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woman refused abortion - Mod Note in first post.

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    #2102
    P_1
    Registered Users Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭P_1


    lazygal wrote: »
    If you listen to those who had to organise terminations for FFA you'll realise doctors can't even do that. They are told of 'a hospital in Liverpool' but the families had to do all the research on their own with some help from others on online forums who unfortunately had been through the same situation.

    Really? That's ridiculous in that case. I thought the referendum that came from the X case basically allowed doctors to give out that kind of information.


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    #2103
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Intermittent Solarflare wrote: »
    If a woman travels to a country where it is legal then a woman should not be prosecuted. People should be prosecuted for breaking laws, having an abortion in a country where it is legal is not breaking the law.

    Why is it ok to travel with the express purpose of procuring an abortion if the constitution protects the right to life of the unborn? Surely that right should mean the right to travel to kill the unborn should be rescinded?


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    #2104
    takamichinoku
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,110 ✭✭✭takamichinoku


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    So the first time someone with serious medical issues and seeking help gets to see a GP is when her friend advises her to see one at 16 weeks (at the earliest) ? That's appalling.
    No clue, there's a lot of empty time in there and I'm sure I missed a few things (basically welcoming people to fill in the blanks as clearly as possible).

    That independent article says she was "initially assessed" by a HSE nurse, so they were involved early enough to some degree. I've no clue how pregnancies work in the medical system, but I'd've imagined there'd be some routine checkups and whatnot arranged over that time.


    The amount of bouncing around between different groups sounds like absolute hell, presumably in your first few months as an asylum seeker you'd have to be doing a fair amount of that kind of thing regardless to secure your legal status in the country, too.


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    #2105
    Ralphdejones
    Closed Accounts Posts: 581 ✭✭✭Ralphdejones


    mrsbyrne wrote: »


    Mod Note 2: Keep discussion to the actual case at hand. It's not for convincing people why your opinion on abortion is right and theirs is wrong.

    Is this still in force ?


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    #2106
    P_1
    Registered Users Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭P_1


    lazygal wrote: »
    Why is it different to terminate a pregnancy when the foetus is over say 24 weeks in another country instead of here? Should women be prosecuted on return if that was the purpose of their travel?

    In fairness that is a bit of a silly analogy. The only similar thing I can think of is somebody attempting to prosecute somebody who accompanies an terminally ill patient on their final journey to Dignitas in Switzerland (which is frankly ridiculous but not the matter being discussed here so I'll leave it at that).


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    #2107
    takamichinoku
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,110 ✭✭✭takamichinoku


    lazygal wrote: »
    If you listen to those who had to organise terminations for FFA you'll realise doctors can't even do that. They are told of 'a hospital in Liverpool' but the families had to do all the research on their own with some help from others on online forums who unfortunately had been through the same situation.
    How on earth are doctors supposed to feel even remotely secure discussing these options in their positions with those kind of restriction in place?


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    #2108
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    P_1 wrote: »
    In fairness that is a bit of a silly analogy. The only similar thing I can think of is somebody attempting to prosecute somebody who accompanies an terminally ill patient on their final journey to Dignitas in Switzerland (which is frankly ridiculous but not the matter being discussed here so I'll leave it at that).

    It actually isn't. The X Case rested on a 14 year old suicidal pregnant rape victim whom the state took to the high court with the express intent of restraining her right to travel for the intent of procuring an abortion on the grounds that the unborn's right to life wasn't being vindicated. The high court agreed with the state and it wasn't until a subsequent supreme court decision, which was not unanimous, that allowed Ms X the right to travel was her right to travel vindicated. So if the supreme court decision had gone the other way and the subsequent referendum for the right to travel been passed, women would have faced either being restrained from traveling for the purpose of procuring an abortion or could have been prosecuted on their return to Ireland.


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    #2109
    Ralphdejones
    Closed Accounts Posts: 581 ✭✭✭Ralphdejones


    Does anyone want to discuss the actual case ?


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    #2110
    mrsbyrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,228 ✭✭✭mrsbyrne


    lazygal wrote: »
    Why is it ok to travel with the express purpose of procuring an abortion if the constitution protects the right to life of the unborn? Surely that right should mean the right to travel to kill the unborn should be rescinded?

    I'm not following you here. You do realise that anybody making travel arrangements does not have to declare the purpose of their trip? And that you don't have to report to anyone when you return? This isn't N. korea!


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    #2111
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    takamichinoku wrote: »
    How on earth are doctors supposed to feel even remotely secure discussing these options in their positions with those kind of restriction in place?
    If you talk to a obstetrician off the record they'll tell you they are frustrated and angry that they can't provide real medical care for couples who are faced with the news. I've read some of the stories from the TFMR campaign and they are heartbreaking.
    All doctors can say is the only option in Ireland is to remain pregnant, which many couples choose to do, or travel outside the country to terminate the pregnancy.


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    #2112
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    Does anyone want to discuss the actual case ?

    Yeah

    Am still waiting for your evidence that the IFPA arrange abortions.


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    #2113
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    I cannot understand why the first time she got to see a GP was at 16 weeks, and this was only because her friend advised her to attend one. This to me is the crux of the matter, and the HSE and IFPA between then made a complete mess of it.


    I take it that you are therefore in favour of a new referendum and enabling legislation to allow organisations like the IFPA to make all the arrangements for travel to the UK for abortions?

    Currently at the moment, organisations like the IFPA are monitored by misogynistic male-dominated lobby groups to ensure that they only hand out information and do not make arrangements in accordance with the current constitutional provisions. Glad to see that you agree that this is wrong and that the HSE and IFPA should be allowed to do more in these type of cases.

    Of course, if also fits with the typcial Irish hypocrisy of an Irish solution. We should all just grow up and allow abortion within limits.


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    #2114
    Ralphdejones
    Closed Accounts Posts: 581 ✭✭✭Ralphdejones


    Godge wrote: »
    I take it that you are therefore in favour of a new referendum and enabling legislation to allow organisations like the IFPA to make all the arrangements for travel to the UK for abortions?

    Currently at the moment, organisations like the IFPA are monitored by misogynistic male-dominated lobby groups to ensure that they only hand out information and do not make arrangements in accordance with the current constitutional provisions. Glad to see that you agree that this is wrong and that the HSE and IFPA should be allowed to do more in these type of cases.

    Of course, if also fits with the typcial Irish hypocrisy of an Irish solution. We should all just grow up and allow abortion within limits.

    No amount of dancing around is going to change the crux of the matter, which is that, she presented with serious medical issues to the HSE/IFPA at 8 weeks. The first time she got to see a GP, and therefore start the offical process she needed, was at least 16 weeks, after being advised to do so by her friend. Do you think this is the way to deal with someone seeking help for serious medical issues ?


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    #2115
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    The crux of the matter is that, she presented with serious medical issues to the HSE/IFPA at 8 weeks. The first time she got to see a GP, and therefore start the offical process she needed, was at least 16 weeks, after being advised to do so by her friend. Do you think this is the way to deal with someone seeking help for serious medical issues ?

    The crux of the matter is that if we had sensible abortion laws she could have terminated the pregnancy in a timely manner and wouldn't have had to see multiple agencies.


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    #2116
    Ralphdejones
    Closed Accounts Posts: 581 ✭✭✭Ralphdejones


    lazygal wrote: »
    The crux of the matter is that if we had sensible abortion laws she could have terminated the pregnancy in a timely manner and wouldn't have had to see multiple agencies.

    She didn't have to see multiple agencies, she had to see her GP, that's the whole point.
    Yet it after 8 weeks of faffing about by the HSE/IFPA, a person with serious medical issues, only got to see a GP and start the process at 16 weeks, and only thanks to the advice of her friend.


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    #2117
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    She didn't have to see multiple agencies, she had to see her GP, that's the whole point.
    Yet it after 8 weeks of faffing about by the HSE/IFPA, a person with serious medical issues, only got to see a GP at 16 weeks, and only thanks to the advice of her friend.

    A GP can't arrange an abortion. A GP can only refer a woman to another agency, who also can't arrange an abortion, or to a panel of consultants, who can only arrange an abortion if her life is under threat. No matter what happens in Ireland, a single agency cannot arrange an abortion for a suicidal pregnant woman, a GP must be the first port of call, followed by a panel of doctors.


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    #2118
    Morag
    Registered Users Posts: 8,427 ✭✭✭Morag


    There are no polices in place about how crises pregnancy counsellors are to refer on someone who says they are suicidal.
    The Head of the Well Woman clinic who offer the same crises pregnancy couselling has been interview saying there is no process in place with the HSE despite the legislation which has been passed.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/agencies-say-protocols-must-be-issued-to-counsellors-1.1902020


    Gps and places that offer crises pregnancy couselling can not arrange the logsitics of traveling to the UK.
    They are not permitted by law, they can't even ring a clinic on the behave of someone for information.

    https://www.abortionsupport.org.uk/ who are based in the UK do this for women who have to travel and is run by volunteers.


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    #2119
    Ralphdejones
    Closed Accounts Posts: 581 ✭✭✭Ralphdejones


    lazygal wrote: »
    A GP can't arrange an abortion. A GP can only refer a woman to another agency, who also can't arrange an abortion, or to a panel of consultants, who can only arrange an abortion if her life is under threat. No matter what happens in Ireland, a single agency cannot arrange an abortion for a suicidal pregnant woman, a GP must be the first port of call, followed by a panel of doctors.

    It's not another agency its a medical consultant panel, and rightly only a GP after medically examining a person can arrange that. That's where the process starts, and it took 16 weeks (8 weeks after she sought help from the HSE and IFPA, before someone, her friend, told a woman with serious medical issues to to get to a GP pronto. That's appaling.


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    #2120
    Calina
    Registered Users Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Calina


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    It's not another agency its a medical consultant panel, and rightly only a GP after medically checking a person can arrange that. That's where the process starts, and it took 16 weeks (8 weeks after she sought help from the HSE and IFPA, before someone, her friend, told a woman with serious medical issues to to get to a GP pronto. That's appaling.

    The net result would have been an abortion at 10 weeks all other things remaining equal.

    Your earlier posts in this thread suggest that you would have also objected to this.


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    #2121
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    It's not another agency its a medical consultant panel, and rightly only a GP after medically checking a person can arrange that. That's where the process starts, and it took 16 weeks (8 weeks after she sought help from the HSE and IFPA, before someone, her friend, told a woman with serious medical issues to to get to a GP pronto. That's appaling.

    GP-one agency.
    HSE panel-another agency.

    A pregnant suicidal woman has to first engage with a GP who then refers her on. I don't know why this is the law. On my first pregnancy I had limited contact with my GP to confirm the pregnancy. On my second I never contacted my GP, I booked in with the hospital directly. Who decided a woman has to self refer to a GP rather than engaging with maternity services and why? It is an additional barrier.


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    #2122
    takamichinoku
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,110 ✭✭✭takamichinoku


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    It's not another agency its a medical consultant panel, and rightly only a GP after medically examining a person can arrange that. That's where the process starts, and it took 16 weeks (8 weeks after she sought help from the HSE and IFPA, before someone, her friend, told a woman with serious medical issues to to get to a GP pronto. That's appaling.
    You're working off some kind of assumption that she was suicidal from the get go here?


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    #2123
    Ralphdejones
    Closed Accounts Posts: 581 ✭✭✭Ralphdejones


    lazygal wrote: »
    GP-one agency.
    HSE panel-another agency.

    A pregnant suicidal woman has to first engage with a GP who then refers her on. I don't know why this is the law. On my first pregnancy I had limited contact with my GP to confirm the pregnancy. On my second I never contacted my GP, I booked in with the hospital directly. Who decided a woman has to self refer to a GP rather than engaging with maternity services and why? It is an additional barrier.

    So let me get this right, if you worked in the HSE or IFPA, and someone with serious medical issues came to you seeking help, you would not advise them to also see a GP pronto ? Thankfully her friend had the sense to do so, but not untill 16 weeks.


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    #2124
    Ralphdejones
    Closed Accounts Posts: 581 ✭✭✭Ralphdejones


    takamichinoku wrote: »
    You're working off some kind of assumption that she was suicidal from the get go here?

    So when did she become sucidal, at 16 weeks ?
    If it was before 16 weeks why on earth was she not helped to see a GP ?
    And even if she wasn't suicidal, why on earth was someone presenting with serious medical issues and seeking help from the HSE/IFPA, not helped to see a GP ?


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    #2125
    takamichinoku
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,110 ✭✭✭takamichinoku


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    So when did she become sucidal, at 16 weeks ?
    If it was before 16 weeks why on earth was she not helped to see a GP ?
    Potentially, yes. Does that somehow seem infeasible? Seems very possible to me that whenever she found out there were no options for her would have been the point that she'd have hit a new low.

    As lazygal said up there, you generally don't need to see a GP once you already know what's up with you. On the basis of all these restrictions apparently imposed on groups here, she'd have presumably had to express her suicidal intent to someone so that they could refer her to the legal guidelines for that situation? Can only imagine the IFPA actively recommending the whole situation regarding suicide as a last resort would be enough to ruin them.


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    #2126
    Ralphdejones
    Closed Accounts Posts: 581 ✭✭✭Ralphdejones


    takamichinoku wrote: »
    Potentially, yes. Does that somehow seem infeasible? Seems very possible to me that whenever she found out there were no options for her would have been the point that she'd have hit a new low.

    As lazygal said up there, you generally don't need to see a GP once you already know what's up with you. On the basis of all these restrictions apparently imposed on groups here, she'd have presumably had to express her suicidal intent to someone so that they could refer her to the legal guidelines for that situation? Can only imagine the IFPA actively recommending the whole situation regarding suicide as a last resort would be enough to ruin them.

    How does anyone know what depth of serious medical issues might exist without seeing a GP ?
    If you worked in the HSE or IFPA, and a vunerable immigrant with serious medical issues came to you seeking medical help, you would not advise and help them to also see a GP pronto ? Thankfully a friend did eventually. It's pretty appalling the HSE/IFPA did not.


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    #2127
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    How does anyone know what a serious medical issues exist without seeing a GP ?
    If you worked in the HSE or IFPA, and a vunerbale immigrant with serious medical issues came to you seeking help, you would not advise and help them to also see a GP pronto ? Thankfully a friend did eventually. It's pretty appalling the HSE/IFPA did not.

    Pregnancy is a serious medical issue which I never saw my Gp about. I attended a maternity hospital and never needed to contact my gp.


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    #2128
    takamichinoku
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,110 ✭✭✭takamichinoku


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    How does anyone know what a serious medical issues exist without seeing a GP ?
    If you worked in the HSE or IFPA, and someone with serious medical issues came to you seeking help, you would not advise them to also see a GP pronto ? Thankfully a friend did eventually. It's pretty appalling the HSE/IFPA did not.
    There's no evidence that she wasn't availing of whatever medical treatment was required for her pregnancy.
    Assuming the "serious medical issues" you speak of are her suicidal ideation and desire to terminate the pregnancy? The former may not have been mentioned (in which case how on earth are an organisation such as the IFPA supposed to say "well... we may have an option for you, if you can get yourself to the point of wanting to take your own life") and the restrictions imposed on groups over discussing the latter have been covered by people with a far better idea of what's involved than I.

    The gap between weeks 8 and 14 is hard to explain, but there's no details there which would have needed anyone to refer her to a GP there that I'm aware of. What exactly could a GP do in the event she wasn't yet suicidal? From what I can gather it's f*ck all.


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    #2129
    eyescreamcone
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,562 ✭✭✭eyescreamcone


    The present law is a mess and needs to be changed.
    Let's have a referendum to repeal that 8th amendment.
    And then let the people decide what type of abortion laws they want.
    Give the people a tick box list.
    Abortion on demand
    Women's health
    Fatal fetal abnormalities
    Women's life
    Suicide etc
    (feel free to add your own reason for abortion to the list)

    Of course the anti choice gang will try to blur the issue (as only they can do). But we need to watch out for this on this occasion.


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    #2130
    Ralphdejones
    Closed Accounts Posts: 581 ✭✭✭Ralphdejones


    takamichinoku wrote: »
    There's no evidence that she wasn't availing of whatever medical treatment was required for her pregnancy.

    How can you avail of correct medical treatment without seeing a Doctor ?


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    #2131
    Muise...
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,512 ✭✭✭Muise...


    eyescreamcone wrote: »
    The present law is a mess and needs to be changed.
    Let's have a referendum to repeal that 8th amendment.
    And then let the people decide what type of abortion laws they want.
    Give the people a tick box list.
    Abortion on demand
    Women's health
    Fatal fetal abnormalities
    Women's life
    Suicide etc
    (feel free to add your own reason for abortion to the list)

    Of course the anti choice gang will try to blur the issue (as only they can do). But we need to watch out for this on this occasion.

    Agreed - but I think only women with crisis pregnancies should decide what is best for them. If only the State trusted women to decide that for themselves. I'd bet anything we would see hardly any late abortions and those that are done late in the pregnancy would be for medical reasons only.


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