wearing, tin whistle playing mass goer to be Irish? And you call ME bigoted? Unbelievable!

Actually, it's four and a half million in the Republic; but I did day three million OR MORE. So what exactly is your problem? This isn't a Northern Ireland forum. It's Board.IE. IE meaning IRELAND. Not Northern Ireland. If you want to set up a NI forum, off you go. You can whine away to your heart's content. But this is a forum open to all, and unfortunately you're going to hear unpalatable truths here; that's the way fora work. I have outlined the threat to my state; if you don't like it, tough.

Yes, democratic wish. You may have heard of it. The democratically elected government of Ireland took a decision to accede to a two state solution, and this decision was ratified by the democratic decision of the people in this state. The minority in the North may not have had a vote, but they would not have outvoted the majority in the Free State anyway. Whether you agree with the outcome of this part of history or not, it was democratic and legal, and we can't overturn it.

Doncha just hate it when you have to face facts?

So you perceive the north as strange and are against it due to this reason, and see it as a foreign state. How doesn't the term apply?

Again in the real world people don't support the Northern Ireland team, as they are a unionist team, the type who regularly sing anti-Irish songs, burn Irish flags etc. What don't you get? I thought you were the realist here? Trying to twist the point to call me a bigot? How, because I merely observed how most Irish people don't support them?

It's a Northern Ireland subsection. I thought that went without saying. Again not that you've responded to the point.

How is something imposed democratic? The treaty was different than the fourth Home Rule bill. It was imposed, not one had a choice. So again, where is the democracy?

Do you ever actually address anything put to you straight up, or do you always miss every point and try to be disingenuous the whole time?

katydid

circadian wrote: »

I don't know where you're getting this 'abnormal society' from. You spent a total of 3 days in the north.

As Karl Stein says, the younger generation don't even remember the troubles. From my experience the old mindsets are dying off. I have many friends from different backgrounds. It's no longer a big deal for the majority, so much so that I know a lot of people in relationships with someone from a different background, myself included.

I can't beleive someone would form an opinion based on a short stay. Of course there will be remnants of the bad times, it's still settling down. I'll tell you this, the north has come on leaps and bounds even in the last 10 years. The younger generations are simply less concerned with religion/political stance.

I don't need to spend even an hour there to know it's an abnormal society. Normal societies don't have walls dividing parts of their capital city, or have palaver every year about where people can march. And that's only the tip of the iceberg.

You are no doubt right when you say that the younger generation don't care; but that doesn't apply to all of them. There were plenty young thugs involved in the flag riots a year or so ago. Old habits die hard.

It will change, no doubt. In time. But it will take time. That's my only point; it has a long way to go before it is ready to join with a normal society like ours, which, with all its faults, is not riven with bigotry and hatred.

katydid

circadian wrote: »

Yes, the protests and rioting are mostly younger folks but I still don't see this as reflective of the total population of those age groups. I'm also completely in agreement that their aims aren't political and purely destructive, nothing new there.

Look elsewhere in the world, Europe even, you will see right wing groups causing similar trouble from time to time. Again, I don't think it's representative of the majority, it's just that kind of behaviour is reported because it's not the norm.

No, it's not reflective of the total population. No one said it is. But it exists, and it pollutes your society. It's not like the minority right wing groups you find elsewhere, which are just disaffected youths; it comes from a much deeper root, and is harder to root out.

circadian

You certainly implied that the population in general is bigotted.

katydid wrote: »

That is the place - country/state, call it what you will, that I don't want destroyed by the sickness of the Northern mindset.

I would take the statement 'Northern mindset' to mean the vast majority. Like I said, from growing up there I do not believe that bigotry and hatred is as prevelant as is being made out.

Yes it exists, just as much as racism seems to be more common in older generations both north and south of the border, but I think it's the exception rather than the rule.

Your posts often come across as generalised, granted this may not be your intention but as a northerner it does cause some offence that we are seen to have a sickness in our mindset. Do you see how that could cause offence?

I agree that a UI would bring unique problems, especially with unionism but it's not impossible nor must it be destructive.

I also see the point about youth being disruptive and rioting etc. This isn't a problem with the society per se but the institutions that are prominent there.

The Orange Order, Catholic Church and Anglican Churches can carry a lot of the blame for the social segregation. The fact that the Orange Order is now accepting more applicants from working class backgrounds rather than wealthier backgrounds speaks volumes. If you have institutions that are losing the educated classes and focusing on the less educated as a means to maintain some idea of control, it's scaremongering amongst that community and highlighting a them and us mentality.

Fair enough some of the Churches are now making an effort to bring peace and change, their efforts at creating segregating the populace in the early 1900's was purely self serving to maintain control and guarantee income.

It's a much more complex problem than claiming that people are sick or have an abnormal mindset. It's not the people that are the problem, it's the institutions and stagnant political system.

The more open discussions on a UI the more mentally prepared the younger generations will be for it.

For all it's problems, I love my home in the north and I'm proud to be a northerner. I accept criticism of the issues there but I cannot accept sweeping generalisations that are quite frankly, ignorant.

Jesus.

circadian wrote: »

The fact that the Orange Order is now accepting more applicants from working class backgrounds rather than wealthier backgrounds speaks volumes.

The OO was always packed full of working class people Circadian. Big house Unionists might have held sway within the organisation but the rank and file was made up of the average Willy

circadian

In contrast, the DUP from inception wished to pitch directly for the urban loyalist working-class vote. This was reflected in an avowed stance of being left of centre on economic issues, whilst right-wing on constitutional matters (Bruce 1986; McGarry and O’Leary 1995; Evans and Duffy 1997).

from here

and also...

In its post-GFA rise, the DUP garnered majority support from members of the Orange Order...

This would suggest a change in demographic from when the UUP were the dominant Unionist force and had a large sway in the OO.

Yes there were always working class in the OO but mostly skilled workers of some sort. The change and influx of unskilled workers and unemployed is quite visible compared to when I was younger.

I should have been clearer instead of using a broad term such as working class. Especially just after giving about generalisations!

katydid

circadian wrote: »

You certainly implied that the population in general is bigotted.



I would take the statement 'Northern mindset' to mean the vast majority. Like I said, from growing up there I do not believe that bigotry and hatred is as prevelant as is being made out.

Yes it exists, just as much as racism seems to be more common in older generations both north and south of the border, but I think it's the exception rather than the rule.

Your posts often come across as generalised, granted this may not be your intention but as a northerner it does cause some offence that we are seen to have a sickness in our mindset. Do you see how that could cause offence?

I agree that a UI would bring unique problems, especially with unionism but it's not impossible nor must it be destructive.

I also see the point about youth being disruptive and rioting etc. This isn't a problem with the society per se but the institutions that are prominent there.

The Orange Order, Catholic Church and Anglican Churches can carry a lot of the blame for the social segregation. The fact that the Orange Order is now accepting more applicants from working class backgrounds rather than wealthier backgrounds speaks volumes. If you have institutions that are losing the educated classes and focusing on the less educated as a means to maintain some idea of control, it's scaremongering amongst that community and highlighting a them and us mentality.

Fair enough some of the Churches are now making an effort to bring peace and change, their efforts at creating segregating the populace in the early 1900's was purely self serving to maintain control and guarantee income.

It's a much more complex problem than claiming that people are sick or have an abnormal mindset. It's not the people that are the problem, it's the institutions and stagnant political system.

The more open discussions on a UI the more mentally prepared the younger generations will be for it.

For all it's problems, I love my home in the north and I'm proud to be a northerner. I accept criticism of the issues there but I cannot accept sweeping generalisations that are quite frankly, ignorant.

That is your reading of what I said. A "Northern mindset" doesn't mean everyone has it... There is a sickness in your society; it has elements that don't exist in a normal society and they are something you have to deal with as a people. Of course not everyone is this way, but the affects of more than a half century of corruption and discrimination, along with forty years of murder and mayhem, have left scars on your society.

Maybe you don't like to hear that, but the way things are in the North is not normal. Normal societies don't have walls dividing communities, or people getting all riled up and "offended" about other people marching down their roads. In normal societies, your religion is a private matter, not a tribal badge for many people. In normal societies, people don't riot about the flying of the national flag.

It's a cop out to say it's institutions that are at fault; it's not institutions who riot in the street, or claim to be offended about someone walking down a road. It's not institutions that maintain the "Peace" walls. The institutions have responsibility, and they are run by people, and those people have to change.

This will change, no doubt, and when it does, that'll be great. But it will take a long time. Generations. The point is that until it is sorted out, it would be detrimental for the Republic of Ireland to take on your society, with all its unique problems. We have enough of our own.

Sheldons Brain

A United Ireland is simple normality. It is a bit rich, but typical, that people are using the abnormality of the 6 counties as a justification for opposing the very thing that would make it normal.

katydid

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

A United Ireland is simple normality. It is a bit rich, but typical, that people are using the abnormality of the 6 counties as a justification for opposing the very thing that would make it normal.

How is it "normality"? You have a normal society - the Republic, and a society that suffered forty years and more of bigotry, murder and violence and still has huge political and religious divides - the North. Put them together, and what have you got?

Not "normality", that's for sure.

Sheldons Brain

katydid wrote: »

How is it "normality"? You have a normal society - the Republic, and a society that suffered forty years and more of bigotry, murder and violence and still has huge political and religious divides - the North. Put them together, and what have you got?

Not "normality", that's for sure.

How exactly does Beleek differ from Ballyshannon, Belcoo from Blacklion, Clones from Newtonbutler, Glaslough from Middletown, Crossmaglen from Carrickmacross? If there is a difference and one is less normal than the other it is an entirely contrived difference by the imposition of abnormality at the behest of you.

katydid

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

How exactly does Beleek differ from Ballyshannon, Belcoo from Blacklion, Clones from Newtonbutler, Glaslough from Middletown, Crossmaglen from Carrickmacross? If there is a difference and one is less normal than the other it is an entirely contrived difference by the imposition of abnormality at the behest of you.

The places don't differ, but the society differs in which they exist. What they are today is influenced by the past and by the make up of society.
The difference is not contrived - the past of mayhem and murder is not contrived, neither is the bigotry.

circadian

katydid wrote: »

The places don't differ, but the society differs in which they exist. What they are today is influenced by the past and by the make up of society.
The difference is not contrived - the past of mayhem and murder is not contrived, neither is the bigotry.

Every country, region, town in the world has problems unique to it.

Is the fact that Irelands government clearly has corrupt politicians not abnormal?

Ever been to Downtown Eastside in Vancouver? Far from what most people consider normal. Canada itself has problems with racism against it's native people. Is that normal?

You're stating that it's abnormal as if it were fact. It is purely subjective and opinion. Like I said, everywhere has it's problems.

maccored

katydid wrote: »

This isn't a Northern Ireland forum. It's Board.IE. IE meaning IRELAND. Not Northern Ireland. If you want to set up a NI forum, off you go.

... and this was posted in the part of the forum reserved exclusively for talk on northern ireland. I think that outlines the kind of logic being used here - ie, not much.

eire4

circadian wrote: »

Every country, region, town in the world has problems unique to it.

Is the fact that Irelands government clearly has corrupt politicians not abnormal?

Ever been to Downtown Eastside in Vancouver? Far from what most people consider normal. Canada itself has problems with racism against it's native people. Is that normal?

You're stating that it's abnormal as if it were fact. It is purely subjective and opinion. Like I said, everywhere has it's problems.

Good point about our own government. You could add in the turning a blind eye to the decades of abuse and how thousands of our own childrens lives were destroyed and or maimed as a result. Not exactly what I would call normal either.