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woman refused abortion - Mod Note in first post.

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    #1622
    Ralphdejones
    Closed Accounts Posts: 581 ✭✭✭Ralphdejones


    Kiwi in IE wrote: »

    Anything else to add to the debate?

    Do you practice what you preach ?


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    #1623
    kylith
    Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    If she decided she was keeping the child what would you say, would you support her and the child ? If your advocating abortion in such circumstances, to do so is clearly contradictory.

    I would tell her "I will support you, whatever decision you feel is right for you". Supporting someone means withholding judgement, regardless of your own feelings.


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    #1624
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Ralphdejones wrote: »


    A fetus is an unborn child and a human life,

    Nope.


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    #1625
    Kiwi in IE
    Registered Users Posts: 3,063 ✭✭✭Kiwi in IE


    Ralphdejones wrote: »

    A fetus is an unborn child and a human life, what are you claiming it is ?

    I am claiming that it is a foetus!

    Is a fertilised chicken egg the same thing as a chicken?


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    #1626
    Mardy Bum
    Registered Users Posts: 3,674 ✭✭✭Mardy Bum


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    I don't recall anyone claiming this strawman yet, are you ?



    A fetus is an unborn child and a human life, what are you claiming it is ?

    Did you read the bit in bold you claim two wrongs don't make a right which is wholly subjective and therefore BS. So I just wanted to clarify that.

    What is a child then? I'd advise using google.

    Are you aware of prenatal development? Have you seen an 8 week old fetus? Its 13mm.

    A fetus is indeed capable of human life. But it is a fetus not a child and by placing the word unborn in front is a bad attempt at trying to stir emotion and is medically speaking incorrect. By your logic sperm is an unborn fetus or unborn child to take it to its logical conclusion.


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    #1627
    Ralphdejones
    Closed Accounts Posts: 581 ✭✭✭Ralphdejones


    kylith wrote: »
    I appreciate what you're trying to say, but if you tell someone 'I support you, but you're killing an innocent life' how do you think they will feel? You would be telling her that she is a murderer, that what she felt she needed to feel whole again, to feel back in control of her life and a body, was murdering an 'innocent life' when it is not. A foetus is not alive any more than a kidney is, not until it is capable of living independently.

    I'm not going to lie to them and cover up that they are not taking an innocent human life. There is a difference between killing and murder, you're the one claiming murder. At the same time to tell her that a fetus is not a human life and is just the same as a destroying a kidney would completely dishonest. She or the child should not be made to feel any shame, neither of them have done anything wrong, and no innocent child or innocent mother should be stigmatised in society in the case of a rape.


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    #1628
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    I'm not going to lie to them and cover up that they are not taking an innocent human life. There is a difference between killing and murder, you're the one claiming murder. At the same time to tell her that a fetus is not a human life and is just the same as a destroying a kidney would completely dishonest. She or the child should not be made to feel any shame, neither of them have done anything wrong, and no innocent child or innocent mother should be stigmatised in society in the case of a rape.


    What about stigmatising a woman who has had an abortion?


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    #1629
    Ralphdejones
    Closed Accounts Posts: 581 ✭✭✭Ralphdejones


    Nodin wrote: »
    Nope.

    Yep


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    #1630
    Ralphdejones
    Closed Accounts Posts: 581 ✭✭✭Ralphdejones


    Nodin wrote: »
    What about stigmatising a woman who has had an abortion?

    There should be no stigma if someone makes such a tragic mistake, but why is an abortion necessary in the first place ?


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    #1631
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,799 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    I'm not going to lie to them and cover up that they are not taking an innocent human life. There is a difference between killing and murder, you're the one claiming murder. At the same time to tell her that a fetus is not a human life and is just the same as a destroying a kidney would completely dishonest. She or the child should not be made to feel any shame, neither of them have done anything wrong, and no innocent child or innocent mother should be stigmatised in society in the case of a rape.

    Well at least we've cleared up that you wouldn't support the woman if she chose to have an abortion.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #1632
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    There should be no stigma if someone makes such a tragic mistake, but why is an abortion necessary in the first place ?

    so its only okay if its a mistake, what if she is one of the many women with no regrets?


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    #1633
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    There should be no stigma if someone makes such a tragic mistake,

    In your opinion, its a "tragic mistake"
    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    but why is an abortion necessary in the first place ?


    Because the woman wants it, I'd imagine.


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    #1634
    Bongalongherb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,766 ✭✭✭Bongalongherb


    As is said...We need a referendum and that will be the end of it.

    Twenty years waiting to have a referendum of which has not come to fruition yet, we need one now. We are being denied our democratic right to a referendum. This issue keeps getting pushed under the carpet.


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    #1635
    Ralphdejones
    Closed Accounts Posts: 581 ✭✭✭Ralphdejones


    SW wrote: »
    Well at least we've cleared up that you wouldn't support the woman if she chose to have an abortion.

    Despite me stating the exact opposite. We've cleared up something all right, but not what you claim.


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    #1636
    kylith
    Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    I'm not going to lie to them and cover up that they are not taking an innocent human life. There is a difference between killing and murder, you're the one claiming murder. At the same time to tell her that a fetus is not a human life and is just the same as a destroying a kidney would completely dishonest. She or the child should not be made to feel any shame, neither of them have done anything wrong, and no innocent child or innocent mother should be stigmatised in society in the case of a rape.
    You believe that a foetus is a human life. Is purposefully ending a human life not murder to you?

    No-one is talking about making anyone feel shame except you. The rest of us are talking about supporting a woman, whatever choice she makes.
    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    There should be no stigma if someone makes such a tragic mistake, but why is an abortion necessary in the first place ?

    Because the pregnant woman or girl wants one.


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    #1637
    Ralphdejones
    Closed Accounts Posts: 581 ✭✭✭Ralphdejones


    eviltwin wrote: »
    so its only okay if its a mistake, what if she is one of the many women with no regrets?

    It's irrelevant if a person has regrets taking another life or not, it won't make it correct.


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    #1638
    DeadHand
    Registered Users Posts: 2,748 ✭✭✭DeadHand


    Ok, ok, ok, ok...

    Clearly, auld Ralph is irreversibly entrenched on this issue... He's (can't possibly be a she) been getting a kicking from all angles here.

    Can the denizens of AH just... I don't know... Cease feeding trolls, cease parading their liberal credentials and (I realise we shouldn't hold our breath for this) wait for the next referendum?

    I mean, the lad's been intelligently and logically retorted several times already but, at this stage, it's like watching an animal get torn apart by several other, keener, animals.

    Just stop the bloody slaughter.


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    #1639
    In Lonesome Dove
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 479 ✭✭In Lonesome Dove


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    I don't recall anyone claiming this strawman yet, are you ?



    A fetus is an unborn child and a human life, what are you claiming it is ?

    Up to a certain point in prenancy a fertilised egg is just a group of growing cells. It is not a child or a human life. This would be evident in say for example an early miscarrage where bleeding occurs. There's a small procedure after available in hospital for remaining pregnancy tissue to be removed. At no point what comes out from this is a child.


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    #1640
    EuskalHerria
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,273 ✭✭✭EuskalHerria


    Kitty Holland just tweeted this:

    "@KittyHollandIT: Interview in tomorrow's @IrishTimes with young woman refused an abortion"


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    #1641
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,799 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    Despite me stating the exact opposite. We've cleared up something all right, but not what you claim.

    you're going to tell them they are taking an innocent life. On what planet is that considered supportive?

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #1642
    Mountainsandh
    Registered Users Posts: 6,700 ✭✭✭Mountainsandh


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    But there is a child, who is alive and well today. A child and a mother that done nothing wrong. Abortion is not a cure or treatment for suicide.

    Would you ever stop with that refrain ?

    If a woman who has been raped is to carry the fetus from that rape to term, it is 24 hours or 1440 minutes each day when she is reminded of the rape.

    Over 9 months, 394 462 minutes.

    When you're pregnant, you feel it every minute of every day, the first weeks/months with mood swings, sore breasts, nausea, extreme tiredness, sometimes it affects your dreams too, then the physical changes get even more invasive, your hair texture changes, your skin, you feel it when you sleep, you can't sleep because you can't find the right position, or you have heartburn all day, or, awful to think about when you don't want the fetus, it flutters and moves inside you, and you feel that too. You might have strange cravings, hormones can affect your ligaments, and you may have severe pelvic pains, some women are downright unable to walk. You may also get carpal tunnel syndrome, and all that I have mentioned there are only the harmless, mild side effects of being pregnant. You may have some of the more serious conditions that can develop in pregnancy.

    These can be tough when you're not suicidal.

    What effect do you think all of the above have on a suicidal person ?

    When a woman becomes suicidal as a result of a rape, chances are she wants to forget about the rape, not be reminded of it for an excruciating 394 462 minutes culminating in an outcome (a baby) that will forever remind her of the rape.

    So yes, I would venture that although it may not heal the woman entirely from suicidal thoughts, an abortion would certainly be the first step towards recovery.

    As opposed to a churning whirlpool reminding her why she wants to end it all in the first place.

    For all the supposedly supportive thoughts you chant for mother and child, you seem to be unable to empathize.


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    #1643
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    SW wrote: »
    you're going to tell them they are taking an innocent life. On what planet is that considered supportive?


    Planet Emotional Blackmail, near the Tell Women What To Do system.


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    #1644
    Ralphdejones
    Closed Accounts Posts: 581 ✭✭✭Ralphdejones


    kylith wrote: »
    You believe that a foetus is a human life.

    It's not a belief, its a biological fact that human life begins at conception.
    When you do believe human life begins ?
    kylith wrote: »
    Is purposefully ending a human life not murder to you?

    That depends on the circumstances, a court decides criminal charges. In countries where late term abortions are ilegal, do they enforce murder charges, I don't know.
    kylith wrote: »
    No-one is talking about making anyone feel shame except you. The rest of us are talking about supporting a woman, whatever choice she makes.

    Because the pregnant woman or girl wants one.

    Because someone wants something does not make it correct, there is a child's life also involved. Why is there no talk of supporting the child that was saved ?


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    #1645
    Ralphdejones
    Closed Accounts Posts: 581 ✭✭✭Ralphdejones


    EuskalHerria wrote: »
    Kitty Holland just tweeted this:

    "@KittyHollandIT: Interview in tomorrow's @IrishTimes with young woman refused an abortion"

    Lets hope she reports it accurately this time


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    #1646
    Corkfeen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,940 ✭✭✭Corkfeen


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    There should be no stigma if someone makes such a tragic mistake, but why is an abortion necessary in the first place ?
    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    It's irrelevant if a person has regrets taking another life or not, it won't make it correct.

    Statements like this are the reason for the stigma, you do realise that? Equating abortion with infanticide is going to result in stigma. Firstly, it's factually incorrectly. It's highly unfair on the women who have abortions.


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    #1647
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    Lets hope she doesn't make a balls of it this time


    What's that supposed to mean?


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    #1648
    Pwindedd
    Registered Users Posts: 2,285 ✭✭✭Pwindedd


    I actually haven't finished reading this thread, we can all see the inevitable path it's taking, back here in page 24(we do long pages here, ya short page freaks)

    I think we've established it's an awful situation for a woman to be in, we're just looking at it from different sides. This woman has been failed by our system, miserably. Who knows what the eventual outcome of this situation will be.

    Fertility developments have meant that women who couldnt possibly have conceived naturally before, are now much more likely to get pregnant. And you can't fail to see the irony that some women desperately want to conceive and can't, whereas others can fall pregnant at the drop of a hat yet don't want to be pregnant. Natures a bįtch that way!

    If we can assist the women who want to conceive then surely we can equally support the women that don't want to be. How wonderful it would be if every single child born was wanted and loved. Adoption is a wonderful solution - but I would imagine you'd have to be a fairly robust person to come out of it totally unscathed.

    To have a human grow inside you for 9 months and then give birth is no breeze. It takes it's toll (I still can't blow my nose unless I'm also on the toilet) - would I do it all again ? Yup. Would I put someone else through it who wasn't ready and willing ? Hell no.

    Let's hope similar medical advances are made for are really good birth control that doesn't affect you hormonally or physically. Simple to use, 100% effective, non invasive. And available over the counter without costly GP visits. And more options for men to take control of their own fertility. Condoms is pretty much their only option, then they're reliant on trust, fortunately most people live by that code.


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    #1649
    Ralphdejones
    Closed Accounts Posts: 581 ✭✭✭Ralphdejones


    Corkfeen wrote: »
    Statements like this are the reason for the stigma, you do realise that? Equating abortion with infanticide is going to result in stigma. Firstly, it's factually incorrectly. It's highly unfair on the women who have abortions.

    Do you think abortion is fair on the child ?


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    #1650
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    Do you think abortion is fair on the child ?
    Lets hope she doesn't make a balls of it this time

    What does that mean?


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    #1651
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    Do you think abortion is fair on the child ?


    There is no child, just a foetus.


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