woman refused abortion - Mod Note in first post.

Mountainsandh

Yeah, again you'd think maybe if the person from the IFPA was finding it hard to communicate with the person, and knew that the visa was a lengthy and uncertain process, she/he might have redirected the woman to the GP ?
Maybe they did, but the woman simply didn't understand that was an important bit.

ardle1

So she's a Foreign National probably on her own in a strange Country and struggling to make ends meet, and as the result of being raped she is pregnant.. But yet the 'powers that be' in Ireland decide to deny her an abortion!?
like WTF?

Frito

Ralphdejones wrote: »

BTW, has anyone any figures on how many abortions have been carried out to date under the new legislation ?

The act specifies an annual report must be made by the executive committee to be published on or before June 30th. I've looked but can't find one publicly available.

takamichinoku

Is there actually anything stating that she wasn't going to any kind of doctor between weeks 8 and 16? From what I could gather, week 16 was only referenced as the week she first mentioned the suicidal thoughts, not that it was necessarily the first action taken since week 8.

Frito

takamichinoku wrote: »

Is there actually anything stating that she wasn't going to any kind of doctor between weeks 8 and 16? From what I could gather, week 16 was only referenced as the week she first mentioned the suicidal thoughts, not that it was necessarily the first action taken since week 8.

The woman's account is she had a number of meetings with ifpa between weeks 8-16 where she thought her abortion in uk was being arranged, to be told by a 'medic' at week 16 that she would have to fund this herself.

Ralphdejones

Frito wrote: »

The woman's account is she had a number of meetings with ifpa between weeks 8-16 where she thought her abortion in uk was being arranged, to be told by a 'medic' at week 16 that she would have to fund this herself.

This is appalling, she should have been referred to a GP immediately, at the very least to get a routine medical.

Mountainsandh

Frito wrote: »

The woman's account is she had a number of meetings with ifpa between weeks 8-16 where she thought her abortion in uk was being arranged, to be told by a 'medic' at week 16 that she would have to fund this herself.

So that's another 4 weeks to the HSE link, and then another 4 to the panel decision.
The 4 weeks to HSE are the most crucial here in my opinion. Despite the initial breakdown in communication between the IFPA and her, abortion would still have been possible, and a lot more acceptable at 17/18 weeks than past the 20 weeks mark (when the fetus's brain starts to develop higher brain functions and quicker from what I gather).

Frito

Ralphdejones wrote: »

This is appalling, she should have been referred to a GP immediately, at the very least to get a routine medical.

I agree, but I wonder whether she had registered with a GP. The act is quite clear that referral to panel should come via GP. If the ifpa had been able to refer then perhaps the outcome would have been different?

Ralphdejones

Frito wrote: »

I agree, but I wonder whether she had registered with a GP. The act is quite clear that referral to panel should come via GP. If the ifpa had been able to refer then perhaps the outcome would have been different?

Surely the IFPA could have helped her to see a GP ? Thankfully her friend advised her 8 weeks later to see one.

takamichinoku

Mountainsandh wrote: »

So that's another 4 weeks to the HSE link, and then another 4 to the panel decision.
The 4 weeks to HSE are the most crucial here in my opinion. Despite the initial breakdown in communication between the IFPA and her, abortion would still have been possible, and a lot more acceptable at 17/18 weeks than past the 20 weeks mark (when the fetus's brain starts to develop higher brain functions and quicker from what I gather).

it's very hard to explain those 4 weeks alright. You'd imagine that if a woman comes into a GP mentioning that she's having suicidal thoughts and doesn't want to keep the pregnancy that they'd be immediately onto the HSE about it (if only to wash their hands clean of the whole situation, like. Can imagine a lot of GPs would immediately feel way in over their head). And you'd imagine the HSE would be immediately taking action upon being notified (they didn't find out until week 20 though?)... I mean, you'd think the whole system would be equipped to handle dealing with this kind of thing in a far quicker span of time.

Mountainsandh

Exactly.
Thought it was the doctor from the Rotunda on the radio today who was saying to convene a panel in his hospital could probably be achieved the same day as the request was made ?


Ralph, I agree, I can't understand how the IFPA would start Visa procedure etc... and leave a woman who doesn't have a clue about the system wait without attending a GP, just to have that box ticked. And if I remember right, she had already stated her distress to the IFPA, although at that stage she might not have felt downright suicidal. Again possibly a communication issue, with them advising and her not understanding.

Frito

Ralphdejones wrote: »

Surely the IFPA could have helped her to see a GP ? Thankfully her friend advised her 8 weeks later to see one.

The woman reports she verbalised suicidal ideation to a 'medic' at the ifpa at 16 weeks. If she had been speaking to a doctor, I would assume that yes, they could have referred her to a GP. Perhaps they did, but the woman specifically states it was a friend who suggested she see a GP.

Packrat

This thread has become very complicated, with who knew what when, and did what when, and on what basis under who's authority.

The end result of the flawed process is that she is no longer pregnant. She doesent have to rear her alleged rapists baby, some lucky couple will be made very happy (assuming the baby survives) Win win win.

And yet, some people are unhappy that the child wasn't killed.

takamichinoku

Packrat wrote: »

Win win win

Jesus Christ

Packrat

takamichinoku wrote: »

Jesus Christ

There ye go again, bringing God into it..... ;-)

Frito

Packrat wrote: »

This thread has become very complicated, with who knew what when, and did what when, and on what basis under who's authority.

The end result of the flawed process is that she is no longer pregnant. She doesent have to rear her alleged rapists baby, some lucky couple will be made very happy (assuming the baby survives) Win win win.

And yet, some people are unhappy that the child wasn't killed.

It's called analysis. You must have tried it once to conclude the process was flawed.

Packrat

Frito wrote: »

It's called analysis. You must have tried it once to conclude the process was flawed.

We'll if it wasn't, this argument wouldn't be occurring, whichever side one is on.

Nodin

From todays Indo.....

"THE Health Service Executive was informed that there were “serious concerns” for the mental health of a teenage rape victim when she was 14 weeks pregnant and actively seeking an abortion. Share The Irish Independent has learned that the Irish Family Planning Association (IFPA), to whom the young girl was referred by a HSE nurse, contacted the nurse last May.The phone call alerting that nurse to her deteriorating mental health was placed by the IFPA during the teen’s last counselling session, where she learned that it could cost more than €1,500 to travel overseas for an abortion.The IFPA then lost contact with the young woman after she moved to a new accommodation centre within the country’s direct provision system.

She later presented, at 22 weeks’ gestation, at a GP’s clinic in another location seeking an abortion on mental health grounds. However, her baby was delivered early by caesarean section when she was 25 weeks pregnant after she was deemed to be at risk of suicide. "

"Within government circles, questions are being raised about why the woman was not referred for a psychiatric assessment when she was being medically examined and advised on her options.The woman, who was raped in her home country, discovered she was pregnant during a public health screening process which all asylum seekers undergo when they enter direct provision.

She was approximately eight weeks pregnant when she learned that she was pregnant.She immediately requested an abortion and was referred to the IFPA, a non-statutory agency and charity that provides sexual health, family planning and pregnancy counselling and training services. "
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/young-woman-in-abortion-case-got-lost-in-the-system-30521491.html

Nodin

The Times is more detailed

"Concerns for the psychological welfare of the young woman at the centre of the latest abortion controversy were brought to the HSE at the end of May, two months earlier than has been reported, it is understood.

She says she was pregnant as a result of rape before she came to the country and first asked for an abortion when she was eight weeks and four days pregnant, at the beginning of April. She was referred to the Irish Family Planning Association (IFPA) for counselling.

When told that the cost of travelling for an abortion could be as high as €1,500 at an IFPA counselling session in late May, she said she would rather die than continue with the pregnancy. The Irish Times understands she was then referred to a HSE staff member.

The revelation raises new questions about the HSE’s role in her care and why she was not referred at this stage to a GP, who could then refer her on to a psychiatrist under the terms of the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act. The Act did not come into play in her case until July, when she attended a GP and was then referred to a psychiatrist. "
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/hse-told-of-abortion-case-concerns-in-may-1.1902063

mrsbyrne

Ralphdejones wrote: »

She presented to the IFPA at 8 weeks
It's baffling that the first time she was seen by a GP was at 16 weeks, and that this was after her friend advised her to do so.
The HSE were informed at 20 weeks
The medical panel decided at 24 weeks
The pregnancy was termintated at 25 weeks

BTW, has anyone any figures on how many abortions have been carried out to date under the new legislation ?

It's not baffling really. It seems she left the IFPA clinic a 8 week's under the impression that they were organising an abortion for her.
A pregnant distressed apparently alone penniless non national visa restricted teenager with very poor English alleging rape should not have been allowed to leave that clinic like that.

mrsbyrne

I also wonder if she wasn't referred to the RApe Crisis Centre or one of the many domestic abuse units who were IMHO far more appropriate to deal with this then IFPA.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

mrsbyrne wrote: »

It's not baffling really. It seems she left the IFPA clinic a 8 week's under the impression that they were organising an abortion for her.
A pregnant distressed apparently alone penniless non national visa restricted teenager with very poor English alleging rape should not have been allowed to leave that clinic like that.

And if our abortion laws weren't such a sick joke she wouldn't have been. Somebody would have been able to make an appointment for her to have a medical abortion in Ireland, either when she was initially examined by the direct provision, or when she was seen by the IFPA.

mrsbyrne

Gustavo CoolS Quote wrote: »

And if our abortion laws weren't such a sick joke she wouldn't have been. Somebody would have been able to make an appointment for her to have a medical abortion in Ireland, either when she was initially examined by the direct provision, or when she was seen by the IFPA.

No. She was not properly processed at the IFPA clinic.suicidal and 8 weeks pregnant ticks the boxes. 23 weeks and suicidal doesn't.
In every westernized country with abortion boxes must be ticked, wether you like it or not.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

mrsbyrne wrote: »

No. She was not properly processed at the IFPA clinic.suicidal and 8 weeks pregnant ticks the boxes. 23 weeks and suicidal doesn't.
In every westernized country with abortion boxes must be ticked, wether you like it or not.

And I'd say 18, living under direct provision, alleging rape and explicitly requesting an abortion would tick the boxes of most civilised countries.

bumper234

mrsbyrne wrote: »

It's not baffling really. It seems she left the IFPA clinic a 8 week's under the impression that they were organising an abortion for her.
A pregnant distressed apparently alone penniless non national visa restricted teenager with very poor English alleging rape should not have been allowed to leave that clinic like that.

So they should have locked her up? :rolleyes:

You know the IFPA are only allowed to give advice right? They are not allowed to organize an abortion or travel, they are not even allowed to fund her travel to the UK for an abortion.

bumper234

mrsbyrne wrote: »

No. She was not properly processed at the IFPA clinic.suicidal and 8 weeks pregnant ticks the boxes. 23 weeks and suicidal doesn't.
In every westernized country with abortion boxes must be ticked, wether you like it or not.

I have never been to the IFPA clinic and would never have a need to visit, Why don't you do me a favour and explain the "process" that the IFPA should/would have gone through please.....you know.....for the uneducated among us.

mrsbyrne

Gustavo CoolS Quote wrote: »

And I'd say 18, living under direct provision, alleging rape and explicitly requesting an abortion would tick the boxes of most civilised countries.

And it ticks the boxes here. But IMO IFPA didn't process this girl appropriately, complete bo**ix made of it IMO.she should have been handed over to the RApe Crisis Center at 8 weeks. They have the experience and things would be much different today.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

mrsbyrne wrote: »

And it ticks the boxes here. But IMO IFPA didn't process this girl appropriately, complete bo**ix made of it IMO.she should have been handed over to the RApe Crisis Center at 8 weeks. They have the experience and things would be much different today.

No it doesn't tick the boxes here, the pregnancy has to constitute a threat to the life of the mother before it ticks the boxes. She had seen a medical professional, she was only eight weeks pregnant, and she requested an abortion. If it wasn't for the doolally abortion laws in this country she would have been able to access that without being bounced around different organisations.

I agree that this situation was ballsed up at some point, but I suspect you're trying to deflect blame from the broader legal framework onto the organisations. If there was a sane attitude to accessing abortion in Ireland, the organisations may well not have gotten the chance to balls up in the first place.

NuMarvel

mrsbyrne wrote: »

And it ticks the boxes here. But IMO IFPA didn't process this girl appropriately, complete bo**ix made of it IMO.she should have been handed over to the RApe Crisis Center at 8 weeks. They have the experience and things would be much different today.

The girl had already been referred to the IFPA by a public health nurse. The IFPA may have thought it best not to refer someone in a distressed state to yet another agency. Particularly when their counselors are qualified and accredited therapists, who almost certainly have dealt with rape victims before, and the service the girl was requesting, i.e. an abortion, was one they could advise her on.

What isn't clear is why was she referred to the IFPA instead of a hospital or doctor when she initially requested an abortion. And what steps did the HSE take when the IFPA referred her back to them at the end of May?

MrPudding

Maxie26 wrote: »

i think its incredible that someone would think that a parent should have a choice on whether they child comfort their child in their hour of need, there is no compassion in this thread, it is worrying that you dont even suggest that the child or potential child should have a say in this!

There is plenty of compassion in this thread. Many of us beleive that there is no compassion in giving birth to a child that will know only suffering and pain.

RobertKK wrote: »

Ethicists linked to Oxford argue parents should be allowed to kill their babies as it is no different to abortion. One can come up with all sort of arguments...

I expect this will be wasted on you, but you do realise this paper was only a thought experiment? The authors are not suggesting parents should be allowed to kill their children. They have gone to great pains to explain this, the the anti-choice crowd tend to ignore this somewhat inconvenient fact.

mrsbyrne wrote: »

Kylith as soon as we have unlimited abortion on demand, I take it you will then demand compulsory abortions for unborn babies diagnosed with life threatening abnormalities? You appear to have issues with parents who opt to continue with such a pregnancy?

Whilst I personally think anyone that believes the correct thing to do with a pregnancy where there is a FFA is take the pregnancy to term so they can hd the baby while it suffers in pain for its mercifully short life is pretty much a monster, I would still not suggest compulsory abortions. The reason for this is I, like many of the other posters here, am not pro-abortion, I am pro-choice. I appreciate that this might be a difficult nuance for you to understand, particularly as the idea of choice, as opposed to your opinion being forced on others, is something that you seem to have trouble grasping.

MrP