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woman refused abortion - Mod Note in first post.

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    #1832
    Morag
    Registered Users Posts: 8,427 ✭✭✭Morag


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    Why would the IFPA not refer someone to a GP for medical advice when they present with a medical problem ?

    They do, but like I said we don't know what was said to her or her to them.

    It does seem like they did their best to help her but explained having been raped was not enough to be granted the right to an abortion here and as she had no means to pay for an abortion to the UK, they could not help her.

    The reports also say english is not her first language and it can be hard enough to communicate normally never mind when that distressed.


    This happens to women all over the country, for ever 10 women a day that travels there are women who don't' have the means to do so and so resort to breaking the law or remaining pregnant.


    the IFPA can only give information they can't ring and book appointments, they can't pay for the costs of travelling or clinics costs.

    http://www.rte.ie/radio1/news-at-one/programmes/2014/0819/638102-news-at-one-tuesday-19-august-2014/?clipid=1654712


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    #1833
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    But posters were claiming she was suicidal from the start.

    Why would the IFPA not refer someone to a GP for medical advice when they present with a medical problem ?

    Do GPs form part of the IFPA? Does it have one on staff?
    If the woman received no prenatal care surkey this wasn't looking after her or the unborn medically speaking.


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    #1834
    Ralphdejones
    Closed Accounts Posts: 581 ✭✭✭Ralphdejones


    kylith wrote: »
    The part I quoted is what she said when the pregnancy was confirmed at 8 weeks, 4 days gestation. She said she was not capable of going through it, she said she wanted a termination, she said she could die.

    Why did the IFPA not refer her to a GP immediately for medical advice ?

    It was 8 weeks later, and 16 weeks into the pregnancy, when a friend advised her to attend a GP and say she was suicidal that she did.


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    #1835
    Ralphdejones
    Closed Accounts Posts: 581 ✭✭✭Ralphdejones


    lazygal wrote: »
    Do GPs form part of the IFPA? Does it have one on staff?

    I don't know, do you need to have a GP on staff before you can advise someone to see one ?

    8 weeks later, her friend advised her at 16 weeks to see a GP and tell them she was suicidal.


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    #1836
    Funnyonion79
    Registered Users Posts: 569 ✭✭✭Funnyonion79


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    A suicidal mother and her child are alive today instead of being dead.
    Apparently this is a bad outcome for the pro abortion lobby.

    That's correct - as I already stated in my previous reply to you, for the myriad of reasons I painstakingly listed. Can you please comment on those reasons and state why you think any of those reasons validate why you think differently?


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    #1837
    Morag
    Registered Users Posts: 8,427 ✭✭✭Morag


    lazygal wrote: »
    Do GPs form part of the IFPA? Does it have one on staff?
    If the woman received no prenatal care surkey this wasn't looking after her or the unborn medically speaking.

    They do have gps on staff, but pre natal care is not done by them.
    She didn't want Prenatal care.


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    #1838
    xalot
    Registered Users Posts: 1,097 ✭✭✭xalot


    lazygal wrote: »
    Do GPs form part of the IFPA? Does it have one on staff?
    If the woman received no prenatal care surkey this wasn't looking after her or the unborn medically speaking.

    The IFPA in Dublin 1 definitely have a GP on staff, I used to get my contraceptive prescriptions from him.

    I'm concerned (and purely speculating) that there may have been a language barrier issue which did not help the situation.


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    #1839
    kylith
    Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    Why did the IFPA not refer her to a GP immediately for medical advice ?

    It was 8 weeks later, and 16 weeks into the pregnancy, when a friend advised her to attend a GP and say she was suicidal that she did.

    That is a question you would have to ask the IFPA.


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    #1840
    takamichinoku
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,110 ✭✭✭takamichinoku


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    It was 8 weeks later, and 16 weeks into the pregnancy, when a friend advised her to attend a GP and say she was suicidal that she did.
    ...found an avenue to push the "she was pretending to be suicidal" argument, eh? :rolleyes:


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    #1841
    Ralphdejones
    Closed Accounts Posts: 581 ✭✭✭Ralphdejones


    takamichinoku wrote: »
    ...found an avenue to push the "she was pretending to be suicidal" argument, eh? :rolleyes:

    No, I'm asking why the IFPA did not refer her to a GP at 8 weeks, and it was 16 weeks before she got to see one, thanks to her friend.


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    #1842
    Ralphdejones
    Closed Accounts Posts: 581 ✭✭✭Ralphdejones


    kylith wrote: »
    That is a question you would have to ask the IFPA.

    And why is no one in the media asking the IFPA that ?


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    #1843
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    No, I'm asking why the IFPA did not refer her to a GP at 8 weeks, and it was 16 weeks before she got to see one, thanks to her friend.


    Why are you asking the same question when nobody here can know the answer?


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    #1844
    Morag
    Registered Users Posts: 8,427 ✭✭✭Morag


    kylith wrote: »
    That is a question you would have to ask the IFPA.

    Which due to client confidentially they won't comment.

    There are curently no HSE guidelines for any crises pregnancy counsellors (in the services the HSE pays for) for when a woman who want an abortion says they will commit suicide.

    They have not put in place after the passing of the law last summer.
    They are parts of the process which are not in place yet.


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    #1845
    Morag
    Registered Users Posts: 8,427 ✭✭✭Morag


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    And why is no one in the media asking the IFPA that ?

    eh if you listened to the radio interview I just linked to you'd hear it being asked.

    http://www.rte.ie/radio1/news-at-one/programmes/2014/0819/638102-news-at-one-tuesday-19-august-2014/?clipid=1654712


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    #1846
    Ralphdejones
    Closed Accounts Posts: 581 ✭✭✭Ralphdejones


    Nodin wrote: »
    Why are you asking the same question when nobody here can know the answer?

    Because someone here might know the answer.
    Why does anyone ask a question here ?
    Why is this a question that should not be asked ?


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    #1847
    Nanazolie
    Registered Users Posts: 867 ✭✭✭Nanazolie


    apologies if that question has already been answered. What happens to the baby when it is born so early? If he/she has significant disabilities, I doubt very much anyone will want to adopt him/her. Does it mean a life in the care of the HSE?

    I have no opinion on this specific case. If the girl was really raped, then my sympathy goes to her, I don't think I would have been able to carry a child full term in this case. I guess we can always have a definite opinion when we are not the person living this situation


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    #1848
    Morag
    Registered Users Posts: 8,427 ✭✭✭Morag


    Nodin wrote: »
    Why are you asking the same question when nobody here can know the answer?

    Some people who are anti abortion are also anti the IFPA and seek to undermine them has much as possible.


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    #1849
    Ralphdejones
    Closed Accounts Posts: 581 ✭✭✭Ralphdejones


    Morag wrote: »
    eh if you listened to the radio interview I just linked to you'd hear it being asked.

    What was the IFPA's answer then ?


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    #1850
    Morag
    Registered Users Posts: 8,427 ✭✭✭Morag


    Nanazolie wrote: »
    apologies if that question has already been answered. What happens to the baby when it is born so early? If he/she has significant disabilities, I doubt very much anyone will want to adopt him/her. Does it mean a life in the care of the HSE?

    Yes that is if the child is allowed to stay in the country and s/he is not an Irish citizen.


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    #1851
    Morag
    Registered Users Posts: 8,427 ✭✭✭Morag


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    What was the IFPA's answer then ?

    if you want to know go listen to it.


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    #1852
    Akrasia
    Registered Users Posts: 22,424 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Maxie26 wrote: »
    So we should just "put down" then, and give no chance, what is wrong with people with this attitude, no one knows for sure if a baby can live or not, or for how long if there is something wrong, can we not love what is not perfect, we all have to suffer sooner or later, does suffering at any age mean putting down, should we do this when our child is gets sick later in life, if my child gets cancer and suffers should i decide to put him or her to sleep so as not to be a bother to me to watch it suffer? come on ... what is your real problem with idea of live and let live? I have heard of parents hugging and cuddling their dying babies in their arms, even knowing they only have hours or minutes to live, would you not want to be their for them in their suffering, as a parent? You would do it if they were born!
    The parents should have a choice. if they want to continue with the pregnancy for those few short moments, that's up to them, but forcing a mother to carry the baby against her will, all the while knowing that the baby will experience nothing but pain and death is a torture I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy

    Most decent people see suffering as a negative thing which should be avoided.

    Only religion makes suffering a virtue.


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    #1853
    Ralphdejones
    Closed Accounts Posts: 581 ✭✭✭Ralphdejones


    Morag wrote: »
    if you want to know go listen to it.

    Do you know their answer ?


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    #1854
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    Why did the IFPA not refer her to a GP immediately for medical advice ?
    I suspect, as others seem to suspect, that communications difficulties meant that the IFPA did not pick up on the possibility that she was prepared to commit suicide. "I could die" is in fact a fear expressed by quite a lot of women in crisis pregnancies, it is very difficult to say this far after the fact what exactly was said in her appointments, and more importantly what was heard by the other parties in her appointments.
    It was 8 weeks later, and 16 weeks into the pregnancy, when a friend advised her to attend a GP and say she was suicidal that she did.
    Again, communications difficulties. You're in a strange country with limited language, but as far as you can determine, you've been told that you can only obtain an abortion if you can stump up €1,500.
    You're trapped, it's not like you can go back to your home country, you're terrified about what members of your own community might think, see no other option but to end it all. But you don't go through with it.

    It's only when you reach an absolute breaking point that you lean on a shoulder to cry and tell them how you'd rather die than carry this pregnancy to term, and this person has the wherewithall to tell you to go to a doctor.

    You seem to be implying that she was told, "Ah shure just tell them you're suicidal and they'll sort it for you". Yet, the professionals who assessed her agreed she was suicidal. So we know she wasn't trying to con the system.


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    #1855
    Ralphdejones
    Closed Accounts Posts: 581 ✭✭✭Ralphdejones


    seamus wrote: »
    I suspect, as others seem to suspect, that communications difficulties meant that the IFPA did not pick up on the possibility that she was prepared to commit suicide. "I could die" is in fact a fear expressed by quite a lot of women in crisis pregnancies, it is very difficult to say this far after the fact what exactly was said in her appointments, and more importantly what was heard by the other parties in her appointments. Again, communications difficulties. You're in a strange country with limited language, but as far as you can determine, you've been told that you can only obtain an abortion if you can stump up €1,500.
    You're trapped, it's not like you can go back to your home country, you're terrified about what members of your own community might think, see no other option but to end it all. But you don't go through with it.

    It's only when you reach an absolute breaking point that you lean on a shoulder to cry and tell them how you'd rather die than carry this pregnancy to term, and this person has the wherewithall to tell you to go to a doctor.

    Why do you need to be claiming sucide to be advised to see a GP ?
    Why on earth would the IFPA not advise her to see a GP for medical advice ?


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    #1856
    Morag
    Registered Users Posts: 8,427 ✭✭✭Morag


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    Do you know their answer ?

    You are the one who wants to know, so go listen to the interview.


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    #1857
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    But posters were claiming she was suicidal from the start.

    Why would the IFPA not refer someone to a GP for medical advice when they present with a medical problem ?

    The difficulties with communication have already been listed.

    However, there is another more sinister reason for this. The IFPA have been hampered and hindered in their work by threats of legal action from fringe pro-life groups, people who have no understanding of pregnancy, rape or the trauma of these events.


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    #1858
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    Why do you need to be claiming sucide to be advised to see a GP ?
    Why on earth would the IFPA not advise her to see a GP for medical advice ?
    Maybe they did. She didn't want the pregnancy, so it would seem counterintuitive to expect her to go and see a GP about it.

    A surprising amount of women don't see any medical professionals for the entire duration of their pregnancy for a wide variety of reasons. Do you find it unbelievable that she didn't see one until it became clear to her that seeing one might potentially release her from her suffering?


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    #1859
    Nanazolie
    Registered Users Posts: 867 ✭✭✭Nanazolie


    Morag wrote: »
    Yes that is if the child is allowed to stay in the country and s/he is not an Irish citizen.

    But would the child not have the right to stay considering that his early birth was a consequence of Irish legislation? Not sure anyone can answer this yet, it's the first case of its kind, isn't it?


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    #1860
    Ralphdejones
    Closed Accounts Posts: 581 ✭✭✭Ralphdejones


    Morag wrote: »
    You are the one who wants to know, so go listen to the interview.

    I have.

    The IFPA stated in the interview that they can and do refer people to GP's, but refused to say why they did not do so in this case, at 8 weeks.

    Her friend told her to go to a GP when she was at 16 weeks.

    The HSE were not informed untill she was at 20 weeks.


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    #1861
    Morag
    Registered Users Posts: 8,427 ✭✭✭Morag


    Nanazolie wrote: »
    But would the child not have the right to stay considering that his early birth was a consequence of Irish legislation? Not sure anyone can answer this yet, it's the first case of its kind, isn't it?

    Yes it is, but that doesn't change the citizen status of the child.


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