Manchester United v Swansea - BT Sport 12:45pm- Mod post in OP

Rayne Wooney

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Mata a player who has 24 goals and 36 assists in his last two full seasons in a team with Torres leading the line isn't at the top level




Mourinho sold him because he wouldn't work as a high pressing almost box to box number 10, on the attacking side Mata is one of the best in the world in that position

One of the best in the world and Chelsea let him go?

Hazard is on a different level as a playmaker

Smithwicks Man

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Mourinho sold him because he wouldn't work as a high pressing almost box to box number 10, on the attacking side Mata is one of the best in the world in that position

This. Exactly why Mourinho sold him.

rarnes1 wrote: »

One of the best in the world and Chelsea let him go?

Hazard is on a different level as a playmaker

Hazard is not a No.10 ... Apples and Oranges

Smithwicks Man

Smithwicks Man wrote: »

This. Exactly why Mourinho sold him.



Hazard is not a No.10 ... Apples and Oranges

He's an attacking midfielder who can play anywhere really from wing to playmaker can't he?

Utd have a guy in Rooney that can play the link man behind the striker as good as anyone. Utd are overloaded with number 10s.

Rayne Wooney

rarnes1 wrote: »

One of the best in the world and Chelsea let him go?

Hazard is on a different level as a playmaker

Yep

No hazard isn't, Mata even has better stats over the past two full seasons they've both had. Anyway they play different positions

Over the past 3 seasons there is no other number 10 type player in the world I can think of better than Mata, Ozil maybe on the same level. Silva and Oscar in the premier league don't match up either.

Smithwicks Man

rarnes1 wrote: »

He's an attacking midfielder who can play anywhere really from wing to playmaker can't he?

Utd have a guy in Rooney that can play the link man behind the striker as good as anyone. Utd are overloaded with number 10s.

Yes but you said "Hazard is a on a different level as a playmaker" which implied that he was going to play instead of Mata, when in reality Hazard has played and will continue to play on the left,


I agree about overloading on the 10's, that's been my point all along. United shouldn't have signed Mata.

So is there space for both Mata and Rooney in that team?

Surely some pace is needed up there? Welbeck a better option than Hernandez anyway

PhlegmyMoses

It'd be weird if Chelsea erroneously let a top level attacker go because Mourinho wasn't happy with his work rate. Take Arjen Robben as an example.......

Liam O

It annoyed me a bit last season when Kagawa was put on the left with Mata on the pitch. People are acting like he can only play in the 10 but he made his name on the left wing.

gosplan

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

It'd be weird if Chelsea erroneously let a top level attacker go because Mourinho wasn't happy with his work rate. Take Arjen Robben as an example.......

What's weird is that when Oscar lost frm last year, Chelsea lost the league and somehow Jose escapes scrutiny for this.

He absolutely blew it against some very poor teams.

Will I Amnt

Smithwicks Man wrote: »

Hazard is not a No.10 ... Apples and Oranges

Maybe Jose got rid of Luiz because Courtois is a better goalkeeper :pac:

Mr Alan

gosplan wrote: »

What's weird is that when Oscar lost frm last year, Chelsea lost the league and somehow Jose escapes scrutiny for this.

He absolutely blew it against some very poor teams.

It really is quite incredible how he escaped that criticism.

Andersonisgod

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Yep

No hazard isn't, Mata even has better stats over the past two full seasons they've both had. Anyway they play different positions

Over the past 3 seasons there is no other number 10 type player in the world I can think of better than Mata, Ozil maybe on the same level. Silva and Oscar in the premier league don't match up either.

No other number 10 in the world better than Mata? He's a player who couldn't secure a starting place under Mourinho, whose had a pretty woeful start at Man Utd and who has never been a regular starter for Spain. I think I might be missing something here. His stats are quite good but its telling that neither Spain nor Mourinho's Chelsea had him as a key player as talented as he is. Silva is different class to him, as is Ozil and Fabregas.

Ulysses Gaze

Andersonisgod wrote: »

No other number 10 in the world better than Mata? He's a player who couldn't secure a starting place under Mourinho, whose had a pretty woeful start at Man Utd and who has never been a regular starter for Spain. I think I might be missing something here. His stats are quite good but its telling that neither Spain nor Mourinho's Chelsea had him as a key player as talented as he is. Silva is different class to him, as is Ozil and Fabregas.

Mourinho sold Mata because Mata does not fit in to Mourinho's Catenaccio style football. He was moaning about both Oscar and Hazard not doing the same at points last season as well.

Andersonisgod

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

Mourinho sold Mata because Mata does not fit in to Mourinho's Catenaccio style football. He was moaning about both Oscar and Hazard not doing the same at points last season as well.

Yet he isn't selling either of those this summer and you can be sure he would have gotten a higher price for Hazard than he did for Mata.

Mata's lack of pace and strength is the difference. Technically he is terrific but he's too slow in the transition (key in Mourinho sides), ineffective at pressing, inability to go past a player, too easily dispossessed and too easily bullied out of a game. Talented though he is, imo, he is a luxury player and the very best sides cannot afford luxury players.

Y2KBOS86

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Yet he isn't selling either of those this summer and you can be sure he would have gotten a higher price for Hazard than he did for Mata.

Mata's lack of pace and strength is the difference. Technically he is terrific but he's too slow in the transition (key in Mourinho sides), ineffective at pressing, inability to go past a player, too easily dispossessed and too easily bullied out of a game. Talented though he is, imo, he is a luxury player and the very best sides cannot afford luxury players.

I agree.

Cazorla is now becoming the same at Arsenal.

Ozil and Fabregas are far more dynamic, athletic and stronger than Mata, hence they will work in a demanding Mourinho setup.

United have always been pace and power, guys like Hazard, Di Maria, Bale, Reus are what United need as attacking midfielders.

Rayne Wooney

Andersonisgod wrote: »

No other number 10 in the world better than Mata? He's a player who couldn't secure a starting place under Mourinho, whose had a pretty woeful start at Man Utd and who has never been a regular starter for Spain. I think I might be missing something here. His stats are quite good but its telling that neither Spain nor Mourinho's Chelsea had him as a key player as talented as he is. Silva is different class to him, as is Ozil and Fabregas.

I see you're nicely changing the argument as usual, over the past 3 seasons there is no other number 10 who has performed better than him that I can think of

Ozil was told he couldn't secure a starting place for Madrid wasn't he?

Talib Fiasco

Andersonisgod

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

I see you're nicely changing the argument as usual, over the past 3 seasons there is no other number 10 who has performed better than him that I can think of

Ozil was told he couldn't secure a starting place for Madrid wasn't he?

Slight difference in quality between Ozil's competition at Madrid and Mata's at Chelsea, meanwhile during that time Ozil won a World Cup as Germany's playmaker.

So I ask you, if Mata is the best number 10 in the world, why was he discarded by Chelsea? Why has he never been a regular starter for Spain? Why has he been consistently disappointing thus far for Man Utd?

He's obviously a very talented player but, like I said, there's a lot of obvious weaknesses in his game and he seems like far too much of a luxury player for the very top teams to be willing to accommodate him.

Skylinehead

Mata isn't the best no.10 in the world. However, he's a hell of a lot better than the man who replaced him in Oscar, a player who couldn't be arsed playing for the last 6 months to save himself for the World Cup. That went well.

Rayne Wooney

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Slight difference in quality between Ozil's competition at Madrid and Mata's at Chelsea, meanwhile during that time Ozil won a World Cup as Germany's playmaker.

So I ask you, if Mata is the best number 10 in the world, why was he discarded by Chelsea? Why has he never been a regular starter for Spain? Why has he been consistently disappointing thus far for Man Utd?

He's obviously a very talented player but, like I said, there's a lot of obvious weaknesses in his game and he seems like far too much of a luxury player for the very top teams to be willing to accommodate him.

I've already made it clear why he was sold by Chelsea, I'm not going to do it again because you're notorious for just completely dodging points made

Ozil had Di Maria to compete with, Mata had Oscar to compete with, both Di Maria and Oscar share similarities in why they were picked over Ozil and Mata. Ozil and Mata better attackers but don't fit the bill for what was needed in the team at the time

Mourinho has even mentioned this a few times in interviews so I don't know why I'm going over it again

Rayne Wooney

Skylinehead wrote: »

Mata isn't the best no.10 in the world. However, he's a hell of a lot better than the man who replaced him in Oscar, a player who couldn't be arsed playing for the last 6 months to save himself for the World Cup. That went well.

It's easy to dismiss an argument without giving an alternative of your own.

Over the past 3 seasons, one Mata's debut in the premier league, which number 10s have performed better?

It should be a simple answer if you're so sure

Blatter

Mata not in Silva's class? LOL.

As for those saying he's had a woeful time so far at Utd, he scored 6 goals in his last 6 PL appearances last season and had a good pre season. #woeful.

Andersonisgod

Blatter wrote: »

Mata not in Silva's class? LOL.

As for those saying he's had a woeful time so far at Utd, he scored 6 goals in his last 6 PL appearances last season and had a good pre season. #woeful.

That you've had to mention "a good pre season" pretty much says it all about how far Mata has fallen. 6 good games at the end of Man Utd's worst ever Premier League season in which he was the record signing who was supposed to make a positive impact really doesn't say a lot either.

PhlegmyMoses

The "Well why did Chelsea let him go if he is so good?" logic is ridiculous. Good players are regularly let go by top sides. Managers make mistakes. Chelsea just signed Fabrehas in this way.

PhlegmyMoses

Oh, and Mata is better than Oscar and Willian.

Andersonisgod

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

I've already made it clear why he was sold by Chelsea, I'm not going to do it again because you're notorious for just completely dodging points made

Ozil had Di Maria to compete with, Mata had Oscar to compete with, both Di Maria and Oscar share similarities in why they were picked over Ozil and Mata. Ozil and Mata better attackers but don't fit the bill for what was needed in the team at the time

Mourinho has even mentioned this a few times in interviews so I don't know why I'm going over it again

I'm not sure how I'm dodging points when I've already named 3 number 10's who have been more impressive the last 3 seasons and I'd be entirely confident naming more who are playing a level above him right now.

Difference is Ozil is far more dynamic than Mata, his attitude in Madrid was a bigger problem than what he brought to the team.

Mourinho has been kind in the aftermath of Mata's departure but it's clear why he didn't fancy him for his Chelsea team, it's obvious why Real Madrid, Barcelona, Bayern Munich, Man City ect. weren't biting his hand off for Mata last January. Of course Man Utd fans will attempt to defend the record signing but thus far he has been a disappointment and touting out the phrase "best number 10 in the world" can't justify it.

Andersonisgod

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Oh, and Mata is better than Oscar and Willian.

I don't agree, evidently Jose Mourinho also doesn't agree.

Nalz

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Well it's undeniable that:

A) his start at Utd has been underwhelming;
Mourinho is a good judge of a player and has been proven correct to dump high profile players in the past;

So why keep Torres and play him a good few times last season? In a position they clearly struggled.

Andersonisgod wrote: »

I don't agree, evidently Jose Mourinho also doesn't agree.

Willian needs time, he seemed decent last season. Oscar wasn't great and had a very poor world cup.

Mata is definitely a better player than Oscar, and a different player to Willian.

Andersonisgod

Trilla wrote: »

So why keep Torres and play him a good few times last season? In a position they clearly struggled.



Willian needs time, he seemed decent last season. Oscar wasn't great and had a very poor world cup.

Mata is definitely a better player than Oscar, and a different player to Willian.

Torres stayed and occasionally played due to Chelsea failing to land their top striker target and an inability to sell Torres due to his massive wages, it's a fault of the club, not the manager.

I don't agree that Mata is a better player than Oscar, the Brazilian had a wonderful first half to the season but he did look tired in the second half. I think Oscar is a far more complete player than Mata.

Blatter

Andersonisgod wrote: »

That you've had to mention "a good pre season" pretty much says it all about how far Mata has fallen. 6 good games at the end of Man Utd's worst ever Premier League season in which he was the record signing who was supposed to make a positive impact really doesn't say a lot either.

No, mentioning how well a player has done in pre season does not show how far a player has fallen. I've heard plenty of fans say it about Costa for eg., do you think that shows how far he has fallen? Obviously not, because that logic is idiotic.

Nalz

Andersonisgod wrote: »

That you've had to mention "a good pre season" pretty much says it all about how far Mata has fallen. 6 good games at the end of Man Utd's worst ever Premier League season in which he was the record signing who was supposed to make a positive impact really doesn't say a lot either.

• played out of position
• played in a team struggling who missed the influence of RVP who won them the league the year before, or was the big difference I should say
• lacked match fitness from being shunned at Chelsea a biting
• playing under Moyes who's "tactics" were, well lets just say a bit see through
• 6 goals from his last 6 games at United

You're being unfair imo

PhlegmyMoses

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Oh, and Mata is better than Oscar and Willian.

Mourinhio doesn't agree and I reckon he might have a better idea tbf

Nalz

rarnes1 wrote: »

Mourinhio doesn't agree and I reckon he might have a better idea tbf

Thats it so. Any successful Manager then cannot be criticized or wrong.
Fúck off would ya.... and tbf, to be fair that's a shít comment to make.

You could apply that "logic" to half the posts on boards.

Trilla

Trilla wrote: »

Thats it so. Any successful Manager then cannot be criticized or wrong.
Fúck off would ya.... and tbf, to be fair that's a shít comment to make.

You could apply that "logic" to half the posts on boards.

Nalz

rarnes1 wrote: »

big time class manager sells a great player
someone compares that player to another player that big manager kept and plays regularly

and they're wrong to even bother comparing them because the big manager knows better

yeah :cool:

Andersonisgod

Blatter wrote: »

No, mentioning how well a player has done in pre season does not show how far a player has fallen. I've heard plenty of fans say it about Costa for eg., do you think that shows how far he has fallen? Obviously not, because that logic is idiotic.

I think though if we were to discuss the merits of Diego Costa, as we are Mata, we would mention him firing Atletico Madrid to a historic La Liga title, breaking the duopoly of Real Madrid and Barcelona. We would mention his fantastic efforts in driving Atletico to a Champions League final. We would mention his fearsome strike partnership with Falcao and his big role in their Copa Del Rey victory campaign. We wouldn't first mention his "good pre season"

Smithwicks Man

Andersonisgod wrote: »

I think though if we were to discuss the merits of Diego Costa, as we are Mata, we would mention him firing Atletico Madrid to a historic La Liga title, breaking the duopoly of Real Madrid and Barcelona. We would mention his fantastic efforts in driving Atletico to a Champions League final. We would mention his fearsome strike partnership with Falcao and his big role in their Copa Del Rey victory campaign. We wouldn't first mention his "good pre season"

Would you mention his embarrassing World Cup display?

Trilla

Trilla wrote: »

big time class manager sells a great player
someone compares that player to another player that big manager kept and plays regularly

and they're wrong to even bother comparing them because the big manager knows better

yeah :cool:

Look, I only said Mourinhio should have more of a clue than us forum posters. He worked with the player.

Andersonisgod

Smithwicks Man wrote: »

Would you mention his embarrassing World Cup display?

The same World Cup in which Mata hardly featured?

Additional note: Costa was clearly still hampered by the injury which disrupted the end of his season, the difference in fitness between Costa at the World Cup and Costa at the moment is as clear as day.

Smithwicks Man

Andersonisgod wrote: »

The same World Cup in which Mata hardly featured?

Additional note: Costa was clearly still hampered by the injury which disrupted the end of his season, the difference in fitness between Costa at the World Cup and Costa at the moment is as clear as day.

Hardly featuring is not the same as playing poorly - People can be selective in what to mention when praising/criticizing a player.

Mata was one of the best No.10's in world football during his first 2 seasons at Chelsea and then he didn't suit Mourinho's style of play so he sold him.

United shouldn't have signed him imo, but he is still a very good player.

PhlegmyMoses

rarnes1 wrote: »

Mourinhio doesn't agree and I reckon he might have a better idea tbf

This is terrible logic as well. What if Ferguson agrees with me that Mata is better? Or Guardiola and Wenger? Where are we then?

Or we could lay off the appeal to authority arguments and use our own eyes?

Andersonisgod

Smithwicks Man wrote: »

Hardly featuring is not the same as playing poorly - People can be selective in what to mention when praising/criticizing a player.

Mata was one of the best No.10's in world football during his first 2 seasons at Chelsea and then he didn't suit Mourinho's style of play so he sold him.

United shouldn't have signed him imo, but he is still a very good player.

It's worse, its not being selected for a side doing poorly. If you were to compare his caps and contributions to Spain's major tournament exploits in comparison to David Silva, David Villa, Andres Iniesta, Cesc Fabregas, Xavi Hernandez there is a significant difference.

As I said, he's a very talented player but his omissions from Chelsea and Spain are telling.

Smithwicks Man

Andersonisgod wrote: »

It's worse, its not being selected for a side doing poorly. If you were to compare his caps and contributions to Spain's major tournament exploits in comparison to David Silva, David Villa, Andres Iniesta, Cesc Fabregas, Xavi Hernandez there is a significant difference.

As I said, he's a very talented player but his omissions from Chelsea and Spain are telling.

What you've said about Diego Costa could also be said about Mata though?

Mata was Chelsea's best player in his first two seasons and was instrumental in helping them win their first ever Champions League.

Also, you can't constantly talk about that Spain team being the "greatest team in history" on every other thread and then criticize Mata for not being a key player for them. His 10 goals in 34 appearances is hardly underwhelming either

His omission from Chelsea was down to managerial preference. Chelsea were lucky to get £37m for a player that Mourinho had made up his mind about before even arriving at the club.

PhlegmyMoses

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

This is terrible logic as well. What if Ferguson agrees with me that Mata is better? Or Guardiola and Wenger? Where are we then?

Or we could lay off the appeal to authority arguments and use our own eyes?

It's terrible logic to say one of the best managers in the world thinks a player isn't good enough?

Fair enough.


He might be good enough for Utd btw but as for competing for the league/CL Mourinhio obviously thinks he wouldn't cut it and that's fair enough.

Who's to say he won't be proved wrong? He could well be. Time will tell

Andersonisgod

Smithwicks Man wrote: »

What you've said about Diego Costa could also be said about Mata though?

Mata was Chelsea's best player in his first two seasons and was instrumental in helping them win their first ever Champions League.

Also, you can't constantly talk about that Spain team being the "greatest team in history" on every other thread and then criticize Mata for not being a key player for them. His 10 goals in 34 appearances is hardly underwhelming either

His omission from Chelsea was down to managerial preference. Chelsea were lucky to get £37m for a player that Mourinho had made up his mind about before even arriving at the club.

Can it though? Costa is at the height of his game, he's coming off his best ever season.

Debatable point and he played a role but instrumental is stretching it, I'd argue Drogba, Cech, Lampard, Cole were all more important in that particular run but I'm not here for semantics.

Well if he is, as I'm seeing being claimed, the best number 10 in the world then actually yes I would have expected him to play a far greater role for the national team.

I hardly think Mourinho didn't give him a chance but it was painfully obvious how out of place he was in Mourinho's Chelsea side. The debate isn't if Mata is a very good player, of course he is, but I argue he is a luxury player and not the best number 10 in the world.

Smithwicks Man

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Can it though? Costa is at the height of his game, he's coming off his best ever season.

Debatable point and he played a role but instrumental is stretching it, I'd argue Drogba, Cech, Lampard, Cole were all more important in that particular run but I'm not here for semantics.

Well if he is, as I'm seeing being claimed, the best number 10 in the world then actually yes I would have expected him to play a far greater role for the national team.

I hardly think Mourinho didn't give him a chance but it was painfully obvious how out of place he was in Mourinho's Chelsea side. The debate isn't if Mata is a very good player, of course he is, but I argue he is a luxury player and not the best number 10 in the world.

Not once did I say he was the best No.10 in the world.

Smithwicks Man wrote: »

Mata was one of the best No.10's in world football during his first 2 seasons at Chelsea and then he didn't suit Mourinho's style of play so he sold him.

United shouldn't have signed him imo, but he is still a very good player.

Andersonisgod

Smithwicks Man wrote: »

Not once did I say he was the best No.10 in the world.

I've interjected in this because I am reading about how apparently he has been the best number 10 in the world over the last 3 seasons, it's simply untrue, he wasn't then, he isn't now.

PhlegmyMoses

rarnes1 wrote: »

It's terrible logic to say one of the best managers in the world thinks a player isn't good enough?

Fair enough.

Haha, you're back tracking. This statement above is reasonable and factual. But that's not what you said and not what I disagreed with.

The point you made is that Mourinho thinks Oscar and Willian are better and he knows more than us so we should cede to his superior authority on the subject.

But follow it through to the logical conclusion. What if Fergie and Guardiola and Wenger all agree with me? Who is the foremost authority?

David Moyes has managed to a high level for years, despite what we think of him. I've never managed a local team. Should we all add weight to his opinions more than our own? Brian Kerr? John Giles? Alan Shearer?

Smithwicks Man

Andersonisgod wrote: »

I've interjected in this because I am reading about how apparently he has been the best number 10 in the world over the last 3 seasons, it's simply untrue, he wasn't then, he isn't now.

Where is it that you're reading these things?

So instead of arguing the point I've made, you're just going to throw in a point of your own and disagree with that? :pac:

Nalz

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

This is terrible logic as well. What if Ferguson agrees with me that Mata is better? Or Guardiola and Wenger? Where are we then?

Or we could lay off the appeal to authority arguments and use our own eyes?

That was my point exactly, although i was a bit uncivil and blunt about it. Apologies for that.