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woman refused abortion - Mod Note in first post.

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    #1592
    kylith
    Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    If she had the choice, I'd rather she went to the UK for all medical procedures, as I would myself, the UK has a lot better medical facilities in my experience.

    Please stop dodging the question.

    Hypothetically your daughter is raped and becomes pregnant. She wants to go to the UK to terminate the pregnancy. Do you support her choice and help her go to an English clinic?


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    #1593
    Czarcasm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,076 ✭✭✭✭Czarcasm


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    You were the one one that brought the quality of life argument up, and then continually failed to define what criteria people should be allowed to live and die by according to you. I don't believe a child should be killed because their mother demands it, or advising her that killing the child will improve her quality of life. It won't.


    1. You know well what is meant by a person's quality of life if you could compare the life of a person in the developed world with that of a person in the underdeveloped world.

    2. You are putting forward the argument that you should get to decide for someone else who lives and who dies. I have explained to you already that the only person who has a right to make that determination is the woman who is carrying the unborn child as it is her body in which the child resides.

    3. I have also explained to you already that I would not be advising the woman either way, but that it is you who demands that she must give birth against her will, thereby impacting upon her quality of life, to suit yourself.

    Stooping again to playing the poster rather than the post, says more about you than me.


    Demanding that a woman be forced to bend to your will though she does not want to, and may even risk suicide to avoid you imposing your will upon her, yet you complain that I am insulting you?

    This would indicate you have a severely limited perspective on life and are unable to comprehend why someone would criticise your opinion. Never mind what you might say about me -

    What would you say to a pregnant woman who was suicidal because she felt she was being forced to give birth, when she had made it explicitly clear to you that if you forced her to continue with the unwanted pregnancy, she would take her own life?


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    #1594
    kylith
    Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    bumper234 wrote: »
    It seems the only one stigmatising women here is you.
    I must agree. The only ones stigmatising anyone are those branding traumatised young women as child killers.
    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    Both the mother and the child are alive today, you'll have to explain why it would be better if the child were now dead.

    The child has an 80% chance of having severe disabilities, and the mother may well be so traumatised by the entire ordeal of forced pregnancy and surgery that she still winds up committing suicide. How is that better than aborting a clump of cells at 8 weeks gestation?


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    #1595
    AlexisM
    Registered Users Posts: 250 ✭✭AlexisM


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    Both the mother and the child are alive today, you'll have to explain why it would be better if the child were now dead.
    Both are alive but the mother is undoubtedly a psychological wreck and the child is undoubtedly a physical wreck.

    Once more with feeling - if the abortion had been dealt with cleanly at 8 weeks, there would be no child to be dead - it would never have been. So unless you'd like to join us in a rousing chorus of the Monty Python classic 'Every sperm is sacred', you need to understand that many people (the majority of posters here) consider an early abortion to be the termination of a potential life, not a child.


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    #1596
    In Lonesome Dove
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 479 ✭✭In Lonesome Dove


    kylith wrote: »
    I must agree. The only ones stigmatising anyone are those branding traumatised young women as child killers.


    The child has an 80% chance of having severe disabilities, and the mother may well be so traumatised by the entire ordeal of forced pregnancy and surgery that she still winds up committing suicide. How is that better than aborting a clump of cells at 8 weeks gestation?

    I wonder would the woman have grounds to take to take court case to Europe on human rights or something? The ordeal she went through could have been avoided if the abortion pill was allowed in the early stages of the unwanted pregnancy.


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    #1597
    Ralphdejones
    Closed Accounts Posts: 581 ✭✭✭Ralphdejones


    kylith wrote: »
    Please stop dodging the question.

    Hypothetically your daughter is raped and becomes pregnant. She wants to go to the UK to terminate the pregnancy. Do you support her choice and help her go to an English clinic?

    Not a single question has been 'dodged'

    Yes I would support her, but I also would assure her that her or the child has not done anything wrong, and that an innocent child does not need to be aborted, no matter what 'society' says.


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    #1598
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users Posts: 11,943 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    The Ebola Virus wrote: »
    If you want to believe you are superior to other human beings thats fine, it's an illusion in your head though. All life should be treated equally, you are not superior to a foetus.

    Your wife has a high probability of dying during pregnancy. Would you let her die rather than "ZOMG KILL THE UNBORN!"


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    #1599
    Ralphdejones
    Closed Accounts Posts: 581 ✭✭✭Ralphdejones


    AlexisM wrote: »
    Both are alive but the mother is undoubtedly a psychological wreck and the child is undoubtedly a physical wreck.

    So why would abortion be a cure for her or the child ?
    AlexisM wrote: »
    Once more with feeling - if the abortion had been dealt with cleanly at 8 weeks, there would be no child to be dead - it would never have been. So unless you'd like to join us in a rousing chorus of the Monty Python classic 'Every sperm is sacred', you need to understand that many people (the majority of posters here) consider an early abortion to be the termination of a potential life, not a child.

    I really hope you didn't learn your biology from Monty Python, an eight week old unborn child is a human life, a sperm is not.


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    #1600
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,799 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    Not a single question has been 'dodged'

    Yes I would support her, but I also would assure her that her or the child has not done anything wrong, and that an innocent child does not need to be aborted, no matter what 'society' says.

    These are contradictory statements.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #1601
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users Posts: 11,943 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    The Ebola Virus wrote: »
    It depends on the probabilities.

    And what if the pregnancy would cripple her? Is it OK to abort then?


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    #1602
    AlexisM
    Registered Users Posts: 250 ✭✭AlexisM


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    So why would abortion be a cure for her or the child ?
    There would be no child to cure of anything so I'm not sure what you're asking with that bit.

    The mother's psychological state has likely been substantially worsened by the enforced continuing pregnancy between her first request at 8 weeks and the delivery at 23/25 weeks. So if there had been an early termination, there would be a lot less to cure - and probably no suicidal tendencies to cure as it was the pregnancy that caused them in the first place.


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    #1603
    The Singing Beard
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 72 ✭✭The Singing Beard


    Maybe I'm missing something.

    In Ireland, you can get an abortion on health grounds if you are suicidal.

    The woman appealed on this ground.

    She was deemed not to be suicidal by a panel of experts, hence was not granted an abortion.

    If she was deemed to be suicidal, then she would have gotten the abortion.

    No law has been broken, no one was denied rights.

    Why the outrage?


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    #1604
    Ralphdejones
    Closed Accounts Posts: 581 ✭✭✭Ralphdejones


    SW wrote: »
    These are contradictory statements.

    You don't have to agree with abortion to support someone who is having one. To say that you do is contradictory. Nor do you have to advocate that abortion is a solution to pregnancy after rape just because some people in society still insist on stigmatising the victim and the innocent child of a rape.


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    #1605
    P_1
    Registered Users Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭P_1


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    I really hope you didn't learn your biology from Monty Python, an eight week old unborn child is a human life, a sperm is not.

    Well that's debatable. Generally I wouldn't consider life to begin until the being develops sentience and most medical evidence suggests that an 8 week old foetus has yet to develop that.


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    #1606
    Ralphdejones
    Closed Accounts Posts: 581 ✭✭✭Ralphdejones


    AlexisM wrote: »
    There would be no child to cure of anything so I'm not sure what you're asking with that bit.

    The mother's psychological state has likely been substantially worsened by the enforced continuing pregnancy between her first request at 8 weeks and the delivery at 23/25 weeks. So if there had been an early termination, there would be a lot less to cure - and probably no suicidal tendencies to cure as it was the pregnancy that caused them in the first place.


    But there is a child, who is alive and well today. A child and a mother that done nothing wrong. Abortion is not a cure or treatment for suicide.


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    #1607
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    The Singing Beard wrote: »
    Maybe I'm missing something.

    In Ireland, you can get an abortion on health grounds if you are suicidal.

    The woman appealed on this ground.

    She was deemed not to be suicidal by a panel of experts, hence was not granted an abortion.

    If she was deemed to be suicidal, then she would have gotten the abortion.

    No law has been broken, no one was denied rights.

    Why the outrage?


    You are incorrect. You can only have an abortion if your life is under threat. Health isn't grounds for abortion. The woman was deemed suicidal, but the termination of pregnancy was delayed by an obstetrician so the foetus could develop to the point of viability even though psychiatrists deemed the woman's life was at risk because of suicide.


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    #1608
    The Singing Beard
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 72 ✭✭The Singing Beard


    lazygal wrote: »
    You are incorrect. You can only have an abortion if your life is under threat. Health isn't grounds for abortion. The woman was deemed suicidal, but the termination of pregnancy was delayed by an obstetrician so the foetus could develop to the point of viability even though psychiatrists deemed the woman's life was at risk because of suicide.
    My mistake. Apologies.


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    #1609
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,799 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    You don't have to agree with abortion to support someone who is having one. To say that you do is contradictory.
    Good thing I didn't say that.
    Nor do you have to advocate that abortion is a solution to pregnancy after rape just because some people in society still insist on stigmatising the victim and the innocent child of a rape.
    Not sure how that applies to anything I said.

    You said you'd support her while telling her that an innocent child doesn't have to be aborted. That is clearly condtradictory. You're not just disagreeing with abortion, you're actively trying to dissuade her. That's your preogative. But don't suggest that it is supporting her when it's obviously not.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #1610
    DeadHand
    Registered Users Posts: 2,748 ✭✭✭DeadHand


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    I wouldn't trust any politician, but they do seem to be held to a higher standard in the UK

    They behave too and set themselves to a far higher standard in the UK.


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    #1611
    Ralphdejones
    Closed Accounts Posts: 581 ✭✭✭Ralphdejones


    SW wrote: »
    Good thing I didn't say that.

    Not sure how that applies to anything I said.

    You said you'd support her while telling her that an innocent child doesn't have to be aborted. That is clearly condtradictory. You're not just disagreeing with abortion, you're actively trying to dissuade her. That's your preogative. But don't suggest that it is supporting her when it's obviously not.

    If she decided she was keeping the child what would you say, would you support her and the child ? If your advocating abortion in such circumstances, to do so is clearly contradictory.


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    #1612
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    How would you advise her, that she should have an abortion and killing the innocent child will make her feel all better ? Because it won't, two wrongs don't make a right.

    do you know what support means? It means putting the other person and their needs first, its not about you and what you want.


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    #1613
    AlexisM
    Registered Users Posts: 250 ✭✭AlexisM


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    But there is a child, who is alive and well today.
    I know you like ball playing not man playing but really - are you a bit simple? You asked:
    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    So why would abortion be a cure for ... the child ?
    - which makes no sense (as I pointed out).

    If there was an abortion, there would be no child to 'cure'...

    except there was no abortion so there's a child...

    So what were you asking with 'why would abortion be a cure for the child?'

    You seem to be deliberately obfuscating with constant nonsensical references to 'the child' and 'why should the child suffer' and now chicken and egg circular questions so I'll leave you at it.


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    #1614
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,799 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    How would you advise her, that she should have an abortion and killing the innocent child will make her feel all better ? Because it won't, two wrongs don't make a right.

    I would support her whether she chose to abort or not. It's her choice. It's not an easy situation for any woman so I don't need to be pressuring her towards aborting or continuing with the pregnancy.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #1615
    Kiwi in IE
    Registered Users Posts: 3,063 ✭✭✭Kiwi in IE


    lazygal wrote: »
    I'm waiting for the hoards to descend and offer to adopt the child seeing as adoption is the 'solution' for a woman with an unwanted pregnancy according to many pro lifers.

    Adoption and 'Pro Life'! OH and I are about to start IVF due to secondary infertility. Failing that we may go on the adoption list.

    It makes me feel sick when pro lifers trot out "But the raped/13 year old/dosn't want to be pregnant woman should be forced to go through with the unwanted pregnancy and then adopt the child because there are thousands of parents who would love the chance to adopt".

    If it turns out that I cannot have another biological child, yes I would love the chance to adopt. But not ever at the expense of another woman's right to bodily integrity!


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    #1616
    Mardy Bum
    Registered Users Posts: 3,674 ✭✭✭Mardy Bum


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    How would you advise her, that she should have an abortion and killing the innocent child will make her feel all better ? Because it won't, two wrongs don't make a right.

    Your moral code is not universal I'm afraid.

    Do you think an 8 week fetus is a child?


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    #1617
    Ralphdejones
    Closed Accounts Posts: 581 ✭✭✭Ralphdejones


    eviltwin wrote: »
    do you know what support means? It means putting the other person and their needs first, its not about you and what you want.

    And that applies to the innocent child as well


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    #1618
    kylith
    Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    How would you advise her, that she should have an abortion and killing the innocent child will make her feel all better ? Because it won't, two wrongs don't make a right.

    I appreciate what you're trying to say, but if you tell someone 'I support you, but you're killing an innocent life' how do you think they will feel? You would be telling her that she is a murderer, that what she felt she needed to feel whole again, to feel back in control of her life and a body, was murdering an 'innocent life' when it is not. A foetus is not alive any more than a kidney is, not until it is capable of living independently.


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    #1619
    Czarcasm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,076 ✭✭✭✭Czarcasm


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    But there is a child, who is alive and well today.


    Alive? Just about, and that's only due to modern medical technology. "Well" is a very subjective term - "well in comparison to other unwanted babies delivered by caesarean section at 26 weeks", or " well in comparison to wanted babies delivered by natural delivery at full term"?

    A child and a mother that done nothing wrong.


    Nobody here has suggested either the mother or the child have done anything wrong. The woman would still have done nothing wrong if she had been permitted to have an abortion to terminate her unwanted pregnancy.

    Abortion is not a cure or treatment for suicide.


    Nobody has argued that abortion is a cure or treatment for suicide. Abortion is the termination of a pregnancy that results in the death of the unborn child. Suicide is the termination of the life of the pregnant woman that results in the death of the woman and usually the death of the unborn child shortly thereafter.

    Suicide is a far more drastic course of action that results in the loss of two lives, whereas abortion usually results in the loss of one life.


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    #1620
    Kiwi in IE
    Registered Users Posts: 3,063 ✭✭✭Kiwi in IE


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    And that applies to the innocent child as well

    INNOCENT CHILD!!!! X 7500
    But is actually referring to foetus not child

    Anything else to add to the debate?


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    #1621
    Ralphdejones
    Closed Accounts Posts: 581 ✭✭✭Ralphdejones


    Mardy Bum wrote: »
    Your moral code is not universal I'm afraid.
    I don't recall anyone claiming this strawman yet, are you ?
    Mardy Bum wrote: »
    Do you think an 8 week fetus is a child?

    A fetus is an unborn child and a human life, what are you claiming it is ?


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