woman refused abortion - Mod Note in first post.

Penn

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

The child shouldn't have to suffer because of what it's father did.

The mother shouldn't have to suffer for it either, and being forced to carry and give birth to the child of the man who raped her is an incredibly cruel punishment no woman should ever have to endure against their wishes.

If the abortion happens in the first few months of pregnancy (up to 18-20 weeks I believe), then there is no suffering on behalf of the foetus because there is no brain function. In much the same way as people who are considered brain-dead and taken off life-support aren't being murdered.

myshirt

lazygal wrote: »

Seriously? A raped suicidal pregnant woman was put through a c section after a hunger strike and a Garth Brooks joke is appropriate? Grow up.

It's not a joke!

The Garth Brooks thread went on and on, and I'm saying this may also progress in a similar fashion!

Please don't attack me personally on thread! The fact that abortionists were targeting this baby's life is already distressing enough!

Akrasia

NuMarvel wrote: »

From reading the Irish Times article, it seems that, when taken in isolation, the Act works as it is intended. There doesn't seem to be any undue delay in her application being assessed, and the panel were able to make a determination that her life was at risk from suicide. And as an aside, their decision to deliver early discredits the Pro Life Campaign's claims that the legislation allows abortion up to 9 months. The concern I'd have on this aspect is that it seems she was told she couldn't have an abortion before the panel convened, but that may be just the way the article is worded.

The chilling effect is there. When the woman first asked for a termination she could have been told that abortion is illegal in Ireland. The people in the maternity and social services are not trained to to recognise the signs of a woman who may be feeling suicidal. Even experienced psychiatrists and psychologists can not always read the mental state of someone unless they openly discuss it.

One thing we all know about suicide is that people very often hide the fact that they are suicidal until it is too late. A suicidal person may not be mentally capable of going through the beaurocratic process of requesting an assessment under this law. The very thought of having to do something as drawn out and beaurocratic as this could push people over the edge.

lazygal

myshirt wrote: »

It's not a joke!

The Garth Brooks thread went on and on, and I'm saying this may also progress in a similar fashion!

Please don't attack me personally on thread! The fact that abortionists were targeting this baby's life is already distressing enough!

Oh this is just pathetic. Abortionists, really?

Delirium

myshirt wrote: »

It's not a joke!

The Garth Brooks thread went on and on, and I'm saying this may also progress in a similar fashion!

Please don't attack me personally on thread! The fact that abortionists were targeting this baby's life is already distressing enough!

That isn't fact. That's just hyperbole on your behalf. This is a difficult enough discussion without needless sensationalism.

lazygal

Akrasia wrote: »

The chilling effect is there. When the woman first asked for a termination she could have been told that abortion is illegal in Ireland. The people in the maternity and social services are not trained to to recognise the signs of a woman who may be feeling suicidal. Even experienced psychiatrists and psychologists can not always read the mental state of someone unless they openly discuss it.

One thing we all know about suicide is that people very often hide the fact that they are suicidal until it is too late. A suicidal person may not be mentally capable of going through the beaurocratic process of requesting an assessment under this law. The very thought of having to do something as drawn out and beaurocratic as this could push people over the edge.

Not to mention that there may have been serious language barriers. Also, suppose an interpreter was opposed to abortion and chose to put an additional barrier in place when communicating the woman's case to medical professionals, is there any way of assessing how accurate translation in such cases can be?

Chattastrophe!

myshirt wrote: »

It's not a joke!

The Garth Brooks thread went on and on, and I'm saying this may also progress in a similar fashion!

Please don't attack me personally on thread! The fact that abortionists were targeting this baby's life is already distressing enough!

What is an abortionist? And how were they targetting any baby's life?

D

Hi,
Does anyone have a link to a comprehensive, objective report of what happened?
I mean news report or something else of that sort that can give the full details.
I ask because initially there seems to be a lot of misinformation, confusion, vagueness about what happened, and I do not want to read through the 50 pages or so of this thread.

zl1whqvjs75cdy

Abortionists. A new satanic cult that murder babies for the craic and force abortion on all and sundry.

Penn

myshirt wrote: »

The fact that abortionists were targeting this baby's life is already distressing enough!

In what way were abortionists targeting this baby's life?

No matter what side of the fence any of us are on, it should be up to one person, and one person only; the mother. If she did not want the baby and did not want to carry it to full term and give birth to it, she should not be forced to, especially (but not exclusively because) under the circumstances of how the child was conceived.

Nobody "targets babies lives". People only support the choice of the women. If this woman had wanted to keep the baby, nobody would be campaigning for her to have an abortion. That's equally as cruel as forcing her to keep it when she doesn't want it.

Chattastrophe!

D wrote: »

Hi,
Does anyone have a link to a comprehensive, objective report of what happened?
I mean news report or something else of that sort that can give the full details.
I ask because initially there seems to be a lot of misinformation, confusion, vagueness about what happened, and I do not want to read through the 50 pages or so of this thread.

Well I could give you the article from an Irish paper with a pro-choice skew, or I could give you the article from a different Irish paper with a pro-life skew.

Which would you rather? Both provide very different "facts" of the case.

LOL at the idea of any article being free from confusion and vagueness etc. Newspaper editors generally have their own agendas.

Calina

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

But she wasn't suicidal, she was evaluated and found not to be in danger of hurting herself.

This is incorrect. She was found by the two consultant psychiatrists to be suicidal and she subsequently went on hunger strike. I'm not sure how you can define that as "not suicidal" unless you require her to be dead for proof.

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

It must have been a horrible situation to be in, to be pregnant with a rapists' baby. But if the child was viable and the mother's life was in no danger than there was no reason for a termination.

She requested an abortion from 8 weeks. I think that from the point of view of her asking for an abortion - regardless of the reason - does not mean you can say there was no reason. She was subsequently suicidal per medical professionals. What matters is what happened between her asking for an abortion at 8 weeks and not appearing to get to a S9 process until about 12 to 14 weeks later.

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

The child shouldn't have to suffer because of what it's father did.

The child was not born at that stage.

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I'm all for women having the choice but it does need to be regulated as it was here.

This means you're not all for women having the choice. You're open to them having limited choice and would prefer to impose your choice on them.

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

We can't just start handing out abortions willy nilly like it's just another form of contraception.

The issue in this country is we don't hand out contraception willy nilly. MAP aside, which is technically available without a prescription but only for the last couple of years, you require doctor's consultations to get a contraceptive pill and depending on where you are, that may not necessarily be straight forward, particularly if you're young and inexperienced and lacking in confidence, and, regardless of requirements for confidentiality, in a small town. It's very hard to trust in anonymity in Ireland to be frank. I'm aware that there are professional requirements in terms of confidentiality but that doesn't change the fact that young women may not necessarily trust in them.

They also cost money up front which people don't always have. This case follows on from a rape case so clearly any comments along the lines of abstention would be irrelevant.

Akrasia

myshirt wrote: »

It's not a joke!

The Garth Brooks thread went on and on, and I'm saying this may also progress in a similar fashion!

Please don't attack me personally on thread! The fact that abortionists were targeting this baby's life is already distressing enough!

'abortionists'?

Nobody is pro abortion. Nobody wants babies to die. If the abortion services were humane in Ireland, this woman could have had a termination before there was a baby. it would have prevented the problem of bringing someone into the world who has nobody to care for him/her. So Called 'Pro-life' don't care about the quality of life of children once they're born, as long as every zygote gets carried to term.

Obviously the best outcome for the baby is that he/she develops normally and gets placed in a loving family environment, but this is life and the best outcome rarely happens.

There are scenarios where the outcomes are awful that pro life extremists would still prefer to the pro-choice option of an early term abortion.

Pro-life campaigners would prefer if the baby was born and died due to complications associated with pre-term delivery. Sadly, pro-life ideology would consider this a better outcome than if a blastocyst was terminated before it became anything even close to what we consider to be a human child.

efb

Here's a link with references v legal

http://humanrights.ie/constitution-of-ireland/suicide-and-the-protection-of-life-in-pregnancy-act-2013/

Berserker

Akrasia wrote: »

The people in the maternity and social services are not trained to to recognise the signs of a woman who may be feeling suicidal.

Maternity and social services are trained to recognise when a person is possibly prone to suicide. On recognising those signs, they refer the case to someone with the appropriate skills to deal with the case and evaluate the individual properly. If such a professional felt that there was even the slightest chance that the patient was suicidal, they would refer the case. To suggest that the maternity and social services are not capable of identifying someone who is suicidal is inaccurate.

D wrote: »

Hi,
Does anyone have a link to a comprehensive, objective report of what happened?

No, that data would not be made available to the public. Any of the "facts" that you read are merely opinions tailored to support the pro-life or pro-choice agendas.

If I had to guess, an educated guess, I suspect that the lady requested an abortion, given her circumstances, she was evaluated and it was deemed that suicide was not a risk. The medical staff worked within the bounds of the law of the land and decided that a c-section was the best action to take under the circumstances.

Mountainsandh

Berserker wrote: »

Maternity and social services are trained to recognise when a person is possibly prone to suicide. On recognising those signs, they refer the case to someone with the appropriate skills to deal with the case and evaluate the individual properly. If such a professional felt that there was even the slightest chance that the patient was suicidal, they would refer the case. To suggest that the maternity and social services are not capable of identifying someone who is suicidal is inaccurates.

Well of course in my job too we have policies and mission statements, and training days, and procedures, and line of action...

In theory, of course maternity and social services are trained to respond appropriately. Thing is, this situation had time to escalate from the first contact this lady had with "authorities" to a time when the foetus was viable outside the womb (albeit just about).

She was assessed as suicidal by the panel weeks later, so there was a failure to assess properly from the first day she presented it seems.

Berserker

Mountainsandh wrote: »

Well of course in my job too we have policies and mission statements, and training days, and procedures, and line of action...

In theory, of course maternity and social services are trained to respond appropriately. Thing is, this situation had time to escalate from the first contact this lady had with "authorities" to a time when the foetus was viable outside the womb (albeit just about).

She was assessed as suicidal by the panel weeks later, so there was a failure to assess properly from the first day she presented it seems.

Did you work with the patient yourself? If you did not then this is merely conjecture. I know well, believe me, that cases falls through the administrative cracks but given the sensitivity of this issue, I would be surprised if this case was not given "P1" priority. I just get the feeling that we are not getting the full picture from the media reports, which is no surprise given that fact that individual cases would not be discussed in the media.

Calina

Ireland has an issue in that there is a view that some women deserve an abortion and some women do not.

The problem is, what constitutes deserving and undeserving varies from one person to another.

SpaceTime

lazygal wrote: »

Not to mention that there may have been serious language barriers. Also, suppose an interpreter was opposed to abortion and chose to put an additional barrier in place when communicating the woman's case to medical professionals, is there any way of assessing how accurate translation in such cases can be?

You'd have language barriers and an assumption that you were in a Western European country too. Ireland looks and sounds like one until you encounter its abortion laws where it's basically in line with parts of Africa and Latin America.

I'd say there was a strong possibility that she'd no idea what she was dealing with in terms of the kinds of insane processes we have evolved for this kind of thing.

Berserker

Calina wrote: »

Ireland has an issue in that there is a view that some women deserve an abortion and some women do not.

The problem is, what constitutes deserving and undeserving varies from one person to another.

Wrong, the law in relation to the grounds for abortion are very clear from a medical perspective.

Calina

Berserker wrote: »

Wrong, the law in relation to the grounds for abortion are very clear from a medical perspective.

I spoke about people, not the law. Maybe you should read what I did write.

Kiwi in IE

Calina wrote: »

Ireland has an issue in that there is a view that some women deserve an abortion and some women do not.

The problem is, what constitutes deserving and undeserving varies from one person to another.

Simple! Those who know their rights, the law and have the resources and ability to travel to England are deserving, while those who are poor, vulnerable, lacking support and very young are not!

It matters not what peoples differing opinions are on the matter. The above is the way it is in Ireland.

Mountainsandh

Berserker wrote: »

Did you work with the patient yourself? If you did not then this is merely conjecture. I know well, believe me, that cases falls through the administrative cracks but given the sensitivity of this issue, I would be surprised if this case was not given "P1" priority. I just get the feeling that we are not getting the full picture from the media reports, which is no surprise given that fact that individual cases would not be discussed in the media.

But the simple obvious fact that we know is that this lady went on hunger strike to harm herself and foetus after the 20 weeks had elapsed.

In Ireland, there was a woman, who made contact with authorities for help at some earlier stage, and around 20 weeks gestation decided that the best course of action for herself was to stop eating and drinking.

Was the lady dealt with appropriately up to the time she stopped eating and drinking ?

whitelight

seems to me that the powers that be must have delayed this womans case on purpose,she sought help at eight weeks pregnant.they just waited it out and then took the baby when they could.now whats the result ,a woman tramatised and an unwanted baby struggling to survive.great out come.her human rights counted for nothing in this country.the world is looking at ireland again as a backward socitey.the government need to get their finger out and legislate properly on this issue for once and for all.the suicide aspect should never been brought into it.just another way to twist and turn their way out of making a clear decision.we also have all this information on this ladies situation in the puplic eye ,she didnt even get her privicy.

Berserker

Calina wrote: »

I spoke about people, not the law. Maybe you should read what I did write.

And I was talking from a medical and legal perspective. The personal opinion aspect doesn't really come into play in a professional capacity.

Crann na Beatha

This post has been deleted.

lazygal

SpaceTime wrote: »

You'd have language barriers and an assumption that you were in a Western European country too. Ireland looks and sounds like one until you encounter its abortion laws where it's basically in line with parts of Africa and Latin America.

I'd say there was a strong possibility that she'd no idea what she was dealing with in terms of the kinds of insane processes we have evolved for this kind of thing.

I can't imagine what its like. You've been raped, then you arrive in a country where perhaps you don't speak the language. You're undergoing a medical examination and then you find out you're pregnant because of the rape. You don't want to be pregnant, you can't travel outside the jurisdiction because your papers aren't allowing you to do so and furthermore why on earth would a woman have to get on a plane with all of the expense and travel to another country to avail of a normal medical procedure. You've no money anyway, you arrived in Ireland with the clothes on your back. So you look for an abortion. You don't hear anything back. Maybe the morning sickness is kicking in. Maybe you can't keep any food down because of it and you're getting tired and weak. You're stressed out and in no shape for a battle. First trimester tiredness is exhausting. I barely made it through work every day.

You go back to the doctor, who gets onto The Powers that Be and time ticks on and maybe you're moved to another asylum centre or you're finding it difficult to get accommodation in a crazy rental market so you've no permanent address. Time is ticking on, all of a sudden you're 16 weeks pregnant and you're still as sick as ever and you're feeling suicidal because of the pregnancy as a result of rape. You're not hearing anything back and its hard to know where to go because you're not that familiar with the rules, maybe the state will send you back to your home country if you're in the country illegally so you don't want to kick up a fuss.

So you go back, with a friend who tries to translate things and is trying to get the doctor to understand what you want and how you're feeling and then the services finally come around to convening a panel, and then you're stuck because your friend can't come to translate things for you so there's another delay while they find someone else to translate things but that's a slow process and suddenly you're 20 weeks gone.

And then there's another delay because of who knows why and you're 22 weeks pregnant and an obstetrician decides that even though the psychiatrists said you're suicidal you should really stay pregnant another few weeks. You're so stressed and suicidal you take back the only control you have, what you eat and drink, but even then you don't have any control, you've been told the doctors are going to court.

At this stage you're completely broken. You're sick, tired, emotionally wrung out, far from home, engaging with people who don't speak your language and you've been raped. When your only option is presented to you, you agree to the c section because anything has to be better than what you've been through.

I am not saying this is what happened. But it could happen to any woman in Ireland who cannot travel to another country to terminate a pregnancy.

SpaceTime

Phoenix wrote: »

was she dealt with in her home country firstly before she claimed asylum here or was she under the care of this country solely?

If she was seeking asylum, it's hardly likely that the place she was coming from was a bastion of caring medical facilities and social support services now is it ?

DeadHand

Abortion... The Irish solution: "Arrah, we'll a kinda half have it".

Meanwhile, Irish women continue to fly to London in their droves as we export that which our leaders are too cowardly to deal with conclusively to the English. This sanctimonious, hypocritical nonsense from a country with a shameful record in the official treatment of children that have been born.

Stories like this one and far worse will continue to appear until we mature as a nation and legalise abortion.

tritium

So

We have another AH abortion thread where no-one actually knows all the facts. Plenty of conjecture, lots if hypotheticals by both sides and no real interest in knowing the facts unless they support their position. We have;

A young lady, likely a foreign national who was pregnant. This may or may not be as the result of a rape. She may or may not have asked for an abortion at 8 weeks. She may or may not have been suicidal at that point. In another version if this story she wasn't even aware if the pregnancy at 8 weeks, again this may or may not be correct. She was assessed by the HSE and at a much later point she (again?) Looked for a termination, this instance apparently was on grounds of suicidality. She was then given a termination of pregnancy (but not an abortion) which would appear to be in line with current legislation.

Did I miss anything?

Now depending on how you take all the may or may nots I'm pretty sure any one can get outraged regardless if their position. But let's not pretend we're outraged for the woman whose circumstances frankly we don't yet fully know. Or that were outraged at the HSE or the injustice of the law here, because again we don't have enough facts for that. The truth is,regardless of which camp you sit in, we're outraged that the rules don't work the way we think they should. Because we want a complex situation to be black and white and we think our position is the only logical or fair one, even though that belief is only based on our own arrogance.