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woman refused abortion - Mod Note in first post.

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    #1322
    shruikan2553
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,113 ✭✭✭shruikan2553


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    A defenceless child, that has done nothing wrong, also has rights

    You may be surprised to hear this as it is often ignored by pro life people but there is a woman with rights involved too.


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    #1323
    DeadHand
    Registered Users Posts: 2,748 ✭✭✭DeadHand


    Its Only Ray Parlour wrote: »
    I'm not talking about wiping out the human species altogether, but reducing the planet's human population to about 3 billion will help put an end to things like climate change.

    Good man yourself.

    Will you be volunteering your own life to help us get down to the 3 billion or will you be nominating a family member?


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    #1324
    Ralphdejones
    Closed Accounts Posts: 581 ✭✭✭Ralphdejones


    Muise... wrote: »
    The law did not protect the human life of the woman in this case - it treated her as a troublesome vessel, to be deliberately left hanging in distress till her foetus was viable. This is disgusting.
    shruikan2553 wrote: »
    You may be surprised to hear this as it is often ignored by pro life people but there is a woman with rights involved too.

    If only the law had treated the child as a parasite with no human rights it would be great then


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    #1325
    Muise...
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,512 ✭✭✭Muise...


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    Sure if only the law had treated the child foetus as parasite with no human rights it would be great then

    yep. over and out.


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    #1326
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    If only the law had treated the child as a parasite with no human rights it would be great then

    Simple question for you,

    If your teenage daughter (future daughter?) came home tomorrow and said

    "Mom/Dad, I'm pregnant, I was raped on a night out and i was to ashamed to go to the police or tell anyone. I don't want to have this baby i want an abortion"

    What would you say to that girl?


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    #1327
    Ralphdejones
    Closed Accounts Posts: 581 ✭✭✭Ralphdejones


    bumper234 wrote: »
    Simple question for you,

    If your teenage daughter (future daughter?) came home tomorrow and said

    "Mom/Dad, I'm pregnant, I was raped on a night out and i was to ashamed to go to the police or tell anyone. I don't want to have this baby i want an abortion"

    What would you say to that girl?

    I'd say why, what did the child do, and why do you think killing an innocent child will make you feel better ? Why should the child or you be stigmatised ? Neither of you did anything wrong.


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    #1328
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    I'd say why, what did the child do, and why do you think killing an innocent child will make you feel better ? Why should the child or you be stigmatised ? Neither of you did anything wrong.

    So you would try to talk your own teenage rape victim daughter into carrying and giving birth to the child of her rapist?

    And they call pro choice people sick :confused:


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    #1329
    Ralphdejones
    Closed Accounts Posts: 581 ✭✭✭Ralphdejones


    bumper234 wrote: »
    So you would try to talk your own teenage rape victim daughter into carrying and giving birth to the child of her rapist?

    And they call pro choice people sick :confused:

    If you think killing an innocent child, and stigmatising them and their mother, is a solution to rape, it's not.


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    #1330
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    If you think killing innocent child, and stigmatising them and their mother, is a solution to rape, it's not.

    It's not a child it's a bunch of cells.


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    #1331
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    If you think killing innocent child, and stigmatising them and their mother, is a solution to rape, it's not.

    No, it's a solution to a threat to life from suicide.


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    #1332
    RobertKK
    Registered Users Posts: 33,749 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    Calina wrote: »
    This is an asinine comment.

    Tell that to the ethicists linked to Oxford university.
    I am just putting forward their argument, given abortion is a treatment for suicidal ideation according to some including the law based on fairy tales/not evidence.


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    #1333
    Ineedaname
    Closed Accounts Posts: 369 ✭✭Ineedaname


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    If it's just a "jellybean with no brain", why kill it ?
    I don't think killing or blaming a child for the crimes of adults is any solution in a civilised world.
    Why should such innocent children continue to be deliberately stigmatised in society ?
    In who's interest is the perpetuation of this stigmatisation ?
    Two wrongs don't make a right.

    What about the innocent woman?

    First of all she is raped. Secondly she is forced to carry her rapists child against her will. But the child was saved.

    Did the end justify the means? Do those two wrongs make a right?


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    #1334
    DeadHand
    Registered Users Posts: 2,748 ✭✭✭DeadHand


    I'm for the legislation of abortion but calling a foetus a parasite... That's just callous.


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    #1335
    RobertKK
    Registered Users Posts: 33,749 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    lazygal wrote: »
    No, it's a solution to a threat to life from suicide.

    That is the fairy tales argument.

    If someone is suicidal over huge debts and is about to jump from the 40th floor of a building, does one step in and pay the debts or get the person proper treatment for their mental healthcare problem?


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    #1336
    Ralphdejones
    Closed Accounts Posts: 581 ✭✭✭Ralphdejones


    bumper234 wrote: »
    Simple question for you,

    If your teenage daughter (future daughter?) came home tomorrow and said

    "Mom/Dad, I'm pregnant, I was raped on a night out and i was to ashamed to go to the police or tell anyone. I don't want to have this baby i want an abortion"

    What would you say to that girl?
    bumper234 wrote: »
    So you would try to talk your own teenage rape victim daughter into carrying and giving birth to the child of her rapist?
    bumper234 wrote: »
    It's not a child it's a bunch of cells.

    Now it's a bunch of cells
    We're all a 'bunch of cells'


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    #1337
    eeepaulo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,323 ✭✭✭eeepaulo


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    If you think killing an innocent child, and stigmatising them and their mother, is a solution to rape, it's not.

    I do not think you meant stigmatising

    It would be people like you who would be branding her a disgrace


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    #1338
    efb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 35,514 ✭✭✭✭efb


    RobertKK wrote: »
    People voted to give the unborn the right to life.

    In a civilised progressive society this is what one would expect.

    People voted (twice) to strike down a law excluding sucicidal ideation as a reason to allow termination of a pregnancy


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    #1339
    Kiwi in IE
    Registered Users Posts: 3,063 ✭✭✭Kiwi in IE


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    I'd say why, what did the child do, and why do you think killing an innocent child will make you feel better ? Why should the child or you be stigmatised ? Neither of you did anything wrong.

    Well I feel genuine pity for any daughter/future daughter that you may have.

    Would you really consider a few cells dividing inside your daughter, put there by a rapist, equally as or more important than her?

    If my daughter were in that hideous position I would do anything it took to ensure she was taken out of this country and an abortion was preformed at the earliest oppurtunity. If I had to remortgage my house, take out a loan or even sell my own body in order to make it happen I would do so!


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    #1340
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    RobertKK wrote: »
    That is the fairy tales argument.

    If someone is suicidal over huge debts and is about to jump from the 40th floor of a building, does one step in and pay the debts or get the person proper treatment for their mental healthcare problem?

    Which do you rescue from a burning hospital, a Petri dish of embryos or a newborn baby?


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    #1341
    padd b1975
    Registered Users Posts: 10,769 ✭✭✭✭padd b1975


    takamichinoku wrote: »
    Would it? Can't see what's to be gained from comparing Ireland to a (presumably) less developed country. "If you think we suck, then why does this other place suck more?":confused:.

    It hasn't been established that she came from a less developed country.

    There are many countries with excellent healthcare, but appalling human rights, especially to women.


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    #1342
    RobertKK
    Registered Users Posts: 33,749 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    efb wrote: »
    People voted (twice) to strike down a law excluding sucicidal ideation as a reason to allow termination of a pregnancy

    Yes Dana and Ivana Bacik on the same side...says it all about that referendum.


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    #1343
    Ralphdejones
    Closed Accounts Posts: 581 ✭✭✭Ralphdejones


    eeepaulo wrote: »
    I do not think you meant stigmatising

    It would be people like you who would be branding her a disgrace

    What exactly do you mean by 'people like me' ?
    And why would I be branding her or her child a disgrace ?


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    #1344
    ProfessorPlum
    Registered Users Posts: 1,812 ✭✭✭ProfessorPlum


    green_screen wrote: »
    Because the woman was forcibly hydrated until the foetus was viable.
    green_screen wrote: »
    Because some medic decided it was a good idea to deny the woman her legal right to an abortion. I'd have thought that was evident.
    green_screen wrote: »
    'demands?' Fcuking hell. The woman was suicidal.

    The LAW states that she was entitled to an abortion.

    An 'ethical' medic wouldn't have taken the law into his own hands.
    green_screen wrote: »
    Nope. Breaking the law did, actually. An unethical, non-law-abiding medic did.

    But sure, it's grand. Force every woman who's raped to give birth. Cut their bodies open to remove the parasite inside.

    Who cares about the rights of the women, anyway?

    I'm sorry, but there is no evidence for what you are asserting. From my reading the s9 apication for a termination was granted in the form of a delivery as the foetus was viable. At that stage the woman went on hunger strike as she maintained she wanted an abortion, not a c section. An order was then sought to hydrate her. After that she consented to the Caesarian.
    Asserting that she was denied her right to an abortion, and that the doctor broke the law to delay until the foetus was viable is not doing your cause any favours.


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    #1345
    eeepaulo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,323 ✭✭✭eeepaulo


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    What exactly do you mean by 'people like me' ?
    And why would I be branding her or her child a disgrace ?

    People who scream child while frothing at the mouth

    My point stands, people like you would be the ones branding her

    Stigmatizing is branding someone


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    #1346
    Shenshen
    Registered Users Posts: 9,453 ✭✭✭Shenshen


    RobertKK wrote: »
    That is the fairy tales argument.

    If someone is suicidal over huge debts and is about to jump from the 40th floor of a building, does one step in and pay the debts or get the person proper treatment for their mental healthcare problem?

    So you would offer counselling rather than help and advise on how to manage the debt, how to talk to creditors and banks, or even just how to declare bankcrupcy?


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    #1347
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    Now it's a bunch of cells
    We're all a 'bunch of cells'

    When it's inside the womb it's a bunch of cells, when it's born it's a baby/child....how is this so hard for you to understand? Do you consider a 6 week old fetus to be a child?


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    #1348
    Ralphdejones
    Closed Accounts Posts: 581 ✭✭✭Ralphdejones


    Kiwi in IE wrote: »
    Well I feel genuine pity for any daughter/future daughter that you may have.

    Would you really consider a few cells dividing inside your daughter, put there by a rapist, equally as or more important than her?

    If my daughter were in that hideous position I would do anything it took to ensure she was taken out of this country and an abortion was preformed at the earliest oppurtunity. If I had to remortgage my house, take out a loan or even sell my own body in order to make it happen I would do so!

    Well I don't think trying to stigmatise your daughter or the baby is the solution to anything.
    And I don't think killing a child is any solution to a rape.


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    #1349
    efb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 35,514 ✭✭✭✭efb


    RobertKK wrote: »
    Yes Dana and Ivana Bacik on the same side...says it all about that referendum.

    That was the second one.


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    #1350
    Muise...
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,512 ✭✭✭Muise...


    Kiwi in IE wrote: »
    Well I feel genuine pity for any daughter/future daughter that you may have.

    Would you really consider a few cells dividing inside your daughter, put there by a rapist, equally as or more important than her?

    If my daughter were in that hideous position I would do anything it took to ensure she was taken out of this country and an abortion was preformed at the earliest oppurtunity. If I had to remortgage my house, take out a loan or even sell my own body in order to make it happen I would do so!

    This. I think this is motherhood, when chosen and cherished.


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    #1351
    ProfessorPlum
    Registered Users Posts: 1,812 ✭✭✭ProfessorPlum


    RobertKK wrote: »
    The twisted thing is people dismissing psychiatrists because their views don't suit.

    If a woman suffers severe depression after the birth, lets say gets post natal depression, and starts getting suicidal thoughts due to the baby, should the baby be killed as a treatment?
    A woman in the UK who was suffering from PND, jumped in front of a train going 100mph because she was so depressed from a baby that cried a lot and wouldn't sleep at night.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/10451374/New-mother-with-post-natal-depression-killed-by-100mph-train.html

    The baby was the cause of the suicidal thoughts and eventual suicide, given the logic used by some for pregnant women who are suicidal, would killing the baby have been the right approach or would more supports to the woman and mental health care be the option?
    btw at Oxford University they came out with killing a baby is no different to killing an unborn and should be allowed, so it could be used to treat suicidal mothers...

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/9113394/Killing-babies-no-different-from-abortion-experts-say.html

    Your understanding of post natal depression is appalling.


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