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woman refused abortion - Mod Note in first post.

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    #182
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Wait what term was it when she wanted the abortion?

    She was in the second trimester that she discovered she was pregnant. It reads that the timeframe wasn't very long between that and the birth.

    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/health/baby-delivered-as-woman-refused-abortion-under-law-30512513.html


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    #183
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    PeteFalk78 wrote: »
    Who says she is going to be forced to keep the child?

    She was forced to carry the child to the date of the cesaerian.


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    #184
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »
    Conception?
    Implantation?
    First missed period?

    Many schools of thought on the pro life side.
    Have you got a view? Or that single medical definition that you referred to?


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    #185
    mirrorwall14
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,751 ✭✭✭mirrorwall14


    green_screen wrote: »
    They said she was not a suicide risk.

    Re-read the article

    "The psychiatrists on the panel determined her life was at risk as she had suicidal thoughts"- See more at: http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/health/baby-delivered-as-woman-refused-abortion-under-law-30512513.html#sthash.7S7ZBHWQ.dpuf


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    #186
    Highflyer13
    Closed Accounts Posts: 954 ✭✭✭Highflyer13


    Sorry for my ignorance on this topic but can someone just threaten suicide to try get the process started to have an abortion?

    I'm all for abortion in the case of serious illness with the baby, a threat to the mothers life through complications in the pregnancy etc etc.

    In this case it seems that the mother was mentally ill and just didn't want her child which had its own organs developing. She effectively wanted to kill a healthy developing child. To me suicide ideation seems like a ridiculous excuse to abort a child especially at this stage.


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    #187
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    green_screen wrote: »
    They said she was not a suicide risk.

    Because doctors are never wrong :rolleyes:


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    #188
    takamichinoku
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,110 ✭✭✭takamichinoku


    I guess this really is just another step toward Ireland being forced to accept that our current laws aren't anywhere near acceptable. Hopefully the right changes are made before even more tragic stories come about, but I wouldn't count on it.
    The time involved in these things is way too tight for there to be court hearings and whatnot, the highly offputting nature of things like that will only make some pregnant women want to bury their head in the sand and put them off until the last minute too.


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    #189
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    green_screen wrote: »
    They said she was not a suicide risk.


    No, they said she was.


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    #190
    Phoebas
    Registered Users Posts: 9,371 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    bumper234 wrote: »
    What state the mothers mind is in now after being forced to keep the child, that's another thing.
    The child has been 'extracted', but not in the method that she would have preferred.
    Having an unwanted operation must be a small price to pay for the woman who said she was suicidal because of the unwanted pregnancy. The caesarian may have saved her very life.

    It seems like a reasonable outcome all round given the unfortunate circumstances.


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    #191
    PeteFalk78
    Closed Accounts Posts: 762 ✭✭✭PeteFalk78


    bumper234 wrote: »
    She was forced to carry the child to the date of the cesaerian.

    You know I mean after delivery. As mentioned before I can't see social services handing over a baby to a person who wanted it murdered.


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    #192
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    Highflyer13 wrote: »
    Sorry for my ignorance on this topic but can someone just threaten suicide to try get the process started to have an abortion?

    I'm all for abortion in the case of serious illness with the baby, a threat to the mothers life through complications in the pregnancy etc etc.

    In this case it seems that the mother was mentally ill and just didn't want her child which had its own organs developing. She effectively wanted to kill a healthy developing child. To me suicide ideation seems like a ridiculous excuse to abort a child especially at this stage.

    Is suicide not a risk to a mothers life? :confused:


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    #193
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Nodin wrote: »
    No, they said she was.

    "The psychiatrists on the panel determined her life was at risk as she had suicidal thoughts. But the consultant obstetrician said the baby could be delivered as it was far enough into the pregnancy.

    The panel decided the baby should be delivered. The child was born at 25 weeks and is understood to be doing well."


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    #194
    Cleveland Hot Pocket
    Registered Users Posts: 5,193 ✭✭✭Cleveland Hot Pocket


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Have you got a view? Or that single medical definition that you referred to?

    Fetus changes to viable fetus at ~24 weeks.
    Viable fetus changes to baby when the cord is cut.

    That's both my view and the correct medical term in both instances.


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    #195
    PeteFalk78
    Closed Accounts Posts: 762 ✭✭✭PeteFalk78


    bumper234 wrote: »
    Because doctors are never wrong :rolleyes:
    But there are the most qualified people doing what they do. ;)


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    #196
    Phoebas
    Registered Users Posts: 9,371 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    bumper234 wrote: »
    She was forced to carry the child to the date of the cesaerian.
    How long was that from the time she discovered the pregnancy?
    Would it have taken longer to schedule a caesarian than it would have to schedule an abortion?


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    #197
    Morag
    Registered Users Posts: 8,427 ✭✭✭Morag


    Matt_Trakker wrote: »
    1000 euro? Well, she hardly wanted 2 abortions.

    http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/Sexualhealth/Pages/Abortionyouroptions.aspx

    the costs of flights, and the procedure at clinics which for women travelling must be a surgical abortion is usually around 1,500 but can cost more depending on how far along the pregnancy is.


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    #198
    Cleveland Hot Pocket
    Registered Users Posts: 5,193 ✭✭✭Cleveland Hot Pocket


    Highflyer13 wrote: »
    Sorry for my ignorance on this topic but can someone just threaten suicide to try get the process started to have an abortion?

    I'm all for abortion in the case of serious illness with the baby, a threat to the mothers life through complications in the pregnancy etc etc.

    In this case it seems that the mother was mentally ill and just didn't want her child which had its own organs developing. She effectively wanted to kill a healthy developing child. To me suicide ideation seems like a ridiculous excuse to abort a child especially at this stage.

    People need to grow up and accept that mental illness is a real thing which affects a lot of people these days.

    Oh, and, to "kill a healthy developing child" is illegal. However to abort a fetus before it becomes a child is not.
    PeteFalk78 wrote: »
    You know I mean after delivery. As mentioned before I can't see social services handing over a baby to a person who wanted it murdered.

    How can you murder a potential human being that is currently a sub human?


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    #199
    Cleveland Hot Pocket
    Registered Users Posts: 5,193 ✭✭✭Cleveland Hot Pocket


    PeteFalk78 wrote: »
    But there are the most qualified people doing what they do. ;)

    Yes but some can be either
    (a) wrong, especially after working 15-20 hours prior to the decision
    (b) affected by their own pro life beliefs.


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    #200
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Phoebas wrote: »
    How long was that from the time she discovered the pregnancy?
    Would it have taken longer to schedule a caesarian than it would have to schedule an abortion?

    "She applied for a termination and was rejected. She then went on a hunger and fluid strike," a source said.

    Concerns for the well-­being of her and her baby were heightened. The HSE went to the High Court to get a care order to prevent her from starving herself. A second court date was due for the HSE to set out its care plan.

    However, in the intervening period, the woman agreed to have the baby delivered.

    The woman was between 23 and 25 weeks pregnant when the baby was delivered last week.

    "The psychiatrists would have assessed her as having suicidal ideation. The consultant leaned on the legislation which allows the baby to be delivered," a source said.

    "The care order gave permission to hydrate her. She wasn't on hunger strike for long enough to be of danger to herself or the baby."


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    #201
    Phoebas
    Registered Users Posts: 9,371 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    Deleted User wrote: »
    "The psychiatrists on the panel determined her life was at risk as she had suicidal thoughts. But the consultant obstetrician said the baby could be delivered as it was far enough into the pregnancy.

    The panel decided the baby should be delivered. The child was born at 25 weeks and is understood to be doing well."
    I think that makes her too late to avail of a legal abortion in the UK.


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    #202
    Cleveland Hot Pocket
    Registered Users Posts: 5,193 ✭✭✭Cleveland Hot Pocket


    Phoebas wrote: »
    I think that makes her too late to avail of a legal abortion in the UK.

    I think so too - afaik it is 24 weeks as the max in the UK (mainland)


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    #203
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »
    Fetus changes to viable fetus at ~24 weeks.
    Viable fetus changes to baby when the cord is cut.

    That's both my view and the correct medical term in both instances.
    So it follows that you think that abortion should be allowed right up until the cord is cut?


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    #204
    RDM_83 again
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    Does anybody actually have a time-table of these events? the 2nd trimester is from 13 to 28 weeks, if these events occurred towards the end of this period the fetus is capable of feeling pain (this occurs around 23-24) weeks and with medical intervention is capable of independent life (if you can find me a scientist/medic that disagrees with this assesment please post a link?)
    I'm sort of curious about the logic behind some the outraged posts in this thread, does the attachment of the umbilical cord mean that the mother has absolute rights to the fate of the fetus no matter what stage of development because that seems to be the argument being put forwards?
    Wether your profile or pro-choice there is very solid reasons why on a global scale 24 weeks is the upper limit for abortion (exludes canada etc)


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    #205
    PeteFalk78
    Closed Accounts Posts: 762 ✭✭✭PeteFalk78


    Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »
    How can you murder a potential human being that is currently a sub human?

    In my opinion if you kill/terminate/abort (whatever) something that can live independently from it's mother then it's unethical and immoral


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    #206
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Kaiden Dead Penlight wrote: »
    So, if she HAD committed suicide then it would have been ok that both mother and foetus died because at least it would have proved that she was really suicidal?

    And my argument sounds ridiculous?? :rolleyes:

    A bit like that old test for witches , tie them up and chuck them in the river , if the woman survives she is a witch , but innocent if she drowns .


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    #207
    Cleveland Hot Pocket
    Registered Users Posts: 5,193 ✭✭✭Cleveland Hot Pocket


    Deleted User wrote: »
    So it follows that you think that abortion should be allowed right up until the cord is cut?

    No, there is a difference between fetus and viable fetus.
    I think in my own case I would not be in favor of theoretically me having and abortion at >24 weeks (as a man, I can't have one anyway - hence the theoretical)
    However I am still undecided as to what I think should be the legal limit for abortions for others.


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    #208
    Cleveland Hot Pocket
    Registered Users Posts: 5,193 ✭✭✭Cleveland Hot Pocket


    PeteFalk78 wrote: »
    In my opinion if you kill/terminate/abort (whatever) something that can live independently from it's mother then it's unethical and immoral

    Yes, which is why I believe that the difference between fetus and viable fetus at 24 weeks is all important.


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    #209
    Morag
    Registered Users Posts: 8,427 ✭✭✭Morag


    mrsbyrne wrote: »
    Why do you think shes having it thrust on her? She like any mother doesn't even have to look st the baby. She can leave the hospital and not look back.Whst are you talking about?

    Really hard to do that after a C section she will always have those scars.


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    #210
    Phoebas
    Registered Users Posts: 9,371 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    Morag wrote: »
    Really hard to do that after a C section she will always have those scars.
    Yep - we don't live in a consequence free world.


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    #211
    Morag
    Registered Users Posts: 8,427 ✭✭✭Morag


    Micky Dolenz wrote: »
    I thought it was refused as the baby was capable of surviving outside the womb. A c section was given and the child taken into care.

    The woman is no longer pregnant, the child gets a chance at life.

    If that's the case, I think the right calls were made.

    The report says she was refuses an abortion, then subsequently after a hunger strike had a c section preformed on her.

    How long is subsequently?

    Did they refuse her and make her wait until the pregnancy was viable?


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