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woman refused abortion - Mod Note in first post.

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    #962
    RobertKK
    Registered Users Posts: 33,749 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    PopePalpatine wrote: »
    What crime has the woman committed?

    Gods forbid a female acquaintance of you ever gets pregnant as a result of rape.


    None, but it is made out the unborn had committed some crime and should be killed, when the only criminal is the the rapist.


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    #963
    takamichinoku
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,110 ✭✭✭takamichinoku


    RobertKK wrote: »
    In the past century, humans have killed more than any other century.
    Haven't read the rest off your post yet, but here's something of interest
    http://one-simple-idea.com/WorldPopulation.jpg


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    #964
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    RobertKK wrote: »
    In the past century, humans have killed more than any other century. tens of millions in world wars, tens of millions by communist regimes, millions in other wars, countless with abortion.
    North Korea as a nation exists which the UN described being as bad as a certain German regime.

    There is no reason why we won't have another large war and many millions more die, to think we have progressed is being blind to the reality, the disregard for life from conception to our last breaths has increased.
    It leads to a mindset where some think abortion is a choice and where people have a problem that there are now two lives instead of one, and the fact we have two lives instead of one is seen as being backward.
    Why is it ok to force women to remain pregnant regardless of their wishes?


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    #965
    Mountainsandh
    Registered Users Posts: 6,700 ✭✭✭Mountainsandh


    LiveIsLife wrote: »
    Well if thats the case fair enough.

    Do you have a link to the statistics? Not what I would have thought, I remember reading Russia wants to repeal its abortion laws to help stop its population dropping as close to 1 in 2 pregnancies result in abortion, and at one stage there were 2 abortions for every birth. Russia may be a special case though.
    No links yet, as I said, there is an enormous amount of concern ie writing on the topic on the WHO site. Will read more when I have time and post. Just type Abortion in the search box you'll get an idea.


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    #966
    pq0n1ct4ve8zf5
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,070 ✭✭✭✭pq0n1ct4ve8zf5


    RobertKK wrote: »
    What crime has the unborn committed?

    Most abortions are for family planning reasons, maybe from affairs, a one night stand, stupidity.

    But we only hear arguments about unviable lives, rape victims, teenagers...what wrong has the unborn done in the cases of rape and teenagers that he/she should be killed?

    The arguments about teenagers, unviable pregnancies and rape victims are put forward because they illustrate just how restrictive the laws in Ireland are. In the latter two cases, our laws are restrictive enough to be out of line with even a lot of pro-life individuals in the States, home of bombing abortion clinics and murdering doctors in order to preserve the sanctity of life.

    The unborn hasn't done anything wrong and is not being punished for anything. If you're arguing that you're arguing against non-existent opponents. The argument you need to address, the actual pro-choice position is the balance of rights between foetus/unborn/whatever you want to call it and the woman carrying it.

    It's much easier to toss on about gas chambers and widdle babas though, isn't it?


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    #967
    Czarcasm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,076 ✭✭✭✭Czarcasm


    RobertKK wrote: »
    What crime has the unborn committed?

    Most abortions are for family planning reasons, maybe from affairs, a one night stand, stupidity.

    But we only hear arguments about unviable lives, rape victims, teenagers...what wrong has the unborn done in the cases of rape and teenagers that he/she should be killed?


    By that same rather strange logic, what has the unborn child ever done that their right to life supersedes the will of the pregnant woman who has decided she does not want to give birth?

    In that case, forcing her to give birth against her will is punishing both her and the unborn child you have forced into the world whose life you will have no part in.


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    #968
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users Posts: 11,943 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    RobertKK wrote: »
    None, but it is made out the unborn had committed some crime and should be killed, when the only criminal is the the rapist.

    YOU'RE STILL PUNISHING THE WOMAN! She's being FORCED to stay pregnant AGAINST HER WILL.

    How many times must this be repeated?


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    #969
    RobertKK
    Registered Users Posts: 33,749 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    lazygal wrote: »
    How many unwanted unborn children have you helped after they're born? Should women remain pregnant regardless of her personal circumstances or wishes?

    I don't know how many I have helped.

    They don't have to keep the baby after it is born. I support having good supports for mothers.


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    #970
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    RobertKK wrote: »
    I don't know how many I have helped.

    They don't have to keep the baby after it is born. I support having good supports for mothers.

    Have you helped any? Should child benefit be paid from conception?


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    #971
    RobertKK
    Registered Users Posts: 33,749 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    PopePalpatine wrote: »
    YOU'RE STILL PUNISHING THE WOMAN! She's being FORCED to stay pregnant AGAINST HER WILL.

    How many times must this be repeated?

    It is argued as if an abortion is a walk in the park.

    A human life is at stake, and it is not punishing the woman, two wrongs never made a right.


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    #972
    Calina
    Registered Users Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Calina


    Mountainsandh wrote: »
    No links yet, as I said, there is an enormous amount of concern ie writing on the topic on the WHO site. Will read more when I have time and post. Just type Abortion in the search box you'll get an idea.

    http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_IAW.html

    This is a good place to look.

    Key quote:
    Both the lowest and highest subregional abortion rates are in Europe, where abortion is generally legal under broad grounds. In Western Europe, the rate is 12 per 1,000 women, while in Eastern Europe it is 43. [1] The discrepancy in rates between the two regions reflects relatively low contraceptive use in Eastern Europe, as well as a high degree of reliance on methods with relatively high user failure rates, such as the condom, withdrawal and the rhythm method.


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    #973
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    RobertKK wrote: »
    It is argued as if an abortion is a walk in the park.

    A human life is at stake, and it is not punishing the woman, two wrongs never made a right.

    What are the options for a woman with an unwanted pregnancy?


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    #974
    pq0n1ct4ve8zf5
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,070 ✭✭✭✭pq0n1ct4ve8zf5


    RobertKK wrote: »
    It is argued as if an abortion is a walk in the park.

    As compared to the simple solution of the absolute doddle of carrying an unwanted pregnancy to term and giving up a child for adoption?


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    #975
    RobertKK
    Registered Users Posts: 33,749 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    lazygal wrote: »
    Have you helped any? Should child benefit be paid from conception?

    Yes, via charity.

    Child benefit paid from conception is an interesting idea, maybe payable at birth, given the baby has been alive for upto 9 months or so but the state wouldn't do that given the extra cost.
    It has cut it when it was most needed during the recession.


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    #976
    Czarcasm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,076 ✭✭✭✭Czarcasm


    RobertKK wrote: »

    There is no reason why we won't have another large war and many millions more die, to think we have progressed is being blind to the reality, the disregard for life from conception to our last breaths has increased.
    It leads to a mindset where some think abortion is a choice and where people have a problem that there are now two lives instead of one, and the fact we have two lives instead of one is seen as being backward.


    You're wrong there Robert. Due to medical advances in the last century alone, an unborn child can now be removed from the womb of a woman in the 23rd week of her unwanted pregnancy by caesarean section, and have a better chance of survival outside the womb than it did 100 years ago.


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    #977
    J_E
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,734 ✭✭✭J_E


    RobertKK wrote: »
    It is argued as if an abortion is a walk in the park.

    A human life is at stake, and it is not punishing the woman, two wrongs never made a right.
    How can you know something like that?


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    #978
    RobertKK
    Registered Users Posts: 33,749 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    lazygal wrote: »
    What are the options for a woman with an unwanted pregnancy?

    You are asking lots of questions as if you don't know the answers.

    She can have the baby or she can kill the unborn. One gives the baby a choice in life.

    The problem in this world is people are too concerned with themselves and it is a selfishness that makes people put themselves ahead of others, including life in the womb.

    An unwanted pregnancy is only a disaster if one makes it a disaster. It is like an immature view towards sex given sex can lead to a pregnancy even when contraception is used.


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    #979
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users Posts: 11,943 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    Cydoniac wrote: »
    How can you know something like that?

    I'm more interested in how he can BELIEVE something like that. I'd say if you asked a random selection of women of child-bearing age on the street that 49 out of 50 of them would find forcing a woman to give birth to her rapist's baby barbaric. We had enough barbarism in this country with the iron fist of the Catholic Church, thank you very much.


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    #980
    RobertKK
    Registered Users Posts: 33,749 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    Czarcasm wrote: »
    You're wrong there Robert. Due to medical advances in the last century alone, an unborn child can now be removed from the womb of a woman in the 23rd week of her unwanted pregnancy by caesarean section, and have a better chance of survival outside the womb than it did 100 years ago.

    Yet how many are humans killing after the time period you have given?

    Progress is only progress if we learn something from it.


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    #981
    Corkfeen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,940 ✭✭✭Corkfeen


    RobertKK wrote: »
    In the past century, humans have killed more than any other century. tens of millions in world wars, tens of millions by communist regimes, millions in other wars, countless with abortion.
    North Korea as a nation exists which the UN described being as bad as a certain German regime.

    There is no reason why we won't have another large war and many millions more die, to think we have progressed is being blind to the reality, the disregard for life from conception to our last breaths has increased.
    It leads to a mindset where some think abortion is a choice and where people have a problem that there are now two lives instead of one, and the fact we have two lives instead of one is seen as being backward.

    I would recommend you read a history book, we are in the longest peace time since the Roman empire. There have been many centuries in the world's history where peace was just a small stop gap between war. Our attitude towards violence has turned against it. The murder rate across democratic countries has been on a constant decline.

    For example, the United States had 4.7 murders per 100,000 as of 2011. They tend to have the higher homicide rates in democratic nations.(Ireland is 1.2 and Canada is 1.6) Note how it is at its lowest point since 1970. By your logic, it should have escalated when abortion got legalised in the US. It didn't.

    http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/murder-rates-nationally-and-state#nat1970

    Once again, I have to point out, abortion is not murder. However forcing a person to carry a foetus is far more concerning. People should have bodily autonomy. I have it and you have it, women in Ireland do not.

    Applying your logic, we should be in a nuclear winter by now.....


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    #982
    RobertKK
    Registered Users Posts: 33,749 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    PopePalpatine wrote: »
    I'm more interested in how he can BELIEVE something like that. I'd say if you asked a random selection of women of child-bearing age on the street that 49 out of 50 of them would find forcing a woman to give birth to her rapist's baby barbaric. We had enough barbarism in this country with the iron fist of the Catholic Church, thank you very much.

    Well I gave the example of the C case, and the woman involved was called a liar because what she had to say didn't suit the narrative.


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    #983
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    RobertKK wrote: »
    Well I gave the example of the C case, and the woman involved was called a liar because what she had to say didn't suit the narrative.


    Back using a traumatised woman again, Robert? Very classy.


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    #984
    takamichinoku
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,110 ✭✭✭takamichinoku


    RobertKK wrote: »
    She can have the baby or she can kill the unborn. One gives the baby a choice in life.
    [...]
    An unwanted pregnancy is only a disaster if one makes it a disaster.
    Some people born into awful circumstances don't have that much choice in life.

    Pretty sure one can be a disaster without it being the mother's fault whatsoever... can be life changing in an extremely negative sense for the mother, for sure. A positive attitude can only do so much for a person.



    RE: someone earlier saying child benefit from conception
    can you imagine the kind of attacks people would be making on the welfare system from all sides if child benefit from conception was a thing?

    "it's like a short term loan they don't have to pay back, straight from my taxes! Getting pregnant every May to fund a holiday in Spain the next month. ...and just who do you think winds up paying for those kids once there around too?!"


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    #985
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users Posts: 11,943 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    RobertKK wrote: »
    Yet how many are humans killing after the time period you have given?

    Progress is only progress if we learn something from it.

    How many of those abortions after 23 weeks were due to a risk to the woman's health and/or life? How many of them were due to fatal foetal abnormalities?

    To hell with it, I'll even hand out a link: http://rhrealitycheck.org/article/2009/06/02/lateterm-abortions-facts-stories-and-ways-help/


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    #986
    RobertKK
    Registered Users Posts: 33,749 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    Corkfeen wrote: »
    I would recommend you read a history book, we are in the longest peace time since the Roman empire. There have been many centuries in the world's history where peace was just a small stop gap between war. Our attitude towards violence has turned against it. The murder rate across democratic countries has been on a constant decline.

    For example, the United States had 4.7 murders per 100,000 as of 2011. They tend to have the higher homicide rates in democratic nations.(Ireland is 1.2 and Canada is 1.6) Note how it is at its lowest point since 1970. By your logic, it should have escalated when abortion got legalised in the US. It didn't.

    http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/murder-rates-nationally-and-state#nat1970

    Once again, I have to point out, abortion is not murder.

    We do not have peace time, there are forty something wars going on around the world. We can be myopic and only see peace when we have turmoil.
    The 'peaceful' west invaded Iraq and it opened up a Pandora's box. Millions of US troops have passed through Ireland on the way to Iraq and Afghanistan.
    This is not peace time.


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    #987
    RobertKK
    Registered Users Posts: 33,749 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    PopePalpatine wrote: »
    How many of those abortions after 23 weeks were due to a risk to the woman's health and/or life? How many of them were due to fatal foetal abnormalities?

    To hell with it, I'll even hand out a link: http://rhrealitycheck.org/article/2009/06/02/lateterm-abortions-facts-stories-and-ways-help/

    I don't know, Dr Gosnell didn't seem to care.


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    #988
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    RobertKK wrote: »
    I don't know, Dr Gosnell didn't seem to care.


    'Dr Gosnell' is relevant to this discussion how?


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    #989
    RobertKK
    Registered Users Posts: 33,749 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    Nodin wrote: »
    Back using a traumatised woman again, Robert? Very classy.

    Well was it classy to call her a liar which is what you did?

    At least I believe her story.


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    #990
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    RobertKK wrote: »
    Well was it classy to call her a liar which is what you did?

    At least I believe her story.

    Yeah, you believe a traumatised woman, conveniently ignoring all other established facts.

    Tell me, if she was misinformed as to the procedure, and the state lied, why hasn't she been able to bring a court case?


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    #991
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users Posts: 11,943 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    Nodin wrote: »
    'Dr Gosnell' is relevant to this discussion how?

    Because he's AN EVIL ABORTIONIST!!1!111!! He represents obstetrics in the same way paedo-protecting Cardinal Brady represents lay Catholics.


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