woman refused abortion - Mod Note in first post.

candy-gal1

P_1 wrote: »

In my eyes a pregnancy is a massive undertaking for a woman to make. Don't do it right and there is the potential for the child to suffer a miserable life with health complications and the like. If a woman isn't committed to undertake the pregnancy and all that that entails then personally I think it is for the best that she doesn't.

Now obviously there's a cut off point before this decision has to be made, but at the early stages of pregnancy I'd view an abortion in the same light as I'd view wearing a condom or taking the morning after pill. Obviously some folk will disagree with this but that's my take on the matter.

+1 there, I have to say!

Getting pregnant happens as a mistake through many many reasons, If you are not ready physically/mentally or just in that stage of your life then I dont see why you would have to or be forced to keep it!

Once you stay within the 24week mark and you go about the whole process safely for yourself then I dont see a problem

Calina

myshirt wrote: »

We've done the referendums. Ireland does not support abortion.

The referendum was done in 1983. AFAIK, not one single woman capable of bearing a baby today got to vote in that.

ProfessorPlum

myshirt wrote: »

We've done the referendums. Ireland does not support abortion.

I believe that was in 1983. Times change.

You can be sure that what people don't support is cases like this, cases like Savita's, cases where women have to travel abroad to abort their much wanted baby who has a fatal foetal defect, rather than being able to have the procedure here surrounded by their family and close network of support.

There may not *yet* be enough support for early term abortion 'on demand' (is there a better term), but it is immoral what we are forcing some women in this country to endure.

myshirt

SW wrote: »

when? In what year was there a referendum to allow for abortion?

Do you know how constitutional law operates? If you are looking for a simple 'abortion, yay or nay', it doesn't work like that.

The Constitution would fit in your arse pocket. The constitutional law book wouldnt fit in your backpack.

Ireland does not support abortion.

Molester Stallone II

padd b1975 wrote: »

The thread is about a rape victim!!

Looks like every request will have to be qualified from now on....

No, the thread is about a woman who pleaded for an abortion and even though was found to be suicidal, was denied her right under the law.
That should qualify it for you clearly enough

B0jangles

myshirt wrote: »

Ireland does not support abortion.

Wrong:



http://www.redcresearch.ie/news/support-for-fine-gael-continues-to-decline

Phoebas

NuMarvel wrote: »

I don't see how that's a reasonable interpretation of my post, or any of the facts as reported in the Sunday Times. There's nothing in any of the media reports to indicate that the woman made more than one application.



Exactly. The woman herself is asserting it and the ST are reporting that. I hope this helps you understand how journalism works.

There is:

The ST reported that she applied for an abortion on the grounds of rape.

Sunday Times wrote:

She discovered she was expecting about eight weeks into the pregnancy, and immediately sought an abortion because she had been the victim of a traumatic rape.

We know that she was later granted a termination on other ground (suicidal ideation), so it does appear that there may have been two applications for an abortion, one of them on grounds of rape, which would have been denied and one on the grounds of suicide ideation.

myshirt

Calina wrote: »

The referendum was done in 1983. AFAIK, not one single woman capable of bearing a baby today got to vote in that.

Some great bits of legislation and fine principles of law even predate that. That's how legal systems evolve.

I do agree we need to bring it up to date, but we need to build on it, not go into reverse.

hotmail.com

myshirt wrote: »

Do you know how constitutional law operates? If you are looking for a simple 'abortion, yay or nay', it doesn't work like that.

The Constitution would fit in your arse pocket. The constitutional law book wouldnt fit in your backpack.

Ireland does not support abortion.

Between 4 and 5 thousand Irish women go to the UK every year to have an abortion. So there is considerable support for abortion in Ireland.

Phoebas

Molester Stallone II wrote: »

No, the thread is about a woman who pleaded for an abortion and even though was found to be suicidal, was denied her right under the law.

I thought that misconception was cleared up hours ago. There isn't an automatic right to an abortion on grounds of suicide ideation.

You could argue that the law is a bad one, but asserting that she was denied her right under the law is jumping the gun a bit.

Calina

myshirt wrote: »

Some great bits of legislation and fine principles of law even predate that. That's how legal systems evolve.

I do agree we need to bring it up to date, but we need to build on it, not go into reverse.

The legislation in question dating from the 19th century was repealed with last year's legislation and is no longer valid.

CroatoanCat

Phoebas is correct that we don't have all the facts, and this poor woman was not entitled to an abortion at eight weeks gestation unless she was deemed to be suicidal. This is the reality of the abhorrent abortion laws in this country. As lazygal has pointed out, under the law of this land, every pregnant woman in this country, no matter the circumstances of conception and/or the viability of the foetus and/or threat to the woman's health, must continue her pregnancy - there is no option to end it within this jurisdiction. If a threat to her life (as opposed to her health) is one of suicide rather than a physical cause, she must be assessed by up to six (or is it seven?) health professionals to determine whether the threat is real or all in her head.

As Phoebas has emphasised, we do not know all the facts of the case. If this young woman presented on the cusp of viability (which is not defined in the legislation, as far as I know, but I understand is 22/23 weeks plus), then under the law of the land, as enacted in the 2013 Act, the obstetrician really had no choice other than to opt for delivery (termination of pregnancy) rather than termination of the foetus. This was always going to be the case, notwithstanding the scaremongering of those on the anti-choice side - Jim Walsh with his winsome poem of the doomed foetus et al - would have us believe. The constitutional protection of the unborn demands that this be the case. There was never any chance that late second tremester or third tremester abortions would be countenanced in this country.

As Phoebas rightly pointed out, if this woman presented at eight weeks gestation and did not make her case for an abortion on the basis of being suicidal, or was adjudged not to be suicidal, then she had no right to an abortion. As pro-choice people have been arguing all along, women with resources in this situation will take the hard and lonely road to the UK to terminate their pregnancies. It is disgraceful that they must, but they can at least pursue that option, thereby perpetuating the fallacy that Ireland is an abortion-free country. Women without resources - well, they're f%cked, basically. Asylum seekers, with no option to leave the country, are the most f%cked of all. It's essentially gestate and birth or..... well, gestate and birth. Abominable situation.

The most disturbing scenario of all, of course, is that this woman presented at eight weeks gestation in a suicidal state and was left dangling until such time as the foetus was viable and could be delivered rather than aborted. We do not know whether this was the case; it's merely speculation at this point. To be honest, I cannot even comprehend that possibility at this moment, because the mere suggestion of it fills me with rage.

Essentially, the law passed last year leaves Ireland with one of the most restrictive abortion regimes in the world. Until such time as the constitutional protection for the unborn - giving foetuses equal rights with the women gestating them - is repealed, there will be no change in this regard. While women with adequate resources can travel to the UK to avail of the services that should be available to them at home, those without are effectively obliged to put up and shut up (or risk imprisonment by attempting to procure abortion by some other means). Women and girls who cannot leave the country because of their residency status and wish to obtain an abortion are effectively obliged to carry their pregnancy through to fruition. This country sickens me sometimes. The only prospect of change is a concerted campaign to repeal the eighth amendment, but I am not hopeful that will happen any time soon. My thoughts are with this poor young woman at this time of unimaginable trauma and pain .

ProfessorPlum

myshirt wrote: »

Some great bits of legislation and fine principles of law even predate that. That's how legal systems evolve.

I do agree we need to bring it up to date, but we need to build on it, not go into reverse.

I think we need to amend the constitution and legislate according to the will of the people, don't you?

strandroad

Phoebas wrote: »

There is:

The ST reported that she applied for an abortion on the grounds of rape.


We know that she was later granted a termination on other ground (suicidal ideation), so it does appear that there may have been two applications for an abortion, one of them on grounds of rape, which would have been denied and one on the grounds of suicide ideation.

It says that she had suicidal thoughts in the next paragraph, you're well into conspiracy theory territory here.

padd b1975

Molester Stallone II wrote: »

No, the thread is about a woman who pleaded for an abortion and even though was found to be suicidal, was denied her right under the law.
That should qualify it for you clearly enough

So she wasn't raped and the rape had no influence on her developing suicidal thoughts?

With ya now....

Molester Stallone II

Phoebas wrote: »

I thought that misconception was cleared up hours ago. There isn't an automatic right to an abortion on grounds of suicide ideation.

You could argue that the law is a bad one, but asserting that she was denied her right under the law is jumping the gun a bit.

No, unfortunately we are not dealing with misconceptions, we are dealing with certain elements trying to twist & distort the truth for their own ends. Even the national women's council of ireland has deemed it barbaric

Molester Stallone II

padd b1975 wrote: »

So she wasn't raped and the rape had no influence on her developing suicidal thoughts?

With ya now....

So you agree her right under the law was denied her? Good man, glad you finally see sense

Phoebas

mhge wrote: »

It says that she had suicidal thoughts in the next paragraph, you're well into conspiracy theory territory here.

But that was 'months later' - hence the possibility of two applications.

The Corinthian

myshirt wrote: »

It is a consumer issue you know.

There was I thinking it was a human rights issue, or even a medical or health one.

This country's approach is do what you want, but not on our doorstep. No arm of the state has will touch this issue with a barge pole in a meaningful way.

No argument there; regardless of what your position on abortion is, we implemented a classic Irish solution to an Irish problem.

Thing is, even were Ireland to legalize abortion in a manner simelar to the rest of Europe, it still would not keep the malcontents in this thread happy. It would still be legal only up to a certain number of weeks, or might not be - gods forbid - paid for by the state. This discussion is ultimately not about whether abortion is available in Ireland, but whether free and on-demand abortion is available in Ireland.

And I don't know about you, but I'd imagine quite a few, even pro-choice people might have objections to paying for someone else's choice to have an abortion because "it's not the right time".

Phoebas

Molester Stallone II wrote: »

No, unfortunately we are not dealing with misconceptions, we are dealing with certain elements trying to twist & distort the truth for their own ends. Even the national women's council of ireland has deemed it barbaric

To be clear - are you now saying that there is an automatic right to an abortion for a woman presenting with suicide ideation and that the HSE was breaking the law in not allowing it in this case?

P_1

myshirt wrote: »

We've done the referendums. Ireland does not support abortion.

Back in the 80's at a time when quite a lot of the people who ths issue currently impacts on had no possibly way of voting

ProfessorPlum

Molester Stallone II wrote: »

So you agree her right under the law was denied her? Good man, glad you finally see sense

There really is no evidence that her right was denied at 8 weeks. There's no mention at all of her being suicidal. Look we're stuck with the law that we have. We might not like it, but legally we can't offer an abortion to a woman even though she has been raped. It must be established that there is a substantial risk to her life. In this case, the report only confirms that to be the case months later.

strandroad

Phoebas wrote: »

But that was 'months later' - hence the possibility of two applications.

"Months later" refers to something else, not her suicidal thoughts. Her mental state is described in its own paragraph outside of the timeline paragraph.

myshirt

Calina wrote: »

The legislation in question dating from the 19th century was repealed with last year's legislation and is no longer valid.

I'm talking about in general.

This is the danger of a democracy aswell. Idiots have the same amount of votes as informed people. (not saying you personally are an idiot)

Polls like that one there come with loaded questions; they certainly do show that people support treatment for ill women in pregnancy, they don't show people support treatment that is targeted directly and 100% at nothing else but killing a baby. Sher I would have voted yes on them. I support treatment for ill women, to save their lives, support them through pregnancy etc.

Delirium

P_1 wrote: »

Back in the 80's at a time when quite a lot of the people who ths issue currently impacts on had no possibly way of voting

anyone under the age of 49 today wasn't old enough to vote for it.

NuMarvel

ProfessorPlum wrote: »

It's a technical issue, but an important one because it determines what legal course of action will be allowed.
If a woman requests a termination at 8 weeks, it will be refused unless she is suicidal and there is a risk to her life because of suicidal ideation. Not every rape victim requesting an abortion at 8 weeks is suicidal, and there is nothing written anywhere that says that this woman was suicidal at 8 weeks.

She may not have been suicidal at 8 weeks, but the panel made the decision that she was suicidal and certification was made under Section 9 of the Act. If that wasn't based on the assessment at the time of application, what was it based on? Based on the facts available to us, the only options I can see are that they didn't make a decision after the initial application, or they did but they then later overturned it of their own accord. The former would be a serious breach of professional and legal responsibilities, and there isn't any provision for the latter in the legislation.

myshirt wrote: »

We've done the referendums. Ireland does not support abortion.

Except in cases where the mother's life is at risk, or when women want to travel to other jurisdictions to have one.

padd b1975

Molester Stallone II wrote: »

So you agree her right under the law was denied her? Good man, glad you finally see sense

She's still alive, so threat of suicide wasn't real.

The law worked in this case.

Molester Stallone II

Phoebas wrote: »

To be clear - are you now saying that there is an automatic right to an abortion for a woman presenting with suicide ideation and that the HSE was breaking the law in not allowing it in this case?

Suicide ideation?
Is hunger strike an ideation?

Atlantis50

She would also have been refused an abortion in most other European countries due to the advanced nature of the pregnancy.

We'll soon see idiots on the street protesting that the baby who was delivered by C-section and is doing well should have been killed.

Molester Stallone II

padd b1975 wrote: »

She's still alive, so threat of suicide wasn't real.

The law worked in this case.

And we have a winner! Darwin would be so proud