woman refused abortion - Mod Note in first post.

lazygal

myshirt wrote: »

What about the baby lazygal?

What crime did that child commit?

It is the scumbag who raped that is the criminal. It is an appalling, appalling crime. Undoubtedly. But don't let the reaction be to kill a child is my plea, please.

The death of a child is never a good outcome. It does not resolve it. Abortion in that case lends to a culture of a one stop solution for women; which is a lie; it's failing them when they need resources; and it kills babies.

There are so many better outcomes that can occur from traumatic or difficult situations.

Is your better outcome adoption? Adoption is for unwanted children, not unwanted pregnancies. Abortion isn't always the solution to an unwanted or crisis pregnancy but forcing women to remain pregnant and gestate a foetus, and then give birth, is barbaric, no matter how you dress it up. I've had two children and two sections and no woman should have to go through one unwanted pregnancy and section against her wishes, especially if her life, health or mental well being is at risk.

myshirt

Lazygal, pregnancy and childbirth are natural and innate.

Good maternal care services are the answer the difficulties you reference, not abortion.

Thankfully, Ireland is one of the safest places to have a baby in the world. That can be embraced rather than the boat to England.

Adoption is a solution, yes. There are many, a long list. And we must endeavour to make that list longer before we ever reach termination as an answer. Killing a baby is never a good outcome.

efb

myshirt wrote: »

Lazygal, pregnancy and childbirth are natural and innate.

Good maternal care services are the answer the difficulties you reference, not abortion.

Thankfully, Ireland is one of the safest places to have a baby in the world. That can be embraced rather than the boat to England.

Adoption is a solution, yes. There are many, a long list. And we must endeavour to make that list longer before we ever reach termination as an answer. Killing a baby is never a good outcome.

treating a woman's body like a vessel isn't a good outcome either

myshirt

efb wrote: »

treating a woman's body like a vessel isn't a good outcome either

You'd rather have a child killed than help a woman through the most natural process in the world?

efb

myshirt wrote: »

You'd rather have a child killed than help a woman through the most natural process in the world?

I'd rather give woman the autonomy over their bodies that men have.

Kiwi in IE

RDM_83 again wrote: »

I understand how this my close and extend family are involved in the mental health field is an issue but from this I understand that a lot of evalutation involves a weighing up of probabilities, can I ask though , in your view is there any way of having a restrictive regime in relation to abortion and having an evaluation relating to psychiatric distress? and in relation to this idea, if someone is a what is judged as a serious risk to themselves or others why coercive confinement should not be an applied either the risk is serious or its not and from my knowledge I don;t think termination of pregnancy is recommended with any DSM, you can correct me if I am wrong but I don;t think this is the case.

Your post is very hard to read, but from what I can glean you are suggesting forcibly confining suicidal pregnant women who request abortions and forcing them to continue the pregnancy and give birth against their will whilst confined? I hope I am misunderstanding because I find it extremely hard to believe that anyone who thinks like that has an ounce of kindness, decency or humanity.

myshirt

No one is treating the woman as a vessel. It is the woman who feels like she is a vessel.

That is a perspective issue. Psychology will tell you that it is not the world that determines how you feel about yourself, but the lens you view it through.

The woman can be helped. The baby can survive. Please at least tell me you want to see babies being given a chance? And the underlying issue with the woman treated - i.e how she views the world, and not how the world views her. Her body is not a vessel, this is not medical experimentation from Nazi Germany times.

krankykitty

How is it ethical what has been done. Delivering an unwanted baby at 25 weeks? That baby could be possibly suffering right now and more than likely will have lifelong health issues, not to mention potential mental health issues as a result of how they came to be. Adoption is held up by prolifers as some sort of wonderful solution but it comes with its own problems for the child involved.

If this case has proven anything, its that they don't give a fudge about babies, only foetuses. We knew they didn't care about women anyway, no scrap that they hold them in complete contempt.

I don't know how anyone can think this woman wasn't being treated like a vessel. Fobbed off until the earliest gestation they could deliver. This woman has basically been raped twice, once by the state

myshirt

efb wrote: »

I'd rather give woman the autonomy over their bodies that men have.

Now we are getting into bra burning territory.

Kiwi in IE

myshirt wrote: »

You'd rather have a child killed than help a woman through the most natural process in the world?

Being raped, forced to continue with the resulting pregnancy and then giving birth to the rapists child against one's will is 'the most natural process in the world'?

It is sick that people can defend what happened to this woman.

efb

myshirt wrote: »

Now we are getting into bra burning territory.

I am a bit heavy, but I have resisted wearing a bra to date

lazygal

myshirt wrote: »

Now we are getting into bra burning territory.

I beg to differ. I'm wearing a nursing bra as I breastfeed my child right now.

efb

Railwayzurich wrote: »

Forcing an unborn child old enough to feel pain to die is barbaric no matter how you dress it up.

Welcome to boards!

krankykitty

Railwayzurich wrote: »

Forcing an unborn child old enough to feel pain to die is barbaric no matter how you dress it up.

And what about the pain the actual born child is feeling right now? It's no walk in the park being so premature. If the rape victim had been able to access an abortion at 8 weeks as she requested, there currently wouldn't be an actual child suffering right now.

Phoebas

krankykitty wrote: »

And what about the pain the actual born child is feeling right now? It's no walk in the park being so premature. If the rape victim had been able to access an abortion at 8 weeks as she requested, there currently wouldn't be an actual child suffering right now.

The child is doing well according to the Indo.

Indo wrote:

The child was born at 25 weeks and is understood to be doing well.

miss no stars

Railwayzurich wrote: »

I agree that there should be early access to abortion clinics to prevent such situations from occurring. Imo it's wrong to abort a foetus capable of living outside the womb.

Do you agree that it's wrong to force a rape victim to continue carrying her rapist's child after she - at 8 weeks - becomes aware of the pregnancy, just so the target of 25 weeks can be reached and a barely viable, probably very sick little premature baby can be delivered into the world?

There is more in todays Indo. The timeframe waas three weeks.
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/abortion-case-timeline-of-events-30513416.html
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/health/i-am-afraid-ill-be-killed-abortion-case-woman-believed-her-life-was-in-danger-30513878.html

krankykitty

Phoebas wrote: »

The child is doing well according to the Indo.

"Doing well" is a relative term.

RobertKK

It is good there are now two lives instead of one, and the baby is doing well, as hopefully is the mother who was originally not making the right decision for her unborn.

The unborn or the pregnant mother in a rape case is not the guilty party, abortion is not the answer to rape, abortion just creates more victims.

Phoebas

krankykitty wrote: »

"Doing well" is a relative term.

Relative to not doing anything, 'doing well' seems like a pretty good outcome from the child's pov.

krankykitty

Phoebas wrote: »

Relative to not doing anything, 'doing well' seems like a pretty good outcome from the child's pov.

It doesn't mean they aren't suffering though. They still may not survive. 25 weeks is extremely early.

miss no stars

RobertKK wrote: »

It is good there are now two lives instead of one, and the baby is doing well, as hopefully is the mother who was originally not making the right decision for her unborn.

The unborn or the pregnant mother in a rape case is not the guilty party, abortion is not the answer to rape, abortion just creates more victims.

What if she subsequently commits suicide? Forcefully hydrating her, coercing her into having a c-section, knowing that there's a child in the world that she carried because of her attack, watching babies as they go by (and later children) wondering if that is THE one.

I'm sorry but right was not done here.

There seems to be substantial confusion about the exact details but it sure as hell is not looking like a win-win scenario.

Phoebas

krankykitty wrote: »

It doesn't mean they aren't suffering though. They still may not survive. 25 weeks is extremely early.

Obviously, we all hope that the long term outcome for all parties is a happy and healthy one.

miss no stars

Phoebas wrote: »

Obviously, we all hope that the long term outcome for all parties is a happy and healthy one.

I somehow doubt the long term outcome for the mother will be happiness and health.

Grand so, seems we have a line of willing adoptive parents here on this thread.
That baby will be discharged from hospital in around 5 months' time.
It will need round the clock care at home, so one of the adoptive parents needs to quit work and be on-call 24-7.

It will most likely have delayed development and probably need extra help from the same HSE that forced its birth.

In years to come, the child will want to know where it came from. I wouldn't relish telling that story.

Yes, prolifers care a lot about a foetus, once you're born it's someone else's problem.

Oh, and the mother. She's a life ahead of her coming to terms with the fact that she was raped, forced to gestate a baby she did not want, forced to give birth to it.
She has to process the emotional reality that she didn't want that baby.

Have any of you ANY idea how that feels to a woman? To know you didn't want your child, and perhaps still don't want them? To live with that?

I'm horrified at this story.

RobertKK

miss no stars wrote: »

What if she subsequently commits suicide? Forcefully hydrating her, coercing her into having a c-section, knowing that there's a child in the world that she carried because of her attack, watching babies as they go by (and later children) wondering if that is THE one.

I'm sorry but right was not done here.

There seems to be substantial confusion about the exact details but it sure as hell is not looking like a win-win scenario.

A child or abortion doesn't change a fact a life was created, in one case you have a living life, in the other case you have a life that you chose to end. An abortion is hardly the end as it doesn't undo the rape, and I don't believe an abortion is something one forgets about.

An abortion is not a treatment for a mental health problem.

krankykitty

miss no stars wrote: »

I somehow doubt the long term outcome for the mother will be happiness and health.

Nor for the baby. The issues you might face as a "normal" adoptee are sometimes too much for some people . put yourself in their shoes if they ever find out where they came from attitudes like this just show a lack of empathy from the anti choice side. Once there's a living baby we're OK jack

LiveIsLife

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

That's correct.
It's a foetus until it is born at which point it becomes a child.

green_screen wrote: »

So does a foetus. While it's in the uterus, it's a foetus, medically speaking. Calling it a baby, when it's not, is emotional bollocks thrown about by militant pro-lifers.

So if you support killing the foetus, do you also support killing it a few minutes later when it has been born?

RobertKK

Deleted User wrote: »

Grand so, seems we have a line of willing adoptive parents here on this thread.
That baby will be discharged from hospital in around 5 months' time.
It will need round the clock care at home, so one of the adoptive parents needs to quit work and be on-call 24-7.

It will most likely have delayed development and probably need extra help from the same HSE that forced its birth.

In years to come, the child will want to know where it came from. I wouldn't relish telling that story.

Yes, prolifers care a lot about a foetus, once you're born it's someone else's problem.

Oh, and the mother. She's a life ahead of her coming to terms with the fact that she was raped, forced to gestate a baby she did not want, forced to give birth to it.
She has to process the emotional reality that she didn't want that baby.

Have any of you ANY idea how that feels to a woman? To know you didn't want your child, and perhaps still don't want them? To live with that?

I'm horrified at this story.

Later in life, it will happy it was given the chance of life.

You know Obama voted for unborn babies born alive from abortions to be given no treatment and to be left to die.
There is video of his presidential election campaign where people who had survived abortions mounted a protest at one of his rallies.
All they got was boos.

The problem is not the people who want to give life to this person, in later life it will be the people who wanted this person dead.

Phoebas

Deleted User wrote: »

Grand so, seems we have a line of willing adoptive parents here on this thread.
That baby will be discharged from hospital in around 5 months' time.
It will need round the clock care at home, so one of the adoptive parents needs to quit work and be on-call 24-7.

It will most likely have delayed development and probably need extra help from the same HSE that forced its birth.

In years to come, the child will want to know where it came from. I wouldn't relish telling that story.

There is huge demand in Ireland for children to adopt so I doubt there will be a problem finding a home for the child.

He/she may need additional help from the HSE stemming from the early delivery, but I doubt anyone would begrudge the resources.