Manchester United v Swansea - BT Sport 12:45pm- Mod post in OP

PhlegmyMoses

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Haha, you're back tracking. This statement above is reasonable and factual. But that's not what you said and not what I disagreed with.

The point you made is that Mourinho thinks Oscar and Willian are better and he knows more than us so we should cede to his superior authority on the subject.

But follow it through to the logical conclusion. What if Fergie and Guardiola and Wenger all agree with me? Who is the foremost authority?

David Moyes has managed to a high level for years, despite what we think of him. I've never managed a local team. Should we all add weight to his opinions more than our own? Brian Kerr? John Giles? Alan Shearer?

Not backtracking at all.

Mourinhio would know more than me or you about Mata I'm sure and that was my point.

What if Pelligrini agrees with me? :pac:

PhlegmyMoses

rarnes1 wrote: »

Not backtracking at all.

Mourinhio would know more than me or you about Mata I'm sure and that was my point.

What if Pelligrini agrees with me? :pac:

I think the real answer here is that Mourinho has a specific idea for his teams and Mata didn't fit what he wanted. I think he suffered for that last year and could have used Mata at times.

I also think that Mata was not the signing United needed at the time and that the lack of pace in United's front line hurts him.

Still think he's better than Oscar and Willian :pac:

Andersonisgod

Smithwicks Man wrote: »

Where is it that you're reading these things?

So instead of arguing the point I've made, you're just going to throw in a point of your own and disagree with that? :pac:

I read it earlier in the thread, debated that point then you interjected and I'm not entirely sure what exactly you are debating.

Smithwicks Man

Andersonisgod wrote: »

I read it earlier in the thread, debated that point then you interjected and I'm not entirely sure what exactly you are debating.

I see. Debate over.

Andersonisgod

Smithwicks Man wrote: »

I see. Debate over.

I'm not sure it ever began for some.

Smithwicks Man

Andersonisgod wrote: »

I'm not sure it ever began for some.

True, your overuse of the word "interject" was too much of a distraction.

Skylinehead

Andersonisgod wrote: »

I don't agree, evidently Jose Mourinho also doesn't agree.

Come off it, the only reasonable attribute Oscar has over Mata is his workrate. He doesn't have the same productivity, and goes completely missing for months at a time - see January to the end of last season.

Andersonisgod

Smithwicks Man wrote: »

True, your overuse of the word "interject" was too much of a distraction.

Evidently, it proved so distracting that it left you entirely bereft of a point.

Andersonisgod

Skylinehead wrote: »

Come off it, the only reasonable attribute Oscar has over Mata is his workrate. He doesn't have the same productivity, and goes completely missing for months at a time - see January to the end of last season.

Apart from speed, strength, far quicker in transitions, far more versatile, much better man marker, ability to go past a player, apart from all of that he has nothing over Mata.....

Skylinehead

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Apart from speed, strength, far quicker in transitions, far more versatile, much better man marker, ability to go past a player, apart from all of that he has nothing over Mata.....

True, he's more physical. Goes hand in hand with the workrate. I'd completely disagree with the transitions, Mata is far more capable technically.

So what about the things that really matter for a no 10 - actually being able to play the final ball in? Creativity-wise, Oscar isn't even close. Plus, like I mentioned, he disappears entirely for months, which I wouldn't class as a good thing.

Andersonisgod

Skylinehead wrote: »

True, he's more physical. Goes hand in hand with the workrate. I'd completely disagree with the transitions, Mata is far more capable technically.

So what about the things that really matter for a no 10 - actually being able to play the final ball in? Creativity-wise, Oscar isn't even close. Plus, like I mentioned, he disappears entirely for months, which I wouldn't class as a good thing.

Oscar is entirely accomplished in terms of creating. Also that you use a few months as an indicator that he will routinely go missing for months for the duration of his career is a bit ridiculous, the reality is that he has played so much football at such a young age and the home World Cup was impending. It's the equivalent of saying "Mata disappeared in the first half of last season"

Blatter

AIG, did you ever think Mata was a great, great player?

Andersonisgod

Blatter wrote: »

AIG, did you ever think Mata was a great, great player?

I still think he is a very talented player, wonderfully gifted and technically proficient, but no, I don't think he is the best number 10 in the world and that, in terms of the very best teams, he is an unnecessary luxury.

Blatter

Andersonisgod wrote: »

I still think he is a very talented player, wonderfully gifted and technically proficient, but no, I don't think he is the best number 10 in the world and that, in terms of the very best teams, he is an unnecessary luxury.

Were you making this point during the 12/13 season when he racked up 35 assists and 20 goals?

Andersonisgod

Blatter wrote: »

Were you making this point during the 12/13 season when he racked up 35 assists and 20 goals?

Probably not but case in point, where did we finish that season? We were also eliminated from the Champions League at the group stage. Obviously that's not all down to Mata who, individually, had a fantastic season, but it's what he lacks that the team must compensate for and Mourinho judged that to be too much, personally I agree.

Blatter

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Probably not but case in point, where did we finish that season? We were also eliminated from the Champions League at the group stage. Obviously that's not all down to Mata who, individually, had a fantastic season, but it's what he lacks that the team must compensate for and Mourinho judged that to be too much, personally I agree.

Mata was the main reason Chelsea finished as high as they did that season, not one of the reasons they didn't finish higher!

Mourinho has his way of playing and he feels other players fit into his system better than Mata. That's fair enough.

But let's not pretend that there's not plenty of other top managers that play systems which Mata would slot into seamlessly and they would prefer him to Oscar or Willian. That's fairly clear cut imo.

Andersonisgod

Blatter wrote: »

Mata was the main reason Chelsea finished as high as they did that season, not one of the reasons they didn't finish higher!

Mourinho has his way of playing and he feels other players fit into his system better than Mata. That's fair enough.

But let's not pretend that there's not plenty of other top managers that play systems which Mata would slot into seamlessly and they would prefer him to Oscar or Willian. That's fairly clear cut imo.

Or, if you'd like to consider an alternative view for a moment, we built the team around Mata and had our worst CL campaign and a disappointing league campaign too.

Yes that's true.

Your third paragraph however isn't. Where were Bayern? Real Madrid (who he's been with before)? Barcelona? Even PSG with one of their crazy money bids? Man City? Only Man Utd panicked and paid over the odds for him. But hey, we will see this season, he's at a big club, in a system tailor made for him, let's see what Man Utd win, let's see how he does.

Talib Fiasco

Meh Silva>

Liam O

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Or, if you'd like to consider an alternative view for a moment, we built the team around Mata and had our worst CL campaign and a disappointing league campaign too.

Yes that's true.

Your third paragraph however isn't. Where were Bayern? Real Madrid (who he's been with before)? Barcelona? Even PSG with one of their crazy money bids? Man City? Only Man Utd panicked and paid over the odds for him. But hey, we will see this season, he's at a big club, in a system tailor made for him, let's see what Man Utd win, let's see how he does.

Your boys were interested in him this Summer apparently. Wonder how this conversation would be going if he'd have moved?

Blatter

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Or, if you'd like to consider an alternative view for a moment, we built the team around Mata and had our worst CL campaign and a disappointing league campaign too.

Yes that's true.

Your third paragraph however isn't. Where were Bayern? Real Madrid (who he's been with before)? Barcelona? Even PSG with one of their crazy money bids? Man City? Only Man Utd panicked and paid over the odds for him. But hey, we will see this season, he's at a big club, in a system tailor made for him, let's see what Man Utd win, let's see how he does.

So you think a team that builds around Mata can't be a top class side? Is that what you are saying? I'd have to disagree.

Were the clubs you mentioned in the market for a #10 when Mata was put on the market?

Smithwicks Man

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Or, if you'd like to consider an alternative view for a moment, we built the team around Mata and had our worst CL campaign and a disappointing league campaign too.

Yes that's true.

Your third paragraph however isn't. Where were Bayern? Real Madrid (who he's been with before)? Barcelona? Even PSG with one of their crazy money bids? Man City? Only Man Utd panicked and paid over the odds for him. But hey, we will see this season, he's at a big club, in a system tailor made for him, let's see what Man Utd win, let's see how he does.

Ridiculous method of thinking as always.

Sure Hazard must be useless. After all, despite a great season, he must be the reason Chelsea only finished 2nd last season?

The last line is the best of all. By your logic, no player can be a top player unless his club wins something which is ludicrous.

Andersonisgod

Liam O wrote: »

Your boys were interested in him this Summer apparently. Wonder how this conversation would be going if he'd have moved?

I read a lot of Barca links, I didn't hear that one being talked about seriously at all, also really there's no place for him in Tue current Barcelona side.

Andersonisgod

Blatter wrote: »

So you think a team that builds around Mata can't be a top class side? Is that what you are saying? I'd have to disagree.

Were the clubs you mentioned in the market for a #10 when Mata was put on the market?

Actually yes, yes that's exactly what I'm saying.

If he is "the greatest number 10 in the world" as was being claimed, then surely these clubs would be interested once it became known he was available.

Andersonisgod

Smithwicks Man wrote: »

Ridiculous method of thinking as always.

Sure Hazard must be useless. After all, despite a great season, he must be the reason Chelsea only finished 2nd last season?

The last line is the best of all. By your logic, no player can be a top player unless his club wins something which is ludicrous.

2nd and a Champions League semi final, there's a difference.

As I say, let's see how he does this season. The jury is out, discarded by Chelsea, a bit part player with Spain, a disappointing start to life at Man Utd, how long do we wait until "the best number 10 in the world" sparks into life?

Backstreet Moyes

rarnes1 wrote: »

It's terrible logic to say one of the best managers in the world thinks a player isn't good enough?

Fair enough.


He might be good enough for Utd btw but as for competing for the league/CL Mourinhio obviously thinks he wouldn't cut it and that's fair enough.

Who's to say he won't be proved wrong? He could well be. Time will tell

The same Mata who was their player of the year when they won the Champions League?

Smithwicks Man

Andersonisgod wrote: »

2nd and a Champions League semi final, there's a difference.

As I say, let's see how he does this season. The jury is out, discarded by Chelsea, a bit part player with Spain, a disappointing start to life at Man Utd, how long do we wait until "the best number 10 in the world" sparks into life?

Nonsensical logic. By your reasoning David Villa must be better than Messi seeing as Atletico won the league and got to the CL final and Barca done sweet f**k all.

Also, you've said the best number 10 in the world about forty times and I've yet to see anybody else call him that.

The fact remains that Mata firmly established himself as one of the best No.10's in the world during his first two seasons at Chelsea. Mourinho arrived and decided that he didn't suit his style of play, whether due to work ethic or whatever, which is fair enough. But in no way does that automatically mean that Oscar and Willian are better players than him.

Also, I've never seen the word "discarded" being used to describe the sale of a player for 37 million pound.

Blatter

What's very hypocritical is his championing of Ozil in this thread (and in other threads) when he has very similar defensive deficiencies, if not worst than Mata in that respect.

KERSPLAT!

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Yep

No hazard isn't, Mata even has better stats over the past two full seasons they've both had. Anyway they play different positions

Over the past 3 seasons there is no other number 10 type player in the world I can think of better than Mata, Ozil maybe on the same level. Silva and Oscar in the premier league don't match up either.

.

Andersonisgod

Smithwicks Man wrote: »

Nonsensical logic. By your reasoning David Villa must be better than Messi seeing as Atletico won the league and got to the CL final and Barca done sweet f**k all.

Also, you've said the best number 10 in the world about forty times and I've yet to see anybody else call him that.

The fact remains that Mata firmly established himself as one of the best No.10's in the world during his first two seasons at Chelsea. Mourinho arrived and decided that he didn't suit his style of play, whether due to work ethic or whatever, which is fair enough. But in no way does that automatically mean that Oscar and Willian are better players than him.

Also, I've never seen the word "discarded" being used to describe the sale of a player for 37 million pound.

I suggest you browse back through the thread, there you will also find 3 names I thought of off the top of my head that are better number 10's (Ozil, Fabregas and Silva) interesting that I didn't mention Oscar or Willian but someone else brought them up because arguing the other 3 are far more difficult.

I'll say it again, the best number 10 in the world is a bit part player for his country, discarded (yes discarded!) By Chelsea and has been disappointing for his new club, interesting stuff.

Yes discarded is accurate, big fee convinced us to sell to a rival but much like De Bruyne, Lukaku and Luiz he wasn't essential.

Kirby

I like Mata, a lot but Silva offers everything he does and more. City have done a blinder to get him on another long term deal.

He is quality and even if you are a stats man (I am not), the stats back that up too. He is the perfect creative player and out performed Ozil and Mata on a consistent basis.

Smithwicks Man

Andersonisgod wrote: »

I suggest you browse back through the thread, there you will also find 3 names I thought of off the top of my head that are better number 10's (Ozil, Fabregas and Silva) interesting that I didn't mention Oscar or Willian but someone else brought them up because arguing the other 3 are far more difficult.

I'll say it again, the best number 10 in the world is a bit part player for his country, discarded (yes discarded!) By Chelsea and has been disappointing for his new club, interesting stuff.

Yes discarded is accurate, big fee convinced us to sell to a rival but much like De Bruyne, Lukaku and Luiz he wasn't essential.

I saw the post there. Hardly think there was any need to mention it in every reply to me though seeing as I wasn't the one who said it.

Some other poster mentioned Oscar and Willian as being better than Mata so I thought I'd to similar to you and throw it in my reply.


With regards to Ozil, Fabregas and Silva. I would say that Mata was better than Fabregas in 11/12 and 12/13 but obviously he had a poor season last year. Ozil and Silva have been more consistent across the 3 years but Mata in 12/13 was really something special.

Overall though Silva has been better across the 3 years, Ozil is debatable, Fabregas hasn't.

Kirby

Kirby wrote: »

I like Mata, a lot but Silva offers everything he does and more. City have done a blinder to get him on another long term deal.

He is quality and even if you are a stats man (I am not), the stats back that up too. He is the perfect creative player and out performed Ozil and Mata on a consistent basis.

I'd prefer Silva every day of the week, incredible player

Rayne Wooney

Mourinho said a few months into the league that Mata would have to work harder in his position when the team don't have the ball to play more, when he was sold Mourinho said he didn't fit into the position he wanted him to play so it was best for both parties for him to leave

Schwiiing

Nice to see last years trend of match threads where Utd lost being dragged out for days after. I wonder will any threads where Utd win get the same treatment.

Skylinehead

Schwiiing wrote: »

Nice to see last years trend of match threads where Utd lost being dragged out for days after. I wonder will any threads where Utd win get the same treatment.

Perhaps if it had actually been days when you'd posted this, you might have had a point.

Pro. F

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Actually yes, yes that's exactly what I'm saying.

If he is "the greatest number 10 in the world" as was being claimed, then surely these clubs would be interested once it became known he was available.

Nobody in this thread has said that.

Kerrigooney

Pro. F wrote: »

Nobody in this thread has said that.

Rayne Wooney did. It was quoted 8 posts up.

Will I Amnt

Kerrigooney wrote: »

Rayne Wooney did. It was quoted 8 posts up.

If we're being pedantic he said joint best.

Pro. F

Kerrigooney wrote: »

Rayne Wooney did. It was quoted 8 posts up.

I stand corrected.

Still no excuse for the bollocks that's being talked in this thread.

Kerrigooney

Pro. F wrote: »

I stand corrected.

Still no excuse for the bollocks that's being talked in this thread.

True enough.

Rayne Wooney

I was talking about performance over the past 3 seasons

Cypher_sounds

Cesc Fabergas, Ozil and Mata were all "discarded" by their clubs, that doesn't make them any lesser of players, they are still world class players.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Schwiiing wrote: »

Nice to see last years trend of match threads where Utd lost being dragged out for days after. I wonder will any threads where Utd win get the same treatment.

That's nothing to do with United - it's the same with the Liverpool ones (especially before Rodgers) and pretty much any team that suffers an upset.

LuckyLloyd

Schwiiing wrote: »

Nice to see last years trend of match threads where Utd lost being dragged out for days after. I wonder will any threads where Utd win get the same treatment.

I'll save you the suspense: no. Happens for both Liverpool and Utd. If this annoys you you're just going to have to hope Utd lose at a lower frequency.

The exception was the tailend of last season when Utd had no competitive relevance left, so this would also stop if you can no longer qualify for CL / get relegated.

Barely There

Must be a sickening result for Utd. I'm sure they were hoping for a clean break from the horror-show of last season, but instead they've managed to destroy all the pre-season confidence.

Further example today of how the fear-factor of playing Utd is just gone now and I expect lots of teams will target an away trip to OT for the 3 points.

Lord TSC

I'm closing this topic then, as per the feedback we received in the Feedback thread. It's overrun it's course now, and the discussion is circling and starting to descend into snipes at posters.