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woman refused abortion - Mod Note in first post.

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    #1952
    efb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 35,514 ✭✭✭✭efb


    RobertKK wrote: »
    http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/oct/24/politics.topstories3

    I used the liberal Guardian so not to offend pro-choice...

    Lord Stgeele who brought in abortion laws to Britain.

    So that's an opinion not fact


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    #1953
    B0jangles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,951 ✭✭✭B0jangles


    RobertKK wrote: »
    http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/oct/24/politics.topstories3

    I used the liberal Guardian so not to offend pro-choice...

    Lord Stgeele who brought in abortion laws to Britain.


    Unless Lord Steele carried out a nationwide study on the reasons women have abortions before making that remark, then his statement is as much of as baseless claim as your was.


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    #1954
    RobertKK
    Registered Users Posts: 33,749 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    efb wrote: »
    Reference for that wild statement?

    It is not a wild statement.


    http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/oct/24/politics.topstories3
    Lord Steel, architect of the 1967 Abortion Act, says today that abortion is being used as a form of contraception in Britain and admits he never anticipated "anything like" the current number of terminations when leading the campaign for reform.The Liberal Democrat peer, whose bill legalising abortion in certain circumstances marks its 40th anniversary on Saturday, says an "irresponsible" mood has emerged in which women feel they can turn to abortion "if things go wrong".
    "Everybody can agree that there are too many abortions," he says in an interview in today's Guardian, calling for better sex education and access to contraceptive advice and a debate over sexual morality to help bring the numbers down.


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    #1955
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    RobertKK wrote: »

    I used the liberal Guardian so not to offend pro-choice...

    Lord Stgeele who brought in abortion laws to Britain.

    That doesn't say what you claimed.
    Most abortions are for lifestyle reasons where the baby would get in the way.

    Why are you stating things you can't back up?


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    #1956
    Ralphdejones
    Closed Accounts Posts: 581 ✭✭✭Ralphdejones


    B0jangles wrote: »
    Unless Lord Steele carried out a nationwide study on the reasons women have abortions before making that remark, then his statement is as much of as baseless claim as your was.

    90% of abortions in the UK are not for medical reasons


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    #1957
    Muise...
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,512 ✭✭✭Muise...


    RobertKK wrote: »
    I didn't, it is not my problem if you only want to see what you want to see or in the case of the unborn not see what you don't want to see.

    Yeah, you did. You won't answer which you would save -an embryo ex-utero or a child. Maybe you can't see it.


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    #1958
    Calina
    Registered Users Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Calina


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    90% of abortions in the UK are not for medical reasons

    Citation please.


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    #1959
    efb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 35,514 ✭✭✭✭efb


    Are you against use of artificial contraception, and secondly the MAP?


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    #1960
    Aniya Stale Ham
    Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ Aniya Stale Ham


    The opinion of Lord Steel ( who admittedly was a sponsor of an abortion act almost 50 years ago) isn't really that valid as a source.

    It's an interesting opinion of course. But really doesn't really qualify your statement at all.

    Kind of like the letter to the editor linked earlier RE: Savita


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    #1961
    RobertKK
    Registered Users Posts: 33,749 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    B0jangles wrote: »
    Unless Lord Steele carried out a nationwide study on the reasons women have abortions before making that remark, then his statement is as much of as baseless claim as your was.

    It must be all birth defects, rapes, cleft lips, down syndrome, wrong sex, sure what would the person who introduced abortion know...


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    #1962
    Aniya Stale Ham
    Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ Aniya Stale Ham


    RobertKK wrote: »
    It must be all birth defects, rapes, cleft lips, down syndrome, wrong sex, sure what would the person who introduced abortion know...

    Can you expand on what you believe that they might know that the average joe does not?

    Do you believe that sponsors of bills get individual breakdowns on an annual basis of the ramifications and results of those bills? Even when they are no longer in government, or in fact working.


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    #1963
    RobertKK
    Registered Users Posts: 33,749 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    Muise... wrote: »
    Yeah, you did. You won't answer which you would save -an embryo ex-utero or a child. Maybe you can't see it.

    I did, the babies and you think moving embryos into a building on fire with high heat doesn't have consequences?
    Think science...


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    #1964
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Deleted User wrote: »
    The opinion of Lord Steel ( who admittedly the sponsor of an abortion act almost 50 years ago) isn't really that valid as a source.

    It's an interesting opinion of course. But really doesn't really qualify your statement at all.

    Kind of like the letter to the editor linked earlier RE: Savita

    It's a fine example of selective quoting. For instance in the same article -


    "Lord Steel, who endured threats of violence and sacks of hate mail when pushing through his private member's bill as a young MP 40 years ago, makes clear he has "no regrets" over the landmark legislation, and does not regard restricting access to abortion as the answer to the rising number of terminations."

    Robert has totally misrepresented this interview before, if I recall correctly.


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    #1965
    efb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 35,514 ✭✭✭✭efb


    The NHS counter your statement with fact:
    http://www.nhs.uk/news/2014/06June/Pages/career-girl-lifestyle-abortions-rise.aspx


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    #1966
    paddy ocon
    Registered Users Posts: 128 ✭✭paddy ocon


    This story is just awful but I am not shocked. I am not surprized. This is the standard of care, compassion, empathy, treatment of Irish women and has always been.

    I myself had a termination for a fatal foetal abnormaility. It was a harrowing time for me and my family and something I will never ever forgive this country for.
    Our baby was so wanted so planned and so very much loved. There was no way I was going to allow my daughter to be born in pain and agony for her just to die.
    I was not going to allow her to be born for my own solace.

    Some of the statements and comments on this thread make me sick to my stomach. The lack of such empathy and kindness is unreal. So ironic where that comes from too.

    I really hope this girl gets all the help she needs and that the baby makes a full recovery.

    Everyone needs to stand up and shout out, that as a country we have to stop torturing our women. And the men also that feel the pin of travelling.

    Just to add that since we lost our daughter to a fatal abnormality I have gone to have another daughter who has medical issues including a cleft palate. Our issues are one of FFA and not special needs.
    Sorry for going off topic


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    #1967
    Aniya Stale Ham
    Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ Aniya Stale Ham


    efb wrote: »
    The NHS counter your statement with fact:
    http://www.nhs.uk/news/2014/06June/Pages/career-girl-lifestyle-abortions-rise.aspx

    These are very liberal facts from the intensely liberal NHS you are quoting.


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    #1968
    Muise...
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,512 ✭✭✭Muise...


    RobertKK wrote: »
    I did, the babies and you think moving embryos into a building on fire with high heat doesn't have consequences?
    Think science...

    The question is which you would save. So you'd save the child and furthermore you'd nitpick the laws of thermodynamics into a hypothetical question, is it?


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    #1969
    efb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 35,514 ✭✭✭✭efb


    RobertKK wrote: »
    It must be all birth defects, rapes, cleft lips, down syndrome, wrong sex, sure what would the person who introduced abortion know...

    The NHS know see the link
    http://www.nhs.uk/news/2014/06June/Pages/career-girl-lifestyle-abortions-rise.aspx


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    #1970
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Deleted User wrote: »
    These are very liberal facts from the intensely liberal NHS you are quoting.


    Probably full of liberal Irish Times Lezbeen aborters.


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    #1971
    Muise...
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,512 ✭✭✭Muise...


    efb wrote: »
    The NHS know see the link
    http://www.nhs.uk/news/2014/06June/Pages/career-girl-lifestyle-abortions-rise.aspx

    thanks for that!

    Kinda telling in the Mail/Telegraph headlines quoted that people with careers are considered to have lives, while "career-girls" have "lifestyles" - their professions and hard work and tough decisions being on a par with their choice of handbag...


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    #1972
    RobertKK
    Registered Users Posts: 33,749 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    efb wrote: »
    The NHS counter your statement with fact:
    http://www.nhs.uk/news/2014/06June/Pages/career-girl-lifestyle-abortions-rise.aspx

    Wrong, it is under mental health grounds that has allowed abortion on demand in the England.
    You don't have to be deemed suicidal as is the case here.

    The bar in England is set at the lowest possible position to allow abortions upto 24 weeks.


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    #1973
    efb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 35,514 ✭✭✭✭efb


    Muise... wrote: »
    thanks for that!

    Kinda telling in the headlines quoted that people with careers are considered to have lives, while "career-girls" have "lifestyles" - their professions and hard work and tough decisions being on a par with their choice of handbag...

    By the Mail and Telegraph who peddled that nonsense


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    #1974
    eeepaulo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,323 ✭✭✭eeepaulo


    Calina wrote: »
    Citation please.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/319460/Abortion_Statistics__England_and_Wales_2013.pdf

    In 2013, the vast majority (97%; 180,680) of abortions were undertaken under ground C. A further 1% (1,726) under ground D, a similar proportion was carried out under ground E (1%; 2,732). Grounds A and B together accounted for about a tenth of one per cent of abortions (192). The proportion of ground C abortions has risen steadily with a corresponding reduction in ground D cases (See Table 3a.ii).


    Ground C the pregnancy has not exceeded its twenty-fourth week and that the continuance of the pregnancy would involve risk, greater than if the pregnancy were terminated, of injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman (section 1(1)(a))


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    #1975
    Muise...
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,512 ✭✭✭Muise...


    efb wrote: »
    By the Mail and Telegraph who peddled that nonsense

    yes - I should have been clearer.


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    #1976
    efb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 35,514 ✭✭✭✭efb


    The Department of Health report provides us with facts only, not explanations. It does not discuss the possibilities for the changes in trends seen, and all media reports of "career girl" or "lifestyle" abortions suggesting abortion is sometimes used as a method of contraception are pure speculation only, with no foundation in this report.

    NO FOUNDATION IN THIS REPORT RE LIFESTYLE CHOICES!!!


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    #1977
    RobertKK
    Registered Users Posts: 33,749 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    Muise... wrote: »
    The question is which you would save. So you'd save the child and furthermore you'd nitpick the laws of thermodynamics into a hypothetical question, is it?


    Yes, wouldn't one be stupid removing things from a freezer when there is a fire given it would cause a thaw to happen faster.


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    #1978
    jimgoose
    Registered Users Posts: 20,177 ✭✭✭✭jimgoose


    RobertKK wrote: »
    Yes, wouldn't one be stupid removing things from a freezer when there is a fire given it would cause a thaw to happen faster.

    To be perfectly straight with you, I think you're a misogynistic lunatic.


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    #1979
    Muise...
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,512 ✭✭✭Muise...


    RobertKK wrote: »
    Yes, wouldn't one be stupid removing things from a freezer when there is a fire given it would cause a thaw to happen faster.

    So your answer has nothing at all to do with the prioritising of a living child over a blob? No, you found a loophole in the hypothesis and you're going to sneak your way out, completely unnoticed...


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    #1980
    Calina
    Registered Users Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Calina


    eeepaulo wrote: »
    https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/319460/Abortion_Statistics__England_and_Wales_2013.pdf

    In 2013, the vast majority (97%; 180,680) of abortions were undertaken under ground C. A further 1% (1,726) under ground D, a similar proportion was carried out under ground E (1%; 2,732). Grounds A and B together accounted for about a tenth of one per cent of abortions (192). The proportion of ground C abortions has risen steadily with a corresponding reduction in ground D cases (See Table 3a.ii).


    Ground C the pregnancy has not exceeded its twenty-fourth week and that the continuance of the pregnancy would involve risk, greater than if the pregnancy were terminated, of injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman (section 1(1)(a))

    I don't believe that necessarily backs up the assertion for which I requested a citation unless you're implying lifestyle reasons = physical mental health reasons?


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    #1981
    eeepaulo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,323 ✭✭✭eeepaulo


    efb wrote: »
    The Department of Health report provides us with facts only, not explanations. It does not discuss the possibilities for the changes in trends seen, and all media reports of "career girl" or "lifestyle" abortions suggesting abortion is sometimes used as a method of contraception are pure speculation only, with no foundation in this report.

    NO FOUNDATION IN THIS REPORT RE LIFESTYLE CHOICES!!!

    I agree, the report is what is measured, anything derived from it is nothing more than speculation


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