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woman refused abortion - Mod Note in first post.

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    #1652
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    Do you think abortion is fair on the child ?

    for the last time its not a child!!! do you think a woman who has a miscarriage has suffered the same degree of loss as a woman who loses a full term baby?


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    #1653
    eeepaulo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,323 ✭✭✭eeepaulo


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    It's not a belief, its a biological fact that human life begins at conception.

    This link gives a reasonable ethical overview of the 'fact' you keep repeating.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/abortion/child/alive_1.shtml


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    #1654
    kylith
    Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    It's not a belief, its a biological fact that human life begins at conception.
    No, it isn't a fact, it's an opinion.
    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    When you do believe human life begins ?
    I believe that life begins when a foetus is capable of surviving independently of its life support system - the womb. I do not think that an organism which does not have the ability to live independently, and which has no brain function, is 'alive', any more than a person whose brain functions have ceased is.


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    #1655
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    If you don't believe innocent human beings don't have an equal right to life, you're going to have to explain why. Just because some people don't and are killed, does not make it right.


    .


    I don't think you read anything on this thread, I have already given you an example where the law treats the right-to-life of an unborn child different to the right-to-life of a mother. See below again.
    Godge wrote: »
    No, you are the one who has argued that there is an equal right to life but have failed to justify this point in the face of many examples of unequal rights.

    Again, if a car accident results in injury to a woman and the loss of her unborn child, why isn't the person responsible charged with manslaughter if there is an equal right to life?


    Maybe you are not interested in rational debate.


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    #1656
    Kiwi in IE
    Registered Users Posts: 3,063 ✭✭✭Kiwi in IE


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    Do you think abortion is fair on the child ?

    We are talking about foetuses not children!

    Again I ask you; Is a fertilised chicken egg the same thing as a chicken?

    I have hens sitting on eggs at the moment.

    If I took one of those eggs away and put it in the fridge overnight or put it straight into a pot of boiling water do you think the ISPCA would be interested?

    How about if I did the same thing to a live chicken?


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    #1657
    strandroad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,676 ✭✭✭strandroad


    Sorry if it was mentioned already - Irish Examiner reports that the woman in this case is in fact a teenager.


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    #1658
    Kiwi in IE
    Registered Users Posts: 3,063 ✭✭✭Kiwi in IE


    I find it interesting that in this country live animals are deemed more important than their foetuses, but this does not apply to human women.

    If you took a pregnant cat or dog to the vet, and the pregnancy was a risk to her health, but not necessarily her life, what would the vet recommend?


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    #1659
    Ralphdejones
    Closed Accounts Posts: 581 ✭✭✭Ralphdejones


    eeepaulo wrote: »
    This link gives a reasonable ethical overview of the 'fact' you keep repeating.

    Nothing in that link contradicts that biological fact that biologically, human life begins at conception. Biologically, according to you, when does human life begin ?


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    #1660
    NuMarvel
    Registered Users Posts: 3,279 ✭✭✭NuMarvel


    In Lonesome Dove wrote: »
    I wonder would the woman have grounds to take to take court case to Europe on human rights or something? The ordeal she went through could have been avoided if the abortion pill was allowed in the early stages of the unwanted pregnancy.

    Ireland's abortion laws have already been before the European Court of Human Rights, and the Court has ruled that the Convention on Human Rights doesn't confer a right to abortion. The case is know as A, B, & C vs Ireland.

    Ironically, that case was still a major factor in the current law being put in place. The Court found that Ms C's rights were infringed because while abortion was permissible in Ireland in some cases (as per the Irish Supreme Court), there was no legal means for a woman to determine if she was eligible or not. So, the Government were instructed to put measures in place to fix that.


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    #1661
    Ralphdejones
    Closed Accounts Posts: 581 ✭✭✭Ralphdejones


    Nodin wrote: »
    There is no child, just a foetus.
    eviltwin wrote: »
    for the last time its not a child!!!
    Kiwi in IE wrote: »
    We are talking about foetuses not children!

    The child you wanted dead is alive and well.
    Kiwi in IE wrote: »
    I find it interesting that in this country live animals are deemed more important than their foetuses, but this does not apply to human women.

    If you took a pregnant cat or dog to the vet, and the pregnancy was a risk to her health, but not necessarily her life, what would the vet recommend?

    What's even more interesting is the mentality that an unborn animal's life is somehow equivalent to an unborn humans life, and that animals have more right to treatment than an unborn human child.


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    #1662
    ekimiam
    Registered Users Posts: 163 ✭✭ekimiam


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    Nothing in that link contradicts that biological fact that biologically, human life begins at conception. Biologically, according to you, when does human life begin ?

    if you aint breathing you aint alive (yet)


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    #1663
    Ralphdejones
    Closed Accounts Posts: 581 ✭✭✭Ralphdejones


    ekimiam wrote: »
    if you aint breathing you aint alive (yet)

    Hmm so if you are not breathing by yourself you have no right to life.


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    #1664
    Morag
    Registered Users Posts: 8,427 ✭✭✭Morag


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    The child you wanted dead is alive and well.



    What's even more interesting is the mentality that an unborn animal's life is somehow equivalent to an unborn humans life, and that animals have more right to treatment than an unborn human child.

    Animals have more right to thier health and medical treatments then women do.


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    #1665
    Ralphdejones
    Closed Accounts Posts: 581 ✭✭✭Ralphdejones


    Morag wrote: »
    Animals have more right to thier health and medical treatments then women do.

    And their children


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    #1666
    Morag
    Registered Users Posts: 8,427 ✭✭✭Morag


    If a cat is 4 weeks pregnant and has cancer and has been under going chemo, the cat can have an abortion and continue with the chemo.

    It a woman is 4 weeks pregnant and has cancer and has been under going chemo, the woman can NOT have an abortion and can NOT continue with the chemo.

    Cats have more of a right to health then I do.


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    #1667
    Morag
    Registered Users Posts: 8,427 ✭✭✭Morag


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    There should be no stigma if someone makes such a tragic mistake, but why is an abortion necessary in the first place ?

    Because the woman doesn't want to be pregnant.
    And calling it a tragic mistake is absurd.


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    #1668
    DeadHand
    Registered Users Posts: 2,748 ✭✭✭DeadHand


    Morag wrote: »
    Animals have more right to thier health and medical treatments then women do.

    Ah, here...

    How many animals do you know with a medical card? How many women do you know whose medical treatment depends totally on the whim of their owner? How many women "put to sleep" as a result of medical issues in the history of the Irish state?

    Let's not get silly here. Well, not anymore silly than it's gotten already.


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    #1669
    pq0n1ct4ve8zf5
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,070 ✭✭✭✭pq0n1ct4ve8zf5


    DeadHand wrote: »
    Ah, here...

    How many animals do you know with a medical card? How many women do you know whose medical treatment depends totally on the whim of their owner? How many women "put to sleep" as a result of medical issues in the history of the Irish state?

    Let's not get silly here. Well, not anymore silly than it's gotten already.

    Specifically in respect to their rights compared with the rights of any foetus they may be carrying, a pregnant animal DOES have more rights than a pregnant woman. It's silly, but it's true


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    #1670
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    What's even more interesting is the mentality that an unborn animal's life is somehow equivalent to an unborn humans life, and that animals have more right to treatment than an unborn human child.

    What makes a human life more valuable than an animals life? What's the difference between a human and an animal?


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    #1671
    Morag
    Registered Users Posts: 8,427 ✭✭✭Morag


    Potential human life.

    We should not force people to be walking life support for a potential human being when they do not wish to be.


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    #1672
    ekimiam
    Registered Users Posts: 163 ✭✭ekimiam


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    Hmm so if you are not breathing by yourself you have no right to life.

    what?
    life begins at breath.


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    #1673
    Ihatecuddles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,986 ✭✭✭Ihatecuddles


    Morag wrote: »
    If a cat is 4 weeks pregnant and has cancer and has been under going chemo, the cat can have an abortion and continue with the chemo.

    It a woman is 4 weeks pregnant and has cancer and has been under going chemo, the woman can NOT have an abortion and can NOT continue with the chemo.

    Cats have more of a right to health then I do.

    I thought women could go through chemo while pregnant?


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    #1674
    Morag
    Registered Users Posts: 8,427 ✭✭✭Morag


    mauzo! wrote: »
    I thought women could go through chemo while pregnant?

    Nope not if there is any risk what so ever to the 'unborn' inside her.


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    #1675
    pq0n1ct4ve8zf5
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,070 ✭✭✭✭pq0n1ct4ve8zf5


    mauzo! wrote: »
    I thought women could go through chemo while pregnant?
    Morag wrote: »
    Nope not if there is any risk what so ever to the 'unborn' inside her.

    AFAIK it depends on the type/location of cancer, for breast cancer chemotherapy is good to go after the first trimester and radiotherapy is usually avoided throughout.

    (I'm open to correction on that, haven't really looked it up since the bill passed and I might be misremembering stuff too)

    But, a woman undergoing treatment for cancer who finds out she's pregnant can't elect to have an abortion as it doesn't constitute any clear or immediate risk to her life to go continue with the pregnancy. I'd imagine that it's extremely difficult and traumatic to be pregnant and undergo cancer treatment at the same time, but again, unless you're suicidal or the pregnancy poses a risk to your life rather than your health, tough titty. It's madness.


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    #1676
    TempAc
    Registered Users Posts: 84 ✭✭TempAc


    DeadHand wrote: »
    How many women do you know whose medical treatment depends totally on the whim of their owner?
    Well I suppose in Ireland, depending who their owner is, be they a rapist or other type of partner who wants the child, that would be all of them surely?


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    #1677
    Turtwig
    Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    Gustavo CoolS Quote wrote: »
    AFAIK it depends on the type/location of cancer, for breast cancer chemotherapy is good to go after the first trimester and radiotherapy is usually avoided throughout.

    (I'm open to correction on that, haven't really looked it up since the bill passed and I might be misremembering stuff too)

    But, a woman undergoing treatment for cancer who finds out she's pregnant can't elect to have an abortion as it doesn't constitute any clear or immediate risk to her life to go continue with the pregnancy. I'd imagine that it's extremely difficult and traumatic to be pregnant and undergo cancer treatment at the same time, but again, unless you're suicidal or the pregnancy poses a risk to your life rather than your health, tough titty. It's madness.

    Methotrexate, is imo, a great example. It's a drug used to induce abortions. It can also cause birth defects. It's an effective drug for many people with auto immune diseases. The problem with immunomodulators is that it can be quite difficult to switch out and find working alternatives. In other words, if a woman get's pregnant there's no guarantee that by stopping the methotrexate they'll be able to control their symptoms with another drug. Thus, there is a very real potential threat to her quality of life, especially if she's in the middle of a 'flare' and yet we don't give the choice at all. In six months time it may be far easier for her to handle a pregnancy. It's also a discussion, like cancer treatment and well basically load of other pregnancy drug interactions that needs to be discussed.


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    #1678
    Ralphdejones
    Closed Accounts Posts: 581 ✭✭✭Ralphdejones


    Godge wrote: »
    I don't think you read anything on this thread, I have already given you an example where the law treats the right-to-life of an unborn child different to the right-to-life of a mother. See below again.

    Maybe you are not interested in rational debate.

    Car accidents ?

    In most car accidents involving a fatality no one is charged with manslaughter.

    I am, but I've not been presented with anything rational yet. From pets to vets to car accidents.

    Have you anything to do with the topic ?


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    #1679
    gctest50
    Registered Users Posts: 9,605 ✭✭✭gctest50


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    Nothing in that link contradicts that biological fact that biologically, human life begins at conception. Biologically, according to you, when does human life begin ?

    it doesn't really matter what you or i think

    in many countries ( that are not so infected by religious slime ) abortion is legal up to about 24 weeks

    thats what is needed here


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    #1680
    takamichinoku
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,110 ✭✭✭takamichinoku


    Does anyone want to compile all the non-answers to questions in this thread for me? I've a feeling they'd be hilarious all lined up together, desperate attempts to avoid answering pretty clear questions. :D


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    #1681
    Ralphdejones
    Closed Accounts Posts: 581 ✭✭✭Ralphdejones


    gctest50 wrote: »
    it doesn't really matter what you or i think

    Why bother thinking or posting about anything then ?
    gctest50 wrote: »
    in many countries ( that are not so infected by religious slime ) abortion is legal up to about 24 weeks

    thats what is needed here

    Lots of things that are not legal here are legal in other countries, it does not automatically make them right or needed here.


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