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woman refused abortion - Mod Note in first post.

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    #752
    Phoebas
    Registered Users Posts: 9,371 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    mhge wrote: »
    "Months later" refers to something else, not her suicidal thoughts. Her mental state is described in its own paragraph outside of the timeline paragraph.
    There is nothing in the ST article that indicates that she expressed suicide ideation when she first presented at 8 weeks.

    We should wait the facts before jumping the gun.


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    #753
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    Basically vote for one of our selection of spinless political parties none of which will even contemplate a referendum to consult modern Ireland and do not expect any rights in this regard.

    If you vote FF, FG, Labour and probably SF just make sure that if you're female or have any female relatives or a wife that you keep a few grand handy just in case you ever get into a situation where they would force you to carry a pregnancy to term in dire circumstances.

    I know middle aged women who have had to go to the UK because they got pregnant when they had serious heart problems etc and would have had very serious possibilities of dying.

    They didn't even consult a obs gyn here out of fear of kicking off some kind of weird legal issues.

    So they ended up in the UK having fairly serious treatment then coming back providing no info to GP or cardiology etc etc and having no follow up care.

    If you're in state care, for example an asylum seeker in direct provision you would probably have to apply for asylum from Ireland in a less insane country I guess.


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    #754
    Calina
    Registered Users Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Calina


    Atlantis50 wrote: »
    She would also have been refused an abortion in most other European countries due to the advanced nature of the pregnancy.

    She requested an abortion at 8 weeks according to the SundayTimes. The truth is in most other European countries, she would probably have gotten one then.


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    #755
    strandroad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,676 ✭✭✭strandroad


    Atlantis50 wrote: »
    She would also have been refused an abortion in most other European countries due to the advanced nature of the pregnancy.

    No at 8 weeks she wouldn't, she woudn't even be asked for a reason.


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    #756
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,799 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    Atlantis50 wrote: »
    She would also have been refused an abortion in most other European countries due to the advanced nature of the pregnancy.

    We'll soon see idiots on the street protesting that the baby who was delivered by C-section and is doing well should have been killed.

    She was 8 weeks when she requested an abortion. AFAIK she would have been allowed an abortion in most countries when that and her being raped would be factors.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #757
    strandroad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,676 ✭✭✭strandroad


    Phoebas wrote: »
    There is nothing in the ST article that indicates that she expressed suicide ideation when she first presented at 8 weeks.

    We should wait the facts before jumping the gun.

    And there's nothing to say that she didn't but you're happy to assume that while accusing others of not sticking to facts.


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    #758
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    Irish solution:

    Apply for abortion on grounds that meet criteria.
    Hospital gets frightened, much hand wringing occurs.
    Refers to committee which will get back to you within 24 months.


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    #759
    NuMarvel
    Registered Users Posts: 3,279 ✭✭✭NuMarvel


    Phoebas wrote: »
    There is:

    The ST reported that she applied for an abortion on the grounds of rape.


    We know that she was later granted a termination on other ground (suicidal ideation), so it does appear that there may have been two applications for an abortion, one of them on grounds of rape, which would have been denied and one on the grounds of suicide ideation.

    She couldn't have applied for an abortion on the grounds of rape, because there is no provision in the Act to make an application on the grounds of rape. The only possibilities are loss of life due to physical illness, loss of life due to physical illness in an emergency, and loss of life due to suicide.


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    #760
    ProfessorPlum
    Registered Users Posts: 1,812 ✭✭✭ProfessorPlum


    NuMarvel wrote: »
    She may not have been suicidal at 8 weeks, but the panel made the decision that she was suicidal and certification was made under Section 9 of the Act. If that wasn't based on the assessment at the time of application, what was it based on? Based on the facts available to us, the only options I can see are that they didn't make a decision after the initial application, or they did but they then later overturned it of their own accord. The former would be a serious breach of professional and legal responsibilities, and there isn't any provision for the latter in the legislation.



    Except in cases where the mother's life is at risk, or when women want to travel to other jurisdictions to have one.

    Where does it say the was an application at 8 weeks? As far as I can see there was none. She requested an abortion at 8 weeks. That is not the same thing. The assessment would have been made around the time of the application, which from reports seems to have been around the 23 week mark. At that stage she was deemed to 'qualify' and was granted a termination - in the form of a c section. She wanted an abortion and went on hunger strike. This wasn't available to her and she subsequently agreed to a c section. That's my reading of it.

    Molester Stallone II wrote: »
    Suicide ideation?
    Is hunger strike an ideation?
    See above. The hunger strike occurred after she was granted the termination. She already was deemed to be suicidal.


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    #761
    Penny Tration
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,687 ✭✭✭✭Penny Tration


    padd b1975 wrote: »
    She's still alive, so threat of suicide wasn't real.

    The law worked in this case.

    Wow. You really know a lot about mental health.

    I guess doctors who said I was a suicide risk were wrong too, because my attempts never succeeded. I must have imagined being mentally ill.


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    #762
    strandroad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,676 ✭✭✭strandroad


    NuMarvel wrote: »
    She couldn't have applied for an abortion on the grounds of rape, because there is no provision in the Act to make an application on the grounds of rape. The only possibilities are loss of life due to physical illness, loss of life due to physical illness in an emergency, and loss of life due to suicide.

    That's true I suppose. Had her request be filed on the grounds of the rape alone it wouldn't even be processed, on formal grounds.


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    #763
    Kiwi in IE
    Registered Users Posts: 3,063 ✭✭✭Kiwi in IE


    SW wrote: »
    anyone under the age of 49 today wasn't old enough to vote for it.

    And a huge percentage of pro choice people would be under 49!


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    #764
    NuMarvel
    Registered Users Posts: 3,279 ✭✭✭NuMarvel


    padd b1975 wrote: »
    She's still alive, so threat of suicide wasn't real.

    In other words, you're saying the doctors who said she was at risk from suicide were wrong?

    If her life was at risk from cancer instead of suicide, and she was still alive, would you be saying the threat of cancer wasn't real?


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    #765
    P_1
    Registered Users Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭P_1


    SW wrote: »
    anyone under the age of 49 today wasn't old enough to vote for it.

    Which is frankly ridiculous. Why the hell should we be bound by the decision made by a past generation who were effectively brainwashed by a cult.


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    #766
    myshirt
    Registered Users Posts: 5,245 ✭✭✭myshirt


    P_1 wrote: »
    Which is frankly ridiculous. Why the hell should we be bound by the decision made by a past generation who were effectively brainwashed by a cult.

    What the hell are you spoofing about? A cult?


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    #767
    NuMarvel
    Registered Users Posts: 3,279 ✭✭✭NuMarvel


    ProfessorPlum wrote: »
    Where does it say the was an application at 8 weeks? As far as I can see there was none. She requested an abortion at 8 weeks. That is not the same thing. The assessment would have been made around the time of the application, which from reports seems to have been around the 23 week mark. At that stage she was deemed to 'qualify' and was granted a termination - in the form of a c section. She wanted an abortion and went on hunger strike. This wasn't available to her and she subsequently agreed to a c section. That's my reading of it.

    It's certainly possible that she didn't apply at the 8 week mark, but we still have the claim from the legal team that the application she did make wasn't facilitated in a timely manner. Between that and the woman's own reported comments, it seems like there was some time between the application and decision, enough time for her to feel that she was effectively denied an abortion.


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    #768
    Phoebas
    Registered Users Posts: 9,371 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    NuMarvel wrote: »
    She couldn't have applied for an abortion on the grounds of rape, because there is no provision in the Act to make an application on the grounds of rape. The only possibilities are loss of life due to physical illness, loss of life due to physical illness in an emergency, and loss of life due to suicide.
    The ST reported that she did request an abortion on the ground of rape.
    ST wrote:
    She discovered she was expecting about eight weeks into the pregnancy, and immediately sought an abortion because she had been the victim of a traumatic rape.


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    #769
    P_1
    Registered Users Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭P_1


    myshirt wrote: »
    What the hell are you spoofing about? A cult?

    I consider all organised religious bodies to be cults, now quite a lot of people will disagree with me on that but in my eyes if it walks and quacks like a duck then it's pretty much a duck.


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    #770
    gctest50
    Registered Users Posts: 9,605 ✭✭✭gctest50


    so - raped , forcibly impregnated against her will, buried in "procedure", locked up

    bit familiar

    b0uNLkE.jpg


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    #771
    Phoebas
    Registered Users Posts: 9,371 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    gctest50 wrote: »
    so - raped , forcibly impregnated against her will, buried in "procedure", locked up

    bit familiar

    b0uNLkE.jpg
    That's right - bring the Nazi concentration camps into it. That usually helps.


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    #772
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    gctest50 wrote: »
    so - raped , forcibly impregnated against her will, buried in "procedure", locked up

    bit familiar

    b0uNLkE.jpg
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law


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    #773
    Czarcasm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,076 ✭✭✭✭Czarcasm


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    There was I thinking it was a human rights issue, or even a medical or health one.

    No argument there; regardless of what your position on abortion is, we implemented a classic Irish solution to an Irish problem.

    Thing is, even were Ireland to legalize abortion in a manner simelar to the rest of Europe, it still would not keep the malcontents in this thread happy. It would still be legal only up to a certain number of weeks, or might not be - gods forbid - paid for by the state. This discussion is ultimately not about whether abortion is available in Ireland, but whether free and on-demand abortion is available in Ireland.

    I don't know about you, but I'd imagine quite a few, even pro-choice people might have objections to paying for someone else's choice to have an abortion because "it's not the right time".


    I don't know about you either, but if you wanted to talk about the cost to the State of forcing women in the care of the State to give birth against their will, I imagine it's a hell of a lot more costly to the State than assisting them in obtaining an abortion in the earliest stages of the pregnancy.

    Think about it - How much did it cost the HSE to force this woman to give birth, and now that she has done, the child has also been taken into the care of the State. Both the mother and the child will require ongoing medical care, and there is no obligation on the HSE to release the child into the care of this woman, even if she recovers from the ordeal that the father of the child have put her through.

    How much will this one case end up costing the State, as opposed to the cost of having granted her an abortion in the first place, which is what she was asking for?


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    #774
    padd b1975
    Registered Users Posts: 10,769 ✭✭✭✭padd b1975


    NuMarvel wrote: »
    In other words, you're saying the doctors who said she was at risk from suicide were wrong?

    I'm saying that due to the emotional turmoil that she was going through, she may not have known her own mind.


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    #775
    myshirt
    Registered Users Posts: 5,245 ✭✭✭myshirt


    P_1 wrote: »
    I consider all organised religious bodies to be cults, now quite a lot of people will disagree with me on that but in my eyes if it walks and quacks like a duck then it's pretty much a duck.

    That is outrageous.


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    #776
    NuMarvel
    Registered Users Posts: 3,279 ✭✭✭NuMarvel


    padd b1975 wrote: »
    I'm saying that due to the emotional turmoil that she was going through, she may not have known her own mind.

    So you are saying the doctors were wrong. You could have just said that.


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    #777
    padd b1975
    Registered Users Posts: 10,769 ✭✭✭✭padd b1975


    myshirt wrote: »
    That is outrageous.

    Standard keyboard atheist windbagging.


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    #778
    NuMarvel
    Registered Users Posts: 3,279 ✭✭✭NuMarvel


    Phoebas wrote: »
    The ST reported that she did request an abortion on the ground of rape.

    A request is not an application. There are only three grounds to make an application, and there's nothing that suggests she made more than one application.


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    #779
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Czarcasm wrote: »
    I don't know about you either, but if you wanted to talk about the cost to the State of forcing women in the care of the State to give birth against their will, I imagine it's a hell of a lot more costly to the State than assisting them in obtaining an abortion in the earliest stages of the pregnancy.
    Who is forcing anyone to do anything, or are we just going to get hysterical about the topic? "The state won't pay for my abortion, ergo I have no other option but to raise the child myself".
    Think about it - How much did it cost the HSE to force this woman to give birth, and now that she has done, the child has also been taken into the care of the State.
    That's not how the economics of medical care works, I'm afraid. If you want to do a financial analysis, you need to look at the number who would go through with the birth rather than go to the UK or elsewhere and pay, versus the cost of free abortion for all. If you can demonstrate that enough would do that, then I'll be happy to concede the point.


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    #780
    ProfessorPlum
    Registered Users Posts: 1,812 ✭✭✭ProfessorPlum


    NuMarvel wrote: »
    It's certainly possible that she didn't apply at the 8 week mark, but we still have the claim from the legal team that the application she did make wasn't facilitated in a timely manner. Between that and the woman's own reported comments, it seems like there was some time between the application and decision, enough time for her to feel that she was effectively denied an abortion.

    If an application is made at 8 weeks and the decision strung out until viability, heads should roll. If an application is made, say around the 21 week mark, and a decision not made for, say 1-2 weeks, bringing the foetus into the Delma of viability, then it gets a bit more complicated. At 22/23 weeks, there are very much competing rights, and I can see the argument being made that there is an obligation to facilitate the pregnancy to give the foetus an equal chance of life as the mother. I'm not saying that's what happened there, but I think it's not an unreasonable path given the law as it stands. I'm not saying I agree with any of it either, from a moral pov.


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    #781
    gctest50
    Registered Users Posts: 9,605 ✭✭✭gctest50


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

    never heard of that before - have you one for unit 731 ? - its probably a bit closer to it


    AvGt699.jpg


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