woman refused abortion - Mod Note in first post.

Daith

Phoebas wrote: »

Can there be no funding from the pro choice campaign for hard cases like this; it looks like the barrier to her getting an earlier termination in the UK was more financial than legal?

Yes hence the reference to a two tier abortion system in Ireland. Those who can pay and those who can't.

Soft Falling Rain

Reading that interview the situation smacks of doctors still being too afraid in regards to legislation. Such scenarios were always going to occur and this just illustrates even more that the legislation needs immediate attention again, and not be left for "another government" as our Justice Minister so tamely suggested.

Phoebas

Daith wrote: »

Yes hence the reference to a two tier abortion system in Ireland. Those who can pay and those who can't.

That's the situation as it stands. I was wondering if there was any barrier to private money being made available to women like this who for financial reasons can't afford to travel to the UK. I think state funded agencies are precluded, but private individuals?

It would obviously only be a sticking plaster but could have solved a lot of problem in this kind of case.

Phoebas

Soft Falling Rain wrote: »

Reading that interview the situation smacks of doctors still being too afraid in regards to legislation. Such scenarios were always going to occur and this just illustrates even more that the legislation needs immediate attention again, and not be left for "another government" as our Justice Minister so tamely suggested.

I don't think we could do much more without a constitutional referendum.
Its not likely within the lifetime of this government; I wonder will it be an issue on the doorsteps in the next election.
I doubt it.

Kermit.de.frog

Not trying to stir this terrible situation but why did the woman come here in the first place with any thoughts of having an abortion? Ireland's abortion laws are well known throughout Europe. You would think it would be the last place someone in this situation would come to.

Penny Tration

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Not trying to stir this terrible situation but why did the woman come here in the first place with any thoughts of having an abortion? Ireland's abortion laws are well known throughout Europe. You would think it would be the last place someone in this situation would come to.

She didn't find out she was pregnant until after she came here.

Mountainsandh

Phoebas wrote: »

That's the situation as it stands. I was wondering if there was any barrier to private money being made available to women like this who for financial reasons can't afford to travel to the UK. I think state funded agencies are precluded, but private individuals?

It would obviously only be a sticking plaster but could have solved a lot of problem in this kind of case.

Wouldn't that be illegal ? Like, financially supporting people in achieving something that is illegal here ?

And how shocking that this should be so.

rainbow kirby

Phoebas wrote: »

That's the situation as it stands. I was wondering if there was any barrier to private money being made available to women like this who for financial reasons can't afford to travel to the UK. I think state funded agencies are precluded, but private individuals?

That's pretty much what the Abortion Support Network (a UK-based charity) does - they help Irish women who need to travel.

Funnyonion79

Ralphdejones wrote: »

The child and the woman are both alive, why do you think an aborted child would have been a better outcome ?

Because

1. The child was the result of a horrific rape and was not wanted by the woman.
2. Now the woman will be mentally scarred for life because she was not only violated by the man who raped her, but also by the Irish state who agreed that she was suicidal but force fed her and forced her to have a c-section.
3. Now the child is fighting for life in a hospital and will grow up in the Irish care system - which, as we all know, is severely lacking - and no - adoption is probably not on the cards for this child.
4. The child that the woman wanted to abort to save herself from further mental trauma is now living and exists so the already mentally traumatised woman now has to overcome the fact that her child is alive somewhere and the guilt knowing she does not want to keep this child as it's a living reminder of the rape she wants to forget. An innocent living reminder, yes but one that the woman does not want anything to do with.
5. Now this child will grow up (if in fact, it even survives) and learn the circumstances of their conception and birth and have to live with the fact that their father was a rapist and their mother was forced to give birth to them and then subsequently rejected them.

This whole thing has been a total mess from start to finish and all of the above could've been avoided if the woman had been given a termination when she presented at 8 weeks. So yes, although the woman and the child are both living, they are living and will continue to live a hellish existence day in and day out so I think an aborted fetus at 8 weeks would've absolutely been a better outcome than the current one.

Funnyonion79

Ralphdejones wrote: »

Except it's not very clear.
Are you saying you would prefer the child had been aborted instead of being alive now, is that correct ?

Yes

johnnyskeleton

Funnyonion79 wrote: »

3. Now the child is fighting for life in a hospital and will grow up in the Irish care system - which, as we all know, is severely lacking - and no - adoption is probably not on the cards for this child.

Why not?

5. Now this child will grow up (if in fact, it even survives) and learn the circumstances of their conception and birth and have to live with the fact that their father was a rapist and their mother was forced to give birth to them and then subsequently rejected them.

How will he/she find out? I mean lets not just automatically assume everyhing will turn out for the worse in this otherwise tragic situation.

bumper234

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Not trying to stir this terrible situation but why did the woman come here in the first place with any thoughts of having an abortion? Ireland's abortion laws are well known throughout Europe. You would think it would be the last place someone in this situation would come to.

She was raped in her home country,

She came to Ireland and then found out she was pregnant.

Akrasia

I'm absolutely not a legal expert but I wonder what lies in wait for this baby?

The child is not an Irish citizen. I don't know if there are mechanisms for fast tracking the granting of citizenship for someone, but this child is in a legal quagmire, Who is the legal guardian of this child? He/she is presumably a citizen of whatever country His/her mother came from, so the Irish state may need to liase with the embassey of this country to decide the future of this baby?

Ash.J.Williams

tragic for all concerned...are we the only country that forces raped women to have their perpetrators kid?

rainbow kirby

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

tragic for all concerned...are we the only country that forces raped women to have their perpetrators kid?

Malta, Philippines and a significant proportion of Latin America would have similar laws.

The one thing in common? Catholicism. :rolleyes:

Funnyonion79

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Why not?

The sheer bureaucracy involved in adopting a child in Ireland means that couples have to wait years so a lot of couples end up adopting children from other countries. Also a child that might possibly grow up with medical issues is not at the top of prospective adoptive parents' lists. That's not to say it couldn't happen, but the odds are stacked against this child.


How will he/she find out? I mean lets not just automatically assume everyhing will turn out for the worse in this otherwise tragic situation.

Naturally I don't know how this will turn out, but the majority of people want to know who their parents are or where they came from. It's human nature.

This whole situation is completely tragic and I don't see any positive outcome here, hence my original response to Ralph's question. The simple fact is that this tragic case has been exacerbated even more by the inadequate excuse we have for abortion law in this country.

Calina

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Why not?



How will he/she find out? I mean lets not just automatically assume everyhing will turn out for the worse in this otherwise tragic situation.

I believe adopted children are entitled by right to investigate the circumstances of their birth and their birth mother. I'm open to correction on that.

Its Only Ray Parlour

rainbow kirby wrote: »

Malta, Philippines and a significant proportion of Latin America would have similar laws.

The one thing in common? Catholicism. :rolleyes:

You can hardly blame the Catholic Church. Their very survival depends on childhood indoctrination. Catholics breed Catholics so if foetuses are being aborted, they aren't being indoctrinated, then the Church will lose its control over the people.

They know this so that's why they're opposed to abortion. Same goes for Islam.

Phoebas

Mountainsandh wrote: »

Wouldn't that be illegal ? Like, financially supporting people in achieving something that is illegal here ?

And how shocking that this should be so.

I doubt it. If I gave some money to my sister for her to travel to the UK for an abortion that would hardly be illegal. HUundreds of people would be before the courts every year.

rainbow kirby wrote: »

That's pretty much what the Abortion Support Network (a UK-based charity) does - they help Irish women who need to travel.

Its a shame that someone couldn't have advised this woman of that option. We mightn't be where we are now.

emmabrighton

This barbaric act should not have happened.

It is barberism for this situation to have played out the way it did. I am coming from the position of a mother who spent 3 months in the very hospital where the infant now is. While the nurses are wonderful caring souls, they have so many babies to care for, I dont believe they will be able to replace the role of a preterm mommy.

The methods used to keep these micro-preemies alive are unspeakably painful and it breaks my heart to know what this infant will suffer. He will have the pain of being on an oscillating ventilator. One image that sticks in my mind is the description by the mother of a micro-preemie twin (24 weeks) crying silently in agony from the pain of fighting to live because on the ventiator, her baby could make no sound. My son was forever having painful heel pricks- the resulting tiny white scars that will be left on his hands, feet and scalp will last a lifetime. Brain bleeds are commonplace in the NICU. He had a spinal tap late one night. He was 30 weeks. I had one when I was 4 and I still remember the excruciating pain. They have sight tests, hearing tests, brain scans to check for bleeds, they often have to undergo surgery due to complications of premature birth which requires a trip to Temple Street Childrens Hospital which has its own complications.

But what hurts me more, he will not receive kangaroo care at all because there will be no mother hovering around his incubator from 9 am until 9 pm for the 16 weeks of his stay just for the chance to hold him against her chest for 20 minutes. He will be left unclothed because he will have no mother buying him premature baby clothes. When he cries because he is uncomfortable and he wants to change the position he is sleeping, no one will hear his cries. His mother wont be there to ask the nurse to turn him. No one will sing and read to him in the incubator. He will not be fed expressed breast milk because he has no mother to express for him. He will be more susceptible to necrotising enterocolitis as a result.

There was a baby in the cot beside my son who had been abandoned by his mother shortly after birth. I can’t blame her because she was a drug addict living on the streets. He was big but he was blind. His eyes would not close properly when he blinked. He was there for a week beside my little boy and nobody came to see him until the day he left. He left in a white baby grow, a little wollen cardie and a yellow wollen hat that looked like someone had donated it back in 1972.

I dont know where he went and I dont know where this baby will go, if he makes it to 40 weeks but I do know that he has already been let down by the system.

It is one thing for a premature baby to go through all the life saving measures employed in the NICU when when he has a family to come home to at the end of it. But there is so much sadness in these places, and this sadness stems from their conditions, from the parents grief of a premature birth and the grief of the loss of a longed for infant that was born too soon.

Why do the powers that be in Ireland feel it is a far better thing for this unwanted, unloved infant to be delivered so early and to have to suffer through his early months alone and then to become a ward of the state.

For shame on the state and for the people of Ireland for letting this happen.

My heart breaks for that tiny little baby today.

eeepaulo

Phoebas wrote: »

I doubt it. If I gave some money to my sister for her to travel to the UK for an abortion that would hardly be illegal. HUundreds of people would be before the courts every year.


Its a shame that someone couldn't have advised this woman of that option. We mightn't be where we are now.

There have been high profile cases in the UK over the past ten years with regard to assisted suicide, where the police have had the option to prosecute the person who facilitated the travel to holland, but chose not to,

Actually though, they were actually involved in the suicide, not just the travel arrangements, so probably not the same

mrsbyrne

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/woman-in-abortion-case-tells-of-suicide-attempt-1.1901256

Very difficult to make out the timeline of events from this update despite IT claiming to have interviewed the mum. The Irish Family Planning crowd seems to be involved. It appeard she only came to the hospitals attention around week 23.
My experience of asylum seekers they tend to avoid anybody in s hat or uniform for fear of breaking a rule.

Sierra Oscar

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Not trying to stir this terrible situation but why did the woman come here in the first place with any thoughts of having an abortion? Ireland's abortion laws are well known throughout Europe. You would think it would be the last place someone in this situation would come to.

Erm, she came to Ireland seeking asylum after fleeing a war torn country? And she did not know she was pregnant when she arrived?

I doubt she would have come here if she knew how badly she was about to be treated. It's bad enough being stuck in the prison like direct provision centers in the first place. Worse in fact, at least in prison you know when you will be released.

kylith

Mountainsandh wrote: »

Wouldn't that be illegal ? Like, financially supporting people in achieving something that is illegal here ?

And how shocking that this should be so.

I don't think it would be. It is legal for a woman to travel to have an abortion, so I don't see how it could be illegal to help her fund something legal.

Mountainsandh

kylith wrote: »

I don't think it would be. It is legal for a woman to travel to have an abortion, so I don't see how it could be illegal to help her fund something legal.

It wouldn't have helped this lady unfortunately I guess, since with the asylum seeking status she might just be tied with staying in the country she's seeking asylum from. Must be worrying enough to have to try go abroad and then come back if you travelled with family and they are in the first country of choice.

On the topic of what other countries have similar set up, El Salvador was in the global headlines not too long ago for a similarly scandalous story. http://m.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-22763510

SpaceTime

Recently I've overheard two groups of old ladies in Cork going on about how this situation is an international embarrassment.

Shows not everyone over 65 is a right wing conservative.

kylith

Mountainsandh wrote: »

It wouldn't have helped this lady unfortunately I guess, since with the asylum seeking status she might just be tied with staying in the country she's seeking asylum from. Must be worrying enough to have to try go abroad and then come back if you travelled with family and they are in the first country of choice.

On the topic of what other countries have similar set up, El Salvador was in the global headlines not too long ago for a similarly scandalous story. http://m.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-22763510

That's probably true. Although I really couldn't blame her now if she went to another EU country and requested asylum on the grounds of torture in Ireland.

eeepaulo

Mountainsandh wrote: »

It wouldn't have helped this lady unfortunately I guess, since with the asylum seeking status she might just be tied with staying in the country she's seeking asylum from. Must be worrying enough to have to try go abroad and then come back if you travelled with family and they are in the first country of choice.

On the topic of what other countries have similar set up, El Salvador was in the global headlines not too long ago for a similarly scandalous story. http://m.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-22763510

From that article

Spokeswoman for the anti-es abortion group Red Familia Claudia Handal also welcomed the outcome.
"We're happy because as we said from the beginning, it wasn't necessary to perform an abortion, the point was to respect the baby's life and to give Beatriz the care and the right to health that she deserved," she told Reuters news agency.

Does anyone believe for a moment that the mother is considered?

Shenshen

eeepaulo wrote: »

From that article

Spokeswoman for the anti-es abortion group Red Familia Claudia Handal also welcomed the outcome.
"We're happy because as we said from the beginning, it wasn't necessary to perform an abortion, the point was to respect the baby's life and to give Beatriz the care and the right to health that she deserved," she told Reuters news agency.

Does anyone believe for a moment that the mother is considered?

The foetus developed without a complete brain and skull and died shortly after birth.

Not for one moment.
It must have been clear a while back that the foetus would die soon after birth. This had nothing to do with respect for either baby (who could have died painlessly in an early abortion rather than slowly and painfully after birth) nor for the mother, whose health and life were put at unnecessary risk.
This is simply about a holier-than-thou principle.

RobertKK

This whole thing happened under the law which pro-choice were fighting for: legislate for X....

We got X case legislation and it is possibility even more controversial than what we had before.