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woman refused abortion - Mod Note in first post.

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    #2072
    P_1
    Registered Users Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭P_1


    mrsbyrne wrote: »
    And it ticks the boxes here. But IMO IFPA didn't process this girl appropriately, complete bo**ix made of it IMO.she should have been handed over to the RApe Crisis Center at 8 weeks. They have the experience and things would be much different today.

    The IFPA can't refer or hand anyone over to any other organisation. Legally all they can do is to advise someone of what their options are. Now it does seem that something got lost in translation between weeks 8 and 16. But the way the omnishambles of a law in relation to abortion works here there really is no process that the IFPA could have made a bollix of.


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    #2073
    Ralphdejones
    Closed Accounts Posts: 581 ✭✭✭Ralphdejones


    I cannot understand why the first time she got to see a GP was at 16 weeks, and this was only because her friend advised her to attend one. This to me is the crux of the matter, and the HSE and IFPA between then made a complete mess of it.


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    #2074
    Ash.J.Williams
    Registered Users Posts: 21,049 ✭✭✭✭Ash.J.Williams


    it's looking like GP's will just get them to England as fast as possible rather than engage in all that crap


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    #2075
    Ralphdejones
    Closed Accounts Posts: 581 ✭✭✭Ralphdejones


    P_1 wrote: »
    The IFPA can't refer or hand anyone over to any other organisation.

    If they are able to arrange an abortion in the UK, they can certainly arrange for someone presenting to them with serious medical issues to see a GP, and help them get seen by one.


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    #2076
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Ash.J.Williams wrote: »
    it's looking like GP's will just get them to England as fast as possible rather than engage in all that crap

    Not all women are able or eligible to travel outside the state. For example, if you're suffering from hypermesis gravidarium and are vomiting so much that you need to be hydrated a doctor may advise against the stress of air travel. Or if you can't get anyone to mind your other children for a day or so, or if you don't have a few hundred pounds ready to go, or if you're an asylum seeker in direct provision who receives 19 euro a week, how does she save up for an abortion at short notice?
    GPs are not allowed to refer anyone to abortion services, women have to find out all of the information on their own.


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    #2077
    pablomakaveli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,752 ✭✭✭pablomakaveli


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    If they are able to arrange an abortion in the UK, they can certainly arrange for someone presenting to them with serious medical issues to see a GP, and help them get seen by one.

    They aren't able to arrange that. It's been said several times in the thread.


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    #2078
    Ralphdejones
    Closed Accounts Posts: 581 ✭✭✭Ralphdejones


    pablomakaveli wrote: »
    They aren't able to arrange that. It's been said several times in the thread.

    On their RTE radio interview yesterday, they specifically confirmed they can and do, they repeatedly refused to answer why they didn't.


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    #2079
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    On their RTE radio interview yesterday, they specifically confirmed they can and do, they repeatedly refused to answer why they didn't.

    They are an advice service, They can offer advice, Nothing else. If you have proof of otherwise then please post it.


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    #2080
    Ralphdejones
    Closed Accounts Posts: 581 ✭✭✭Ralphdejones


    bumper234 wrote: »
    They are an advice service, They can offer advice, Nothing else. If you have proof of otherwise then please post it.

    If that's the case, how were they arranging an abortion in the UK ?

    They specifically stated in their interview, they can and do refer people to GP's


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    #2081
    kylith
    Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    I would actually put money on it being down to someone in IFPA either not knowing what they were doing, or not giving enough of a damn to do their job properly. It may well turn out to be a case of 'I put her paperwork on the desk, but it was Friday/late in the day, and I wanted to go home' or 'Oh yeah, I totally meant to refer her on but I forgot'.


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    #2082
    Ralphdejones
    Closed Accounts Posts: 581 ✭✭✭Ralphdejones


    pablomakaveli wrote: »
    They aren't able to arrange that. It's been said several times in the thread.

    They were, they even found out the price and quoted it, and told her it was a no go untill she came up with the money.


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    #2083
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    If that's the case, how were they arranging an abortion in the UK ?

    They specifically stated in their interview, they can and do refer people to GP's

    How does refering someone to a GPequate to "arranging an abortion"?


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    #2084
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,072 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    If that's the case, how were they arranging an abortion in the UK ?

    They specifically stated in their interview, they can and do refer people to GP's
    Please provide a link to the interview as proof.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #2085
    Ralphdejones
    Closed Accounts Posts: 581 ✭✭✭Ralphdejones


    bumper234 wrote: »
    How does refering someone to a GPequate to "arranging an abortion"?

    They didn't help her see a GP, that's the entire problem.
    It was only when her friend advised her to see a GP at 16 weeks and tell them she was sucidal, did things start to move.


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    #2086
    Ralphdejones
    Closed Accounts Posts: 581 ✭✭✭Ralphdejones


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Please provide a link to the interview as proof.

    The link was posted several times yesterday and is on the RTE website.


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    #2087
    Calina
    Registered Users Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Calina


    mrsbyrne wrote: »
    No. She was not properly processed at the IFPA clinic.suicidal and 8 weeks pregnant ticks the boxes. 23 weeks and suicidal doesn't.
    In every westernized country with abortion boxes must be ticked, wether you like it or not.

    The boxes required in Ireland, however, are significantly more onerous. In this case, someone might be 8 weeks and pregnant and not necessarily suicidal because they assume they are going to get an abortion. Being told they won't be getting one may make a considerable difference. Humans are not binary creatures and feelings are not on/off - they develop over time.
    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    If they are able to arrange an abortion in the UK, they can certainly arrange for someone presenting to them with serious medical issues to see a GP, and help them get seen by one.

    1) AFAIK, they are not able to arrange an abortion. Arrangements typically have to be made by the families themselves. This issue of families dealing with fatal foetal abnormalities having to make their own arrangements has already been mentioned in other discussions unrelated to this case as being heartless. I'd also add that the IFPA have been the subject of entrapment operations by the anti-women-making-the-decision-brigade in the last year or two, and highly publically at that.

    I'd add that obtaining information and providing it is not the same as picking up the phone, calling the clinic to make the appointment, and going to the RYanair or Irish Ferries website and making the booking and finding a suitably located hotel.

    There is a difference between providing information and making arrangements.

    2) if it is acceptable to you that women obtain abortions in the UK, then it should be acceptable to you that women obtain abortions in Ireland.

    I suspect neither are acceptable to you but just to check, if you are okay with the IFPA arranging abortions in the UK, why are you not okay with the provision of abortions in Ireland? What is the difference?


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    #2088
    NuMarvel
    Registered Users Posts: 3,279 ✭✭✭NuMarvel


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    They were, they even found out the price and quoted it, and told her it was a no go untill she came up with the money.

    Providing information on a service is not the same as arranging it. If I told you there's a flight to Manchester leaving on Thursday at 11am and it costs €80, does that mean I've arranged it?


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    #2089
    mrsbyrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,228 ✭✭✭mrsbyrne


    bumper234 wrote: »
    So they should have locked her up? :rolleyes:

    You know the IFPA are only allowed to give advice right? They are not allowed to organize an abortion or travel, they are not even allowed to fund her travel to the UK for an abortion.

    But I didn't say they were organising an abortion for her. I said she seems to have been under the impression that they were organising an abortion. The main objective of the IFPA should be that everybody wo comes trough the door should get the right info and/or advice for them on that day. Asfar as I can see that didn't happen in this case.


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    #2090
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Those who disagree with abortions, do you also support a referendum on withdrawing the right to travel so woman can obtain abortion services/kill their unborn child abroad? If its ok to travel for an abortion/kill the unborn in another country, what exactly is stopping us, barring a constitutional referendum and subsequent legislation, from allowing women to avail of services here?


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    #2091
    swampgas
    Registered Users Posts: 3,563 ✭✭✭swampgas


    Calina wrote: »
    2) if it is acceptable to you that women obtain abortions in the UK, then it should be acceptable to you that women obtain abortions in Ireland.

    I suspect neither are acceptable to you but just to check, if you are okay with the IFPA arranging abortions in the UK, why are you not okay with the provision of abortions in Ireland? What is the difference?

    This to me is a very significant question. Most anti-abortion posters simply won't answer it. Nor will they give a straight answer to the question about whether women should be prevented from travelling to have abortions.

    I think many people like the idea of Ireland being an "abortion-free" island, with the option of course of an off-shore abortion when needed. It's absolute hypocrisy and unsustainable in the long term.


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    #2092
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    I'm reminded of this: http://mypage.direct.ca/w/writer/anti-tales.html


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    #2093
    takamichinoku
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,110 ✭✭✭takamichinoku


    MrPudding wrote: »
    I expect this will be wasted on you, but you do realise this paper was only a thought experiment? The authors are not suggesting parents should be allowed to kill their children. They have gone to great pains to explain this, the the anti-choice crowd tend to ignore this somewhat inconvenient fact.
    The amount of times articles about that pop up from websites with the word "life" in the name when I'm googling this topic is ridiculous. A complete unwillingness to engage in any kind of rational level.

    Gustavo CoolS Quote wrote: »
    I agree that this situation was ballsed up at some point, but I suspect you're trying to deflect blame from the broader legal framework onto the organisations. If there was a sane attitude to accessing abortion in Ireland, the organisations may well not have gotten the chance to balls up in the first place.
    I can see this needing to be reposted a hell of a lot. Can also see the Varadkar et al trying to cover their arses with the exact same approach.


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    #2094
    Ralphdejones
    Closed Accounts Posts: 581 ✭✭✭Ralphdejones


    MrPudding wrote: »
    There is plenty of compassion in this thread. Many of us beleive that there is no compassion in giving birth to a child that will know only suffering and pain.

    A 'mercy' killing ? How very civilised of you.


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    #2095
    P_1
    Registered Users Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭P_1


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    On their RTE radio interview yesterday, they specifically confirmed they can and do, they repeatedly refused to answer why they didn't.

    No what I think they do is tell people "Here's the number for [insert clinic here]. Ask to speak to [X]. It will cost you [Y amount] and we recommend you stay in [hotel Z]."

    There's a big difference between offering this advice and arranging the thing for somebody.


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    #2096
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    A 'mercy' killing ? How very civilised of you.

    Do you support rescinding the right to travel for woman who travel abroad for the express purpose of killing the unborn via abortion?


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    #2097
    mrsbyrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,228 ✭✭✭mrsbyrne


    bumper234 wrote: »
    I have never been to the IFPA clinic and would never have a need to visit, Why don't you do me a favour and explain the "process" that the IFPA should/would have gone through please.....you know.....for the uneducated among us.

    Why so angry? Going to an information centre to get information help and advice is not rocket science. every person walking through the door should be guaranteed the help ,direction, advice, info whatever most appropriate to them on that particular day.
    In this case, imo, that not what happened.


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    #2098
    takamichinoku
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,110 ✭✭✭takamichinoku


    Don't think I saw this article linked anywhere yet: http://www.independent.ie/opinion/minors-vanishing-from-our-asylum-system-30521496.html


    So here's what I've got from the articles I've read, probably missed some:
    week 8:
    - Was informed of pregnancy by someone with some connection to the HSE
    - Nurse refers her to IFPA for information on options
    - Went to the IFPA
    - Begin steps for visa to UK

    week 14:
    - Discovered the cost of travelling abroad to get it done (definitely sounds like some huge breakdown in communications regarding the cost of it, unless some kind of external provisions were in place which fell through)
    - Responds very badly
    - HSE nurse is informed of situation
    - Gets moved to a new location
    - IFPA lose contact with her (no clue how easy it'd be for these people to track them down, I'd imagine the IFPA are a bit restricted on hounding down people though?)

    week 16-22: (Quite unclear of exactly when)
    - Heads to a GP, expresses suicidal thoughts

    week 22:
    - Formally requests abortion on mental health grounds

    week 22-25:
    - well, all the stuff that seems to be documented clearly enough, asides from why it wasn't a bit faster considering the urgency of the situation


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    #2099
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    P_1 wrote: »
    No what I think they do is tell people "Here's the number for [insert clinic here]. Ask to speak to [X]. It will cost you [Y amount] and we recommend you stay in [hotel Z]."

    There's a big difference between offering this advice and arranging the thing for somebody.

    If you listen to those who had to organise terminations for FFA you'll realise doctors can't even do that. They are told of 'a hospital in Liverpool' but the families had to do all the research on their own with some help from others on online forums who unfortunately had been through the same situation.


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    #2100
    Ralphdejones
    Closed Accounts Posts: 581 ✭✭✭Ralphdejones


    takamichinoku wrote: »
    Don't think I saw this article linked anywhere yet:


    So here's what I've got from the articles I've read, probably missed some:
    week 8:
    - Was informed of pregnancy by someone with some connection to the HSE
    - Nurse refers her to IFPA for information on options
    - Went to the IFPA
    - Begin steps for visa to UK

    week 14:
    - Discovered the cost of travelling abroad to get it done (definitely sounds like some huge breakdown in communications regarding the cost of it, unless some kind of external provisions were in place which fell through)
    - Responds very badly
    - HSE nurse is informed of situation
    - Gets moved to a new location
    - IFPA lose contact with her (no clue how easy it'd be for these people to track them down, I'd imagine the IFPA are a bit restricted on hounding down people though?)

    week 16-22: (Quite unclear of exactly when)
    - Heads to a GP, expresses suicidal thoughts

    week 22:
    - Formally requests abortion on mental health grounds

    week 22-25:
    - well, all the stuff that seems to be documented clearly enough, asides from why it wasn't a bit faster considering the urgency of the situation

    So the first time someone with serious medical issues and seeking help gets to see a GP is when her friend advises her to see one at 16 weeks (at the earliest) ? That's appalling.


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    #2101
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Intermittent Solarflare wrote: »
    I'm against abortion once the foetus reaches the stage where it can feel pain and has emotions regardless of the jurisdiction. Once people travel to other countries they must abide by their laws.

    Why is it different to terminate a pregnancy when the foetus is over say 24 weeks in another country instead of here? Should women be prosecuted on return if that was the purpose of their travel?


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