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woman refused abortion - Mod Note in first post.

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    #1802
    Akrasia
    Registered Users Posts: 22,424 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    seamus wrote: »
    You do say it yourself though. She wanted an abortion on the grounds of being raped, yet unfortunately that is not a legal possibility in Ireland. I agree she probably felt like she was in limbo for the 16 weeks, no doubt confused about the whole thing, about her options, about what she was being told, and so forth.
    But by her own words, she didn't present to the HSE as suicidal until 24 weeks.
    I think that's the key thing to take from this.

    She's the victim of a unnecessarily restrictive law, which for an immigrant new to the country would seem like an impenetrable tangle of legalities. But I'm not entirely sure what could have been done to help her, given the legal restrictions. Had she presented to anyone at 8 or 16 weeks as being suicidal, then it would have been a whole different ball game. Had she told the IFPA that she was suicidal, I'm sure they would have acted.

    The legislation appears to work just fine, from a procedural point of view. It does exactly what it's supposed to do. However, what this case exposes is that the very women this legislation is supposed to protect are the ones least likely to understand how to navigate it.
    I agree,
    The system worked as intended once she got in the door, but the door was hidden from this woman and will be hidden from other vulnerable women when they need it most.

    The fact of the matter is, she was only referred to the HSE after she was advised to specifically go to a GP and tell her GP that she was suicidal due to rape. None of the other social services recognised the symptoms of suicidal ideation before she requested it herself, despite the fact that she was previously interrupted in the act of attempting suicide.


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    #1803
    shruikan2553
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,113 ✭✭✭shruikan2553


    Maxie26 wrote: »
    So we should just "put down" then, and give no chance, what is wrong with people with this attitude, no one knows for sure if a baby can live or not, or for how long if there is something wrong, can we not love what is not perfect, we all have to suffer sooner or later, does suffering at any age mean putting down, should we do this when our child is gets sick later in life, if my child gets cancer and suffers should i decide to put him or her to sleep so as not to be a bother to me to watch it suffer? come on ... what is your real problem with idea of live and let live? I have heard of parents hugging and cuddling their dying babies in their arms, even knowing they only have hours or minutes to live, would you not want to be their for them in their suffering, as a parent? You would do it if they were born!

    I would want the parents to decide themselves.


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    #1804
    kylith
    Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    geret wrote: »
    based on the advice they gave her she disclosed to them she was pregnant and didn't want to have it, so she did talk to them about it
    Again, we don't know how 'in depth' she talked about it with them and it would be influenced by all sorts of factors such as her relationship to them and their age, among others.

    For example: I may mention to a family friend that I have a UTI, I am unlikely to tell anyone but my closest friend that I got it because my boyfriend was riding me like he was close second in the Grand National and the finishing post was coming up.
    geret wrote: »
    would your friend advise you to claim to be suicidal?
    If that was the only way I could get help, probably.
    geret wrote: »
    was suicide mentioned by the girl before this time?
    Yes, it was mentioned from the start.
    "...she was referred to the Irish Family Planning Association (IFPA), where her pregnancy was confirmed.
    “It was very difficult for me. I cried. I said I am not capable of going through with this. I said I could die because of this... "."


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    #1805
    LashingLady
    Registered Users Posts: 314 ✭✭LashingLady


    Right from the beginning this case highlights the lack of clarity and the deep inadequacies in the current abortion legislation. I would be a supporter of the free choice to terminate a pregnancy up to 12 weeks. I was and am revolted by the clause in the legislation to allow the termination of a pregnancy at any point where there is suicidal ideation. And now the worst potential outcome of that legislation has come true namely the forced delivery of a seriously premature orphan infant.

    And based on today's Irish Times article that poor girl was put through a mill of bureaucracy and barbarbic tests and interrogations to prove that she was suicidal. And now she is left with a ceasarian section scar. I have one of these as a result of my two children. I am incensed for this poor girl.

    And the media circus around this case since the first (very sketchy reports) came out over the weekend only serves for both sides of the debate to exploit and twist the details to suit their agenda.

    What we need is a clear and ambiguous process to allow for early stage termination, with clear information available to patients and doctors so everyone knows where they stand.

    This is a tragic tragic case. Many feared this when the legislation became law and now it has come a reality, and the whole ugly debate will be opened yet again.


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    #1806
    geret
    Registered Users Posts: 100 ✭✭geret


    kylith wrote: »
    Again, we don't know how 'in depth' she talked about it with them and it would be influenced by all sorts of factors such as her relationship to them and their age, among others.

    For example: I may mention to a family friend that I have a UTI, I am unlikely to tell anyone but my closest friend that I got it because my boyfriend was riding me like he was close second in the Grand National and the finishing post was coming up.


    If that was the only way I could get help, probably.


    Yes, it was mentioned from the start.
    "...she was referred to the Irish Family Planning Association (IFPA), where her pregnancy was confirmed.
    “It was very difficult for me. I cried. I said I am not capable of going through with this. I said I could die because of this... "."
    “I said to her, ‘I could die because of this pregnancy. I am prepared to kill myself’.”

    At this stage she was 16 weeks’ pregnant.


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    #1807
    xalot
    Registered Users Posts: 1,097 ✭✭✭xalot


    Maxie26 wrote: »
    All this talk of the rights of the mother and what about the foetus, bunch of cells, baby - whatever pro choice people prefer to call it. Is "it" not entitled to life? What about a pain free abortion? Does "it" receive drugs to help it through the abortion, how do you know it doesnt feel anything, is this baby hated by the pro choice people now that it is born and has survived to spite those who want it dead! What kind of a nation have we become that we are so unfeeling and cruel to the smallest most helpless thing inside its mother, a frightened mother at that, we need to learn to care for all concerned, is that idea incredibly alien to people now, why do we want to hate pro lifers so much when all they want is to save innocent unborn cells, foetus, baby? Does anyone even care how a baby is "terminated", it is not nice, if only pro choicers knew it would make them sick to the stomach, it would be hard to do to an unborn animal, and as a nation we are so eager to fight for animal rights, but not for unborn. Will this child have to grow up in this country feeling hated and unloved by us, because we rather it was aborted before birth, maybe it will live and grow up to be a wonderful human being?

    Your post is incredibly emotive and does not refer to the specific case in hand.

    I can safely say that nobody on this thread HATES the baby in this case. Some hate the way the mother has been treated and everyone, I'm sure, hates any suffering that this poor child will now have to endure.

    The real question is what kind of a nation are we who, when confronted with a vulnerable young woman in terrible distress, pass the responsibility from one department to the next until it is too late for the situation to be resolved without causing irreparable damage to the young woman and a helpless baby.


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    #1808
    geret
    Registered Users Posts: 100 ✭✭geret


    kylith wrote: »
    Again, we don't know how 'in depth' she talked about it with them and it would be influenced by all sorts of factors such as her relationship to them and their age, among others.

    For example: I may mention to a family friend that I have a UTI, I am unlikely to tell anyone but my closest friend that I got it because my boyfriend was riding me like he was close second in the Grand National and the finishing post was coming up.


    If that was the only way I could get help, probably.


    Yes, it was mentioned from the start.
    "...she was referred to the Irish Family Planning Association (IFPA), where her pregnancy was confirmed.
    “It was very difficult for me. I cried. I said I am not capable of going through with this. I said I could die because of this... "."
    “I said to her, ‘I could die because of this pregnancy. I am prepared to kill myself’.”

    At this stage she was 16 weeks’ pregnant. "



    finish the quote and you will see that was not at the "start"


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    #1809
    Ralphdejones
    Closed Accounts Posts: 581 ✭✭✭Ralphdejones


    kylith wrote: »
    "...she was referred to the Irish Family Planning AssociationIrish Family Planning Association (IFPA), where her pregnancy was confirmed.
    “It was very difficult for me. I cried. I said I am not capable of going through with this. I said I could die because of this... "."

    There is some word dodging going on there, claiming you could die from something is not being suicidal. Why did the IFPA not refer her to a GP if she was threatening suicide ?


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    #1810
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Akrasia wrote: »
    I agree,
    The system worked as intended once she got in the door, but the door was hidden from this woman and will be hidden from other vulnerable women when they need it most.
    Indeed. The existence of this loophole makes that a problem. Any person in the health sector who suggested to a patient that "you can get an abortion if you're suicidal" without the patient presenting as suicidal, will quickly find themselves in trouble. That's the gaping hole in this; only those aware of the loophole can avail of it. Those who qualify (and who need to make use of it) are least likely to be aware of it. And health professionals are by implication prevented from making women aware of it.
    None of the other social services recognised the symptoms of suicidal ideation before she requested it herself, despite the fact that she was previously interrupted in the act of attempting suicide.
    Interrupted by whom, though? Perhaps I'm missing some facts because I haven't been following this very closely. Was she found unconscious and near death by a friend, or did someone just knock on her door five minutes beforehand, completely unaware of what she had been planning to do?

    That's the big gap which needs answers here - why was there an 8-week gap between attempting suicide and presenting to the health services?


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    #1811
    Maxie26
    Registered Users Posts: 7 ✭Maxie26


    where did i say that i didnt have compassion for her, why cant you have compassion for unborn? Rape is wrong, where is the rapist, why is he not being punished, the mother has suffered, but its not this babys fault, is it? would you rather this baby was dead or should it go around with a label " my mother has suffered because i am a result of rape and i am alive ". If you have no compassion for this poor parentless child how can you have any compassion for its mother? look, im not going to go on an on, it simple, this is a debate about our understanding of human dignity, what it means to be a member of the human family, even though tiny, powerless and unwanted.............


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    #1812
    Frito
    Registered Users Posts: 769 ✭✭✭Frito


    Akrasia wrote: »
    I agree,
    The system worked as intended once she got in the door, but the door was hidden from this woman and will be hidden from other vulnerable women when they need it most.

    The fact of the matter is, she was only referred to the HSE after she was advised to specifically go to a GP and tell her GP that she was suicidal due to rape. None of the other social services recognised the symptoms of suicidal ideation before she requested it herself, despite the fact that she was previously interrupted in the act of attempting suicide.

    I'm not so sure that this system worked well at all.
    I have concerns re the indication for and referral to a panel re assessment of suicidal ideation. I think an opportunity to assess for suicidal ideation was missed by the IFPA at 8 weeks, going by the experience recounted in the IT article.


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    #1813
    kylith
    Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    Maxie26 wrote: »
    I have heard of parents hugging and cuddling their dying babies in their arms, even knowing they only have hours or minutes to live, would you not want to be their for them in their suffering, as a parent?

    And they should absolutely have that choice. BUT those who do not wish to carry a doomed foetus to term and watch their malformed child die gasping should also have a choice - the choice to terminate as soon as the fatal abnormality is discovered and so be spared the pain of watching it die, and the infant the pain of death.


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    #1814
    Maxie26
    Registered Users Posts: 7 ✭Maxie26


    i think its incredible that someone would think that a parent should have a choice on whether they child comfort their child in their hour of need, there is no compassion in this thread, it is worrying that you dont even suggest that the child or potential child should have a say in this!


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    #1815
    takamichinoku
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,110 ✭✭✭takamichinoku


    Maxie26 wrote: »
    Does anyone even care how a baby is "terminated", it is not nice, if only pro choicers knew it would make them sick to the stomach
    I tend to find pro-choice people, in general, seem to have a far better idea how the processes (there's not just one way, "it is not nice" kind of implies you think otherwise) involved works so I have no clue what this "if only..." stuff is about.



    ...and in regards to "I have heard of parents hugging and cuddling their dying babies in their arms", without giving the parent the choice over whether or not to bring a pregnancy with a fatal abnormality to that point, that could easily be an extremely traumatic experience for a parent. Do not see how how an extremely brief patch of time hugging and cuddling a baby that's going through absolute hell would justify forcing a person through several extra weeks of a pregnancy for something which may make the whole experience significantly harder to overcome for the mother.
    The notion of it not being the mother's choice in those kinds of situations baffles me completely.


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    #1816
    Penny Tration
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,687 ✭✭✭✭Penny Tration


    Maxie26 wrote: »
    i think its incredible that someone would think that a parent should have a choice on whether they child comfort their child in their hour of need, there is no compassion in this thread, it is worrying that you dont even suggest that the child or potential child should have a say in this!

    A foetus can't speak so please, explain how it could have a say in this?


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    #1817
    kylith
    Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    geret wrote: »
    “I said to her, ‘I could die because of this pregnancy. I am prepared to kill myself’.”

    At this stage she was 16 weeks’ pregnant.
    geret wrote: »
    “I said to her, ‘I could die because of this pregnancy. I am prepared to kill myself’.”

    At this stage she was 16 weeks’ pregnant. "



    finish the quote and you will see that was not at the "start"

    The part I quoted is what she said when the pregnancy was confirmed at 8 weeks, 4 days gestation. She said she was not capable of going through it, she said she wanted a termination, she said she could die. She was then shown documents that left her believing that the process (to terminate the pregnancy) was under way. It was only when she realised that the IFPA would/could not help her fund it that she went to her GP and was belatedly referred to the HSE.


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    #1818
    kylith
    Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    Maxie26 wrote: »
    i think its incredible that someone would think that a parent should have a choice on whether they child comfort their child in their hour of need, there is no compassion in this thread, it is worrying that you dont even suggest that the child or potential child should have a say in this!
    Wow. Just, wow.

    Would you prefer to watch a child die in pain, or for it never to know pain?


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    #1819
    Maxie26
    Registered Users Posts: 7 ✭Maxie26


    A foetus cant speak, what kind of a statement is that, are you devoid of compassion for these potential babies? all the more reason for people to speak up for them ... they have rights even though they cant talk, newborns cant talk either, should we decide their fate also?


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    #1820
    Morag
    Registered Users Posts: 8,427 ✭✭✭Morag


    Yup I have more concern and compassion for the actual person then a potential baby.
    She should have been legally able to have a medical abortion when she first requested one at 8 weeks.


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    #1821
    Maxie26
    Registered Users Posts: 7 ✭Maxie26


    are you refering to the unborn or the born, as you are suggesting with your last statement that a born child shouldnt know pain?


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    #1822
    ec18
    Registered Users Posts: 2,726 ✭✭✭ec18


    Can we just get rid of all this and make abortions legal now? It's going to happen eventually....


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    #1823
    NuMarvel
    Registered Users Posts: 3,279 ✭✭✭NuMarvel


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    There is some word dodging going on there, claiming you could die from something is not being suicidal. Why did the IFPA not refer her to a GP if she was threatening suicide ?

    In the context of a country where a woman has a right to an abortion if her life is at risk, someone saying she could die because of her pregnancy should have set alarm bells off, even if she didn't specify what the threat to her life was.


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    #1824
    Maxie26
    Registered Users Posts: 7 ✭Maxie26


    well morag, at least you have the guts to admit that you prefer mothers rights to that of babies!


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    #1825
    humanji
    Registered Users Posts: 19,976 ✭✭✭✭humanji


    Maxie26 wrote: »
    are you refering to the unborn or the born, as you are suggesting with your last statement that a born child shouldnt know pain?
    Right, you can stop all this now. This isn't a thread about whether abortion is good or bad or nice or evil. It's about a specific case and the laws of the land. Discuss the case and not whether or not you agree with abortion. That goes for everyone.


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    #1826
    Ralphdejones
    Closed Accounts Posts: 581 ✭✭✭Ralphdejones


    NuMarvel wrote: »
    In the context of a country where a woman has a right to an abortion if her life is at risk, someone saying she could die because of her pregnancy should have set alarm bells off, even if she didn't specify what the threat to her life was.

    Why did the IFPA not refer her to a GP ?


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    #1827
    takamichinoku
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,110 ✭✭✭takamichinoku


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    Why did the IFPA not refer her to a GP ?
    I'm confused about this too, it doesn't seem to be covered in anything I've read so far. Am I missing something?


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    #1828
    Morag
    Registered Users Posts: 8,427 ✭✭✭Morag


    NuMarvel wrote: »
    In the context of a country where a woman has a right to an abortion if her life is at risk, someone saying she could die because of her pregnancy should have set alarm bells off, even if she didn't specify what the threat to her life was.

    The guidelines for what drs are to do in these cases have not actually been published.

    We have a law which is subjugated by the 8th amendment to our constitution and no ways for medical staff to properly implement it.

    I had wondered last month why there was stuff about the guidelines being mentioned but they had not been sent out to medical professionals, clearly a interm set were put in place for the panel who saw this teenager.


    If she had of been not as isolated, I like to think that word would have gotten to her about the abortion support network or women on web.
    The under ground railway which Irish women have used to get abortions has not included migrant women, mostly due to the secrecy it has had to operate under.


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    #1829
    Morag
    Registered Users Posts: 8,427 ✭✭✭Morag


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    Why did the IFPA not refer her to a GP ?

    We don't know if she said she was suicidal to the crises pregnancy counsellors she dealt with.

    Also the IFPA operated in these cases in a very restricted are of law, the 1995 law on abortion information and can not be seen to be encouraging women to have abortions.

    It is not the case were a woman can lie about being suicidal and lo the flood gates open, as some people said during the drafting of the legislation.


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    #1830
    Ralphdejones
    Closed Accounts Posts: 581 ✭✭✭Ralphdejones


    Morag wrote: »
    We don't know if she said she was suicidal to the crises pregnancy counsellors she dealt with.

    Also the IFPA operated in these cases in a very restricted are of law, the 1995 law on abortion information and can not be seen to be encouraging women to have abortions.

    It is not the case were a woman can lie about being suicidal and lo the flood gates open, as some people said during the drafting of the legislation.

    But posters were claiming she was suicidal from the start.

    Why would the IFPA not refer someone to a GP for medical advice when they present with a medical problem ?


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    #1831
    xalot
    Registered Users Posts: 1,097 ✭✭✭xalot


    Maxie26 wrote: »
    It baffles me why you wouldnt want to spend what little time you have with your child, would you do it to a child that was older, a six year old perhaps, yes it is a choice for the parents, but it is a strange cruel world that allows a parent to decide their childs fate, when that child relies on its parents for comfort, solice in their time of need, can no one understand where im coming from, i am in no way saying that parents shouldnt have rights, just where do the childs rights come in? Are you saying that parents who decide to have a child with a disability are cruel to let them live, I'm sorry but that is INSULTING to those parents with children with DISABILITIES and life long illness that may cut they lives short.

    Your post is completely off topic. This is not a thread about disability. It is about a rape victim who requested an abortion and was passed from department to department, eventually told she could have one and then told she could not and subsequently was forced into having a premature baby delivered by C section. What about the rights of the woman in this case?

    You keep discussing the right of a mother to hold her ill baby. The woman in this case never wanted a baby, she was the victim of rape and while that is not the baby's fault you cannot judge a woman for not being able to bond with/comfort a baby that will only remind her of her assault at the hands of her rapist and the second violation of being forced to carry a pregnancy to term. It should not be forgotten that the woman in this case was only a child herself. How she coped is beyond me.


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