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woman refused abortion - Mod Note in first post.

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    #1922
    Frito
    Registered Users Posts: 769 ✭✭✭Frito


    RobertKK wrote: »
    Did the infection cause the miscarriage.


    Or did the miscarriage cause the infection?


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    #1923
    B0jangles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,951 ✭✭✭B0jangles


    RobertKK wrote: »
    Nah, what is clear is when a something tragic happens, pro-choice people are like flies to a dead carcase looking to use it for their own means, as in use the tragedy for the purpose of getting the laws changed to make it easier to kill the unborn in this and other cases.

    Ivana Bacik was on the TV/radio arguing not enough unborn are being killed and we need to remove the protection of life to the unborn so laws can be changed so more of the unborn can be killed.

    Prochoice are always using specific cases to try and benefit from the tragedy.
    Making it easier to kill the unborn is seen somehow as a success.

    Staggering hypocrisy, even for you Robert - only yesterday you were using the girl at the centre of the C case to back up your point of view.


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    #1924
    RobertKK
    Registered Users Posts: 33,749 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    Nodin wrote: »
    Simplistic nonsense. The notion is to allow abortions for those women who want them, not have some 'abortions for all, miniature flags for some' festival.

    Wow, no regard for human life. Very simplistic view you have of human life.
    We can all say the other view is simplistic.


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    #1925
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    RobertKK wrote: »
    Not when one is getting the wrong antibiotic for over 2 days and they being totally ineffective.
    RobertKK wrote: »
    Did the infection cause the miscarriage.
    RobertKK wrote: »
    Regulations were not followed.

    Where do you get the soundbites and the information from?

    Is there some secret pro-life website that gives you all this insider information?


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    #1926
    efb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 35,514 ✭✭✭✭efb


    RobertKK wrote: »
    Did the infection cause the miscarriage.

    My understating us she developed the infection while miscarrying.

    Much likelier to develop infection while miscarrying- it should have been ended sooner


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    #1927
    RobertKK
    Registered Users Posts: 33,749 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    B0jangles wrote: »
    Staggering hypocrisy, even for you Robert - only yesterday you were using the girl at the centre of the C case to back up your point of view.

    She went to the media to say she was given an abortion and she thought the baby would be alive.
    She was called a liar on this forum by at least one prochoice person.


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    #1928
    Muise...
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,512 ✭✭✭Muise...


    RobertKK wrote: »
    Why does abortion happen in thin air and no woman involved?

    I have mentioned many previous times in this thread.

    Do you mention the unborn life that is killed in an abortion and how his or her future is wiped out when discussing it as a woman's right?

    You seem to treat it as if it does happen in thin air with no woman involved Robert; you can't grasp that for women who have abortions other considerations have more weight than your abstract and obsessive hagiography of the foetus.


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    #1929
    RobertKK
    Registered Users Posts: 33,749 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    efb wrote: »
    My understating us she developed the infection while miscarrying.

    Much likelier to develop infection while miscarrying- it should have been ended sooner

    Isn't that why she was in hospital?


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    #1930
    Piliger
    Registered Users Posts: 6,741 ✭✭✭Piliger


    RobertKK wrote: »
    Wow, no regard for human life. Very simplistic view you have of human life.
    We can all say the other view is simplistic.

    Yes we can. The difference is one side wants to impose their belief on the rest.


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    #1931
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    RobertKK wrote: »
    Wow, no regard for human life.

    Plenty for fully formed human life.


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    #1932
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    RobertKK wrote: »
    She went to the media to say she was given an abortion and she thought the baby would be alive.
    She was called a liar on this forum by at least one prochoice person.


    Who called her a Liar?


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    #1933
    B0jangles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,951 ✭✭✭B0jangles


    RobertKK wrote: »
    She went to the media to say she was given an abortion and she thought the baby would be alive.
    She was called a liar on this forum by at least one prochoice person.

    And you were perfectly happy to quote her and talk about her and use her story to support your point of view, but you castigate the media and the people talking about this latest case because the story this woman is telling does not support your view point.

    Ergo: Staggering. Hypocrisy.


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    #1934
    RobertKK
    Registered Users Posts: 33,749 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    Muise... wrote: »
    You seem to treat it as if it does happen in thin air with no woman involved Robert; you can't grasp that for women who have abortions other considerations have more weight than your abstract and obsessive hagiography of the foetus.

    I recognise two lives involved and both have the humans right of being allowed protection under the constitution.


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    #1935
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    RobertKK wrote: »
    Wow, no regard for human life. Very simplistic view you have of human life.
    We can all say the other view is simplistic.


    This is mad.

    A simplistic childish argument is that abortion is wrong in all circumstances because of the sanctity of the life of the unborn and closes its eyes and ears to the travel to the UK and pretends it either doesn't happen or doesn't matter.

    A more complicated mature argument acknowledges the difficulties faced in crisis preganancies, the difference between born and unborn, the nature of development in the womb, a woman's right to bodily integrity and concludes that abortion in certain circumstances is the best solution and discusses the appropriate criteria (time of pregnancy, reasons, health of mother etc.) for determining the legal framework to allow such abortions


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    #1936
    Piliger
    Registered Users Posts: 6,741 ✭✭✭Piliger


    RobertKK wrote: »
    I recognise two lives involved and both have the humans right of being allowed protection under the constitution.

    And I only see one such life. That's what the issue is about. Those who agree with you want to impose your view on those who disagree.


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    #1937
    RobertKK
    Registered Users Posts: 33,749 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    B0jangles wrote: »
    And you were perfectly happy to quote her and talk about her and use her story to support your point of view, but you castigate the media and the people talking about this latest case because the story this woman is telling does not support your view point.

    Ergo: Staggering. Hypocrisy.

    Yes, I did too when she was on the radio and my comments were read out to her.

    The media is using the current case to push the agenda for more liberal abortions.
    The media didn't create a fuss over the C case as it didn't suit the prochoice people, to the point some prochoice call her a liar.


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    #1938
    efb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 35,514 ✭✭✭✭efb


    RobertKK wrote: »
    Isn't that why she was in hospital?

    And couldn't get the treatment she requested.

    Doctors have to work within the laws however impractical they are


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    #1939
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    RobertKK wrote: »
    The Irish Times is a joke to quote from given it is a propaganda newspaper for liberals.

    ESBL and the type Savita had, has a death rate in the 30% area. Probably still be alive as article says, it is just guessing.

    http://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoints/yourview/savitas-death-may-have-been-due-to-resistant-bacteria-strain-214431.html

    Maybe you would like to give us a list of pre approved sources that we can quote from so we don't upset you when a quote is used from a source you don't like or deem to be unacceptable?


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    #1940
    Muise...
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,512 ✭✭✭Muise...


    RobertKK wrote: »
    I recognise two lives involved and both have the humans right of being allowed protection under the constitution.

    Which, as all these horrendous cases have shown, is an impossible conundrum with devastating consequences when applied to real life. Someone asked you earlier which you would save from a burning hospital, a petrie dish of embryos or a child. You fluffed about facilities and freezers and tried to change the terms of the hypothesis because even you must accept that the rights to life of host and foetus cannot be equal in all cases.


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    #1941
    RobertKK
    Registered Users Posts: 33,749 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    Godge wrote: »
    This is mad.

    A simplistic childish argument is that abortion is wrong in all circumstances because of the sanctity of the life of the unborn and closes its eyes and ears to the travel to the UK and pretends it either doesn't happen or doesn't matter.

    A more complicated mature argument acknowledges the difficulties faced in crisis preganancies, the difference between born and unborn, the nature of development in the womb, a woman's right to bodily integrity and concludes that abortion in certain circumstances is the best solution and discusses the appropriate criteria (time of pregnancy, reasons, health of mother etc.) for determining the legal framework to allow such abortions

    Ethicists linked to Oxford argue parents should be allowed to kill their babies as it is no different to abortion. One can come up with all sort of arguments...

    One can take when it is ok to kill the unborn and make up when it is ok.

    In the current case, at 8 weeks the unborn had a heart beat. Yet some would argue it is just a clump of cells.
    Our hearts have been beating since we were 6 to 7 weeks old in our mother's womb.

    Most abortions are for lifestyle reasons where the baby would get in the way.


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    #1942
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    RobertKK wrote: »
    ........

    Most abortions are for lifestyle reasons where the baby would get in the way.

    Source?


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    #1943
    RobertKK
    Registered Users Posts: 33,749 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    Muise... wrote: »
    Which, as all these horrendous cases have shown, is an impossible conundrum with devastating consequences when applied to real life. Someone asked you earlier which you would save from a burning hospital, a petrie dish of embryos or a child. You fluffed about facilities and freezers and tried to change the terms of the hypothesis because even you must accept that the rights to life of host and foetus cannot be equal in all cases.


    Where do you think the embryos are kept in the hospital?


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    #1944
    efb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 35,514 ✭✭✭✭efb


    RobertKK wrote: »

    Most abortions are for lifestyle reasons where the baby would get in the way.

    Reference for that wild statement?


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    #1945
    Ralphdejones
    Closed Accounts Posts: 581 ✭✭✭Ralphdejones


    Shenshen wrote: »
    I'm not sure it would have been, to be honest.
    My rage here is directed at whoever was responsible for delaying action for so long in the first place.

    She found out she was pregnant at 8 weeks and asked for an abortion - nothing was done.
    She was suicidal at 16 weeks - nothing was done.
    And at 25 weeks she had the baby delivered.

    There are serious questions to answer

    She visited the IFPA at 8 weeks
    She did not get to see a GP untill 16 weeks, when her friend advised her to go
    The HSE were not informed until 20 weeks

    The IFPA claimed in the RTE interview they can refer people to a GP if they want to, but refused to say if they done so in this case or not.

    So either the IFPA failed to refer her to a GP, or she refused to go to one, no one is saying which it was.

    How many abortions have already been carried out under the new current legislation, we don't get to hear as much about them.


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    #1946
    Mountainsandh
    Registered Users Posts: 6,700 ✭✭✭Mountainsandh


    The unborn is just that, a physiological gestational state until the woman gives it life.

    Unborn needs woman to give it life.
    Woman has a right to choose to give life, or not.

    Removing right to life of the unborn = asserting the right of the already living woman to choose if she wants to give life or not.

    Allow more of the unborn to be killed = allow more alive people, namely women, to choose to give life, or not.

    I have no problem with that.

    Alive, fully functioning, conscious : rights.

    Unborn, unformed and far from fully functional (particularly before 12 weeks), unconscious : less rights.

    There has to be a hierarchy here, and although it seems harrowing to some, the physiological logic is the above.


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    #1947
    Muise...
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,512 ✭✭✭Muise...


    RobertKK wrote: »
    Where do you think the embryos are kept in the hospital?

    is that your answer? Changing the terms of the hypothesis again. Good man yourself.


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    #1948
    jimgoose
    Registered Users Posts: 20,177 ✭✭✭✭jimgoose


    Muise... wrote: »
    Which, as all these horrendous cases have shown, is an impossible conundrum with devastating consequences when applied to real life. Someone asked you earlier which you would save from a burning hospital, a petrie dish of embryos or a child. You fluffed about facilities and freezers and tried to change the terms of the hypothesis because even you must accept that the rights to life of host and foetus cannot be equal in all cases.

    Correct indeed. In simple, Borg Machine, cave-man terms, a healthy woman can always have another go if a particular pregnancy proves inordinately dangerous. Said woman may well also have other young at home expecting her back.


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    #1949
    RobertKK
    Registered Users Posts: 33,749 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    Nodin wrote: »
    Source?

    http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/oct/24/politics.topstories3

    I used the liberal Guardian so not to offend pro-choice...

    Lord Stgeele who brought in abortion laws to Britain.
    Lord Steel said: "I accept that there is a mood now which is that if things go wrong you can get an abortion, and it is irresponsible, really. I think people should be a bit more responsible in their activities, and in particular in the use of contraception."


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    #1950
    RobertKK
    Registered Users Posts: 33,749 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    Muise... wrote: »
    is that your answer? Changing the terms of the hypothesis again. Good man yourself.

    I didn't, it is not my problem if you only want to see what you want to see or in the case of the unborn not see what you don't want to see.


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    #1951
    Calina
    Registered Users Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Calina


    RobertKK wrote: »
    Most abortions are for lifestyle reasons where the baby would get in the way.

    I think that's a massive over simplification bearing in mind the impact of the arrival of children.

    I'd also add that it is none of your business what motivates people to seek an abortion as you don't get to make the decision for them in the grand scheme of things; you don't even know them.

    In the case under consideration, you need to acknowledge that the woman requested an abortion at 8 weeks. She's also significantly more au fait with her life conditions at that time than you are.

    Life is not binary. It is not simple. You are maybe lucky that you can see it exactly in terms of right and wrong; in the real world, there are generally many, many shades of gray. But you should not assume everyone is as lucky to see the world as bluntly as you do.


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