Kicked out with 24 hours notice

rawn

Long story.

My brother has lived in his apartment for nearly 2 years now. There's no lease. It's a bit hard to explain, but he was in a care home from the age of 15 (he's 22 now) and when he was 18 they found him shared accommodation, then when he was 20 they found him a 1-bed apartment by himself. No lease, as I said. Also he was under strict instructions not to have visitors that weren't on the approved list, not to drink on the property etc, and also that the landlord is allowed to enter the apartment unannounced between the hours of 10am and 8pm to ensure he was adhering to the rules. Now I know nobody would sign up for this haha but this is just how it is. Anyways, he was only supposed to be in the property for a year but they kept giving him more time because he had a hard time finding a job. Only 3 weeks ago he was told over the phone by the landlord that he could have another 6 weeks in the property as he just started a course. Then all of a sudden, out of nowhere, she turned up and screamed at him that he was being kicked out and he had 24 hours to get his stuff out or she would put it in storage in his old care home in town. My brother was shell-shocked and in tears. She didn't say why, and he has no idea either as he hasn't broken any rules. When I tried to call her she screamed down the phone that she would not discuss it with me. She also won't answer the phone when my brother calls now. From a legal standpoint, where does this leave him? He has nowhere to go!! Since there's no lease in place, is he just screwed?

ABajaninCork

If the landlady follows through, it means she's in the doo-doo with the PRTB!! Who pays the rent and is it current?

Get on to the PRTB and Threshold in the morning to find out where he stands...

shruikan2553

If he has a house/apartment with kitchen, bathroom etc on his own and is not just taking a part of her house then he is covered by PRTB as a part 4 tenancy. She can only evict in certain conditions and must give at least 28 days.

Also she can't randomly turn up. Mention both of these to threshold and PRTB.

MouseTail

It sounds like it might be a complex situation, and may not be a standard letting. If the HSE is involved, they may be the people to mediate.

The_Morrigan

If this is assisted/social housing the private tenancy laws won't apply unfortunately - your brother will have to contact the people who housed him. He would have had to sign something at some point, it may not have been a traditional lease, but with mention of the rules being enforced there has to be some documentation in place.

antoinolachtnai

This is obviously an extremely serious situation. No doubt the facts are complicated, and no doubt the landlord would have her own version of events, but the end result is that an extremely vulnerable person is being put out on the street, apparently without any formal procedure. I would get help from the social worker, Threshold and a local TD or county councillor as quickly as possible.

Th3B1tcH

If he has a socialworker/careworker (sounds like he has you they found him a place) get in touch with them ASAP for help
Even if he had broken a "rule" this is clearly not how to deal with a vulnerable person they need more understanding and LL shud be aware of this
Goodluck

mariaalice

What happened is that the landlord was/is being put under pressure to provide accommodation by what ever organisation is coordinating your brothers post care support, she probably said she would do it short term and had now got fed up, she is being very unprofessional in the way she is dealing with it though.

Its who ever is coordination his after care he needs to get in touch with.

Why is his suff still in the care home why hasn't he got it with him he is an adult now and need to take some responsibility to sort things for him self

rawn

mariaalice wrote: »

What happened is that the landlord was/is being put under pressure to provide accommodation by what ever organisation is coordinating your brothers post care support, she probably said she would do it short term and had now got fed up, she is being very unprofessional in the way she is dealing with it though.

Its who ever is coordination his after care he needs to get in touch with.

Why is his suff still in the care home why hasn't he got it with him he is an adult now and need to take some responsibility to sort things for him self

His stuff is in the apartment, basically she said if his stuff is still there by 5 she's going to pack it up and put it in storage in his old care home. Thanka guys for the input. I follow this forum a lot and I think I have a pretty good grasp on the rights of tenants and landlords, but was vexed at this situation. I called my brother and asked did he sign a lease. He said no, it was a verbal agreement. I asked was there any piece of paper with a list of rules that he signed and he said yes, so I'm willing to bet that's the lease (silly brother). I'm going around to help him look for it now. Hopefully that will help shed some light on the situation. I tried calling his care worker yesterday as well as the landlady but neither picked up the phone. Very frustrating!

L1011

Landlady is likely refusing to answer to your number, try hiding it on outbound (#31# before the number I think)

mariaalice

rawn wrote: »

His stuff is in the apartment, basically she said if his stuff is still there by 5 she's going to pack it up and put it in storage in his old care home. Thanka guys for the input. I follow this forum a lot and I think I have a pretty good grasp on the rights of tenants and landlords, but was vexed at this situation. I called my brother and asked did he sign a lease. He said no, it was a verbal agreement. I asked was there any piece of paper with a list of rules that he signed and he said yes, so I'm willing to bet that's the lease (silly brother). I'm going around to help him look for it now. Hopefully that will help shed some light on the situation. I tried calling his care worker yesterday as well as the landlady but neither picked up the phone. Very frustrating!

While there might be a list of rules thats not a lease that's an agreement possible worked our between the care worker, the landlord, and the client.
That's why I think the landlord was most likely approached by the care organisation and asked to take the client and the care organisation probably promised the sun moon and stars to the landlord.

mariaalice

Another thing instead of just focusing on the landlord issue you need to find out how long the after care support will go on for, care organisations are not magic.

rawn

mariaalice wrote: »

Another thing instead of just focusing on the landlord issue you need to find out how long the after care support will go on for, care organisations are not magic.

They haven't been involved with him too much lately bar a monthly meeting that they have. Usually he is left to his own devices bar some random inspections by the landlady. I tried calling on private number to the landlady and the care worker but neither will pick up. I have no idea where to find them either. I just really hope the "bit of paper" my brother signed was in fact a lease which might shed some light on it. If all else fails I'll be at the apartment at 5 to see if she does attempt to pack his stuff up.

MouseTail

Who is the care worker employed by? Don't post it here, but call the office number.

rawn

After been talking to my brother for the last few hours I seem to have had some details mixed up. He is no longer involved with any of his care workers, just his landlady. I was ringing his care worker thinking she might still be involved but got no answer, that explains that anyways. Still no word from the landlady. After thinking it over we just decided it was in my brother's better interest to avoid confrontation with her, so we took all of his stuff and put it in my dad's shed, left the keys in the place and just left it at that, for now. He's gonna sleep in my bed tonight and I'll take the floor (he has back problems) and we're going to try find him accommodation tomorrow, which will be difficult with a lack of money for a deposit, so that may have to wait until Monday when we visit the Social Welfare. Lucky he has us to help him, this could have been another vulnerable person that didn't have a support system close by. I'm still fuming about it, 24 hours notice is ridiculous. I'm sure even anti-social behavior eviction notices give a week? The last contact he had with the landlady before she turned up was over the phone on Monday, when they discussed again the extension she had given him, which was still good for another 3 weeks. I feel like I'm missing something from the story, either I'm not getting all of the info from him or she's insane.

Marcusm

Even if organised via a social worker it sounds like a private landlord so it should be the case that RTA rights apply. Had he been paying rent etc?

rawn

Marcusm wrote: »

Even if organised via a social worker it sounds like a private landlord so it should be the case that RTA rights apply. Had he been paying rent etc?

He started a course 3 weeks ago, but they haven't paid him yet due to a mix up with bank details on their part. It sounds like a no-brainer - LL gets no rent, kicks tenant out. But the LL knew about the mixup and was fine with it, she told him over and over to pay when he gets his triple week next Thursday (he pays weekly). She even mentioned on Monday on the phone to him to not worry about it. Don't get me wrong, any LL not being paid 3 weeks in a row has every right to be píssed, but she wasn't, she even said it to me that it was ok as she knew it was out of his control. If she was píssed enough to kick him out over it, she could have said 3 weeks ago and we could have loaned him the money, and in fact, I offered it to her myself and she said it was ok, she was really nice about it which only adds to my confusion!

foggy_lad

rawn wrote: »

He started a course 3 weeks ago, but they haven't paid him yet due to a mix up with bank details on their part. It sounds like a no-brainer - LL gets no rent, kicks tenant out. But the LL knew about the mixup and was fine with it, she told him over and over to pay when he gets his triple week next Thursday (he pays weekly). She even mentioned on Monday on the phone to him to not worry about it. Don't get me wrong, any LL not being paid 3 weeks in a row has every right to be píssed, but she wasn't, she even said it to me that it was ok as she knew it was out of his control. If she was píssed enough to kick him out over it, she could have said 3 weeks ago and we could have loaned him the money, and in fact, I offered it to her myself and she said it was ok, she was really nice about it which only adds to my confusion!

I'm assuming he was getting rent allowance to help paying his rent? if so then this would have stopped once he started any course and he will have had to reapply. Stupid yes but that is the system in place.

MouseTail

rawn wrote: »

He started a course 3 weeks ago, but they haven't paid him yet due to a mix up with bank details on their part. It sounds like a no-brainer - LL gets no rent, kicks tenant out. But the LL knew about the mixup and was fine with it, she told him over and over to pay when he gets his triple week next Thursday (he pays weekly). She even mentioned on Monday on the phone to him to not worry about it. Don't get me wrong, any LL not being paid 3 weeks in a row has every right to be píssed, but she wasn't, she even said it to me that it was ok as she knew it was out of his control. If she was píssed enough to kick him out over it, she could have said 3 weeks ago and we could have loaned him the money, and in fact, I offered it to her myself and she said it was ok, she was really nice about it which only adds to my confusion!

I really think there is a chunk of the story you are missing, this is a LL who housed a vulnerable person from care (albeit with fixed rules) and was ok with late rent. Maybe, just maybe she is insane. But I think it is more likely you are not hearing the full story.

rawn

MouseTail wrote: »

I really think there is a chunk of the story you are missing, this is a LL who housed a vulnerable person from care (albeit with fixed rules) and was ok with late rent. Maybe, just maybe she is insane. But I think it is more likely you are not hearing the full story.

I feel that too. I just wish she would answer her phone. In any case, there was no letter sent to him stating he had x amount of days to vacate the property. Also her first reaction to me on the phone was horrendous. They only spoke on Monday about his rent and his extension. I think I will help him contact Threshold about it, he needs a bed at least, and maybe they can help get the full story from her.

Mrs OBumble

rawn wrote: »

...he was in a care home from the age of 15 (he's 22 now) and when he was 18 they found him shared accommodation, then when he was 20 they found him a 1-bed apartment ... Also he was under strict instructions not to have visitors that weren't on the approved list, not to drink on the property etc, and also that the landlord is allowed to enter the apartment unannounced between the hours of 10am and 8pm to ensure he was adhering to the rules.

....
he was only supposed to be in the property for a year but they kept giving him more time because he had a hard time finding a job. Only 3 weeks ago he was told over the phone by the landlord that he could have another 6 weeks in the property as he just started a course. ....

she screamed down the phone that she would not discuss it with me

Reading between the lines a bit here, and taking a guess (so I could be quite wrong) Maybe the landlord had some sort of contract with whoever was providing after-care - and this contract has been terminated or something - perhaps abruptly if they became unhappy with her for some reason.

My reason for guessing this is that it's very odd for a landlord to be enforcing care-home type rules about visitors and drinking, unless there some incentive for them to be doing so. And if the contract was ended, then the people still receiving after-care support should be notified/assisted, but the ones who've now exited the system (which your brother will have done by 22) might not be.

I think your brother's decision to just go is probably the best one: if he was only supposed to be there for another six weeks, then he would have been going anyway, this has just moved it forward a bit.

And I can understand the LL not being willing to talk to you: privacy and all that should mean that adult clients should be handling their own affairs unless someone has Power of Attorney.

Do you know if the same landlord has other similar apartments, where similar things are happening? If so, then there might be a story that you can take to a journalist or somesuch, and use the media as a way of looking for other options.

Finding somewhere else is going to be painful, especially if he is in Dublin. You might need to be a little creative in terms of landlord references (he's living with you at the moment.)

Would he consider approaching any of the homeless support organisations (Focus, Simon, Cope, etc)? He probably doesn't want to end up in their emergency accommodation, but they may be able to be helpful in getting him into somewhere semi-supported, and getting in at this stage before he's been on the street as an adult will have a far better chance of success.

Maybe he could try VdP, to see if they would help with a deposit and up-front payment.

If he's in Galway, then Diocesian Youth Services have a contract to help people up to age 25, including with accommodation. I'm assuming that other places have similar services, but no idea who / where. (Maybe post in your regional forum to ask if anyone knows).

With an eye to the longer term - is he on the council housing list? A single person in their early 20s doesn't necessarily qualify - but if he's been through the care system and has a disability, they might see things differently. Especially the disability bit, which may qualify him to get into properties that are targetted and not usually available to working-age people. (You said back-condition - it may be a stretch calling it a disability - but it may be worth a try.)

Contacting Threshold won't hurt - but it might not help either as they will likely focus on the legal tenancy aspects, and that would be fairly pointless if he was due to leave in six weeks anyway.

Good luck!

Marcusm

rawn wrote: »

He started a course 3 weeks ago, but they haven't paid him yet due to a mix up with bank details on their part. It sounds like a no-brainer - LL gets no rent, kicks tenant out. But the LL knew about the mixup and was fine with it, she told him over and over to pay when he gets his triple week next Thursday (he pays weekly). She even mentioned on Monday on the phone to him to not worry about it. Don't get me wrong, any LL not being paid 3 weeks in a row has every right to be píssed, but she wasn't, she even said it to me that it was ok as she knew it was out of his control. If she was píssed enough to kick him out over it, she could have said 3 weeks ago and we could have loaned him the money, and in fact, I offered it to her myself and she said it was ok, she was really nice about it which only adds to my confusion!

There is a procedure for the LL to following involving the issuance of an arrears notice before any eviction notice can be issued. This would involve 14+21 days. Given that they refused the rent from you, they would have had difficulty issuing the arrears notice.

Unless there's some other undisclosed aspect (involving violence, threats or serious anti social behaviour) it sounds as if the LL needs a (metaphorical) slap. It's inexcusable to be so aggressive in evicting anyone, especially someone with known issues.

rawn

Just off the phone with my brother, a new problem has arisen.

He looked on daft.ie yesterday evening and found a shared-house nearby for €500. He called the LL, got a viewing within half an hour. According to my brother the LL said that the house had been empty for a while and that there was another guy that had just moved in and another would move in on Tuesday. The kitchen was disgusting, everything was damaged and in disrepair but the LL ensured them he was getting it fixed. He also said they had pre-pay power in place, but it had been cut off cos a previous tenant had done a runner and left the meter in over €100 of arrears. (Holes beginning to appear in the story). He said he would be on to the company to get it put back on that day. My brother, desperate as he was, said he would take the room, and moved all his stuff in within the hour after paying €100 deposit, and being the silly billy that he is, he never asked for a receipt. The LL rang the company and got a code from them to enter the metre to take the arrears off and switch the power back on. My brother was in the process of moving his things when the LL rang him with the code. Fast forward a few hours and he tries to put the code in, and the metre is broken! Called the company again, they said they can't send anyone to fix it til Monday. So my brother stayed in my bed (I was out for the night). He went down this morning to the house and bumped into the other tenant, who promptly informs him that he has been living there for a while now, and there has been no electricity for months as the LL refuses to pay the arrears. The guy just sleeps there and spends the rest of his day in work/gym/girlfriends. The guy hasn't paid the LL rent for over 2 months. He also informed him that the LL lets himself into the house whenever he pleases, and walks in and out of the bedrooms while there's people there! And that they had had internet in the house but the LL snipped the wires in a rage over something. So my brother took his stuff and asked for his deposit back as he wasn't exactly keen on living there and hadn't signed a lease yet. LL refuses. My brother's gf was there with him, and she called the Gards but they said it was a civil matter and to get a solicitor. When they were trying to remove his belongings the LL kept trying to close the door on them. Oh my god I am way to hungover to make sense of this. What just happened! And the funny part is, I have the unsigned lease in front of my, and at the top it has "NAME Properties, ADDRESS" but when I google it nothing comes up! There is eff all on the lease, just the rent price, blank lines for names, and an NPPR ID number. I searched the PRTB database for the address and it's not on it.

From the original situation to this is is €100 lost now? I reported the property on daft.ie as it's not suitable to be advertised, is there anything else I can do?

sasta le

Can your brother live with you or family?
Sounds like he needs minding

Get on to social services to see how he was housed and dont let him view houses without you

ABajaninCork

Tell your brother NOT to view any more properties and certainly hand over no money unless you're there to see!! He's very lucky to have you looking out for him...

I also think the deposit's gone. Probably not worth the cost of getting a solicitor to write a letter requesting the return, which the 'LL' will probably ignore anyway.

All you can do is report the address to Daft and hope it's not advertised for let through them again. Is it worth reporting to the local council too as there's apparently no electric?

rawn

There's no room. My mam lives in a tiny 1-bed apartment and there's 4 of us in my dad's 3-bed. He'll always be able to crash here but live here... no. Yeah he didn't want to disturb any of us last night because he knew we all had plans and wanted to try and take care of things himself (with the help of his girlfriend :P )

rawn

ABajaninCork wrote: »

Tell your brother NOT to view any more properties and certainly hand over no money unless you're there to see!! He's very lucky to have you looking out for him...

I also think the deposit's gone. Probably not worth the cost of getting a solicitor to write a letter requesting the return, which the 'LL' will probably ignore anyway.

All you can do is report the address to Daft and hope it's not advertised for let through them again. Is it worth reporting to the local council too as there's apparently no electric?

I think I will do that. I was looking at the PRTB site but I don't think they'll help as the lease hasn't been signed. I reported the address a few hours ago and it's still up, I don't know how long it typically takes. The local TD for the area is Ruth Coppinger and she's on a crusade to protect tenants at the moment, maybe she can help.

ABajaninCork

Find out when her surgeries are and doorstep her!! A letter/e-mail telling her of the problems in writing probably won't hurt either.

rawn

ABajaninCork wrote: »

Find out when her surgeries are and doorstep her!! A letter/e-mail telling her of the problems in writing probably won't hurt either.

Are you in the right thread? :pac:

Grandpa Hassan

rawn wrote: »

Are you in the right thread? :pac:

I assume the post refers to door stepping your TD

rawn

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

I assume the post refers to door stepping your TD

The post mentioned surgery hours, I thought he meant it for a doctor's thread