woman refused abortion - Mod Note in first post.

Awkward Badger

Clandestine wrote: »

There are posts on twitter claiming that:
https://twitter.com/_JustGina/status/502188733849165824
https://twitter.com/MariaLaoise/status/502164805202235393

Just wondering if anyone from boards who was actually there has any more details

EDIT: Never mind, found this (top of the page): https://www.facebook.com/events/335321293309252/?ref=4

What an absolute idiot.

Telling men to know their place and their input is worth less than a woman's because its a women's movement and men get enough opportunity to have a platform to talk about issues ?

Not that it changes my view on the issue but it doesn't exactly entice me to come out in support of these rallies. Any time I see the mic opened at these things I cringe. They attract self centred, arrogant lunatics more interested in the attention gotten from shouting in front of a crowd than actually making progress on anything.

efb

I understand the woman's point. Don't lecture a woman about her body.

I was at the Dublin rally and I found that woman's speech really odd. I get the point that women should be at the front of the campaign and that it is impossible for a man (with all the good will in the world) to understand what a woman experiences. But it seems like she's angry about all sorts of issues and used this as a platform to vent. She's directing her anger at the wrong people; men might not be capable of getting pregnant but their wives, girlfriends, sisters, mothers and friends are. They can feel the same kind of disgust that most of the women on this thread felt when we heard about this girl's case. Their support should be welcomed.

There was some (weirdly quiet) booing from some of the women around me. I think the men were a bit shocked!

efb

MariaLaoise is a big anti abortionist on twitter

efb

I can't know what it's like to be a woman and have to deal with being pregnant.

bumper234

Piliger wrote: »

And yet you did in your own post.

I never "expected" anything! I merely pointed out that it is not a case of just calling into or ringing a GP office to get seen to straight away as some here think you can do.

Muise...

efb wrote: »

I can't know what it's like to be a woman and have to deal with being pregnant.

I can't know what it's like to be a man whose wife or girlfriend is struggling with pregnancy/miscarriage/abortion/birth/PND. But I think I could listen and try to understand. And I'm sure I'd appreciate your statement as a good opener.

Awkward Badger

efb wrote: »

I understand the woman's point. Don't lecture a woman about her body.

How many supporters there with their friends were there to lecture them on their body ? The movement is about the woman's right to choose and everyone there men included were supporting that. Then this woman turns around and tells the men to know their place and they have had enough platforms and this is a woman's. Its the same logic as "Only women capable of giving birth should be allowed vote on abortion".

The issues affects everyone on some level. If her and others in the rally want it to solely be a platform for her and women to have a say rather than an attempt to have an impact then away they go. Just be clear about it, its a sounding board for angry women ranting not an attempt to change the laws on abortion.

efb

Awkward Badger wrote: »

How many supporters there with their friends were there to lecture them on their body ? The movement is about the woman's right to choose and everyone there men included were supporting that. Then this woman turns around and tells the men to know their place and they have had enough platforms and this is a woman's. Its the same logic as "Only women capable of giving birth should be allowed vote on abortion".

The issues affects everyone on some level. If her and others in the rally want it to solely be a platform for her and women to have a say rather than an attempt to have an impact then away they go. Just be clear about it, its a sounding board for angry people ranting not an attempt to change the laws on abortion.

She did say that the support was welcome, just not to lecture woman on it.

Godge

conorh91 wrote: »

To clarify, I am talking about the responsibility that should be taken on by the IFPA.

I would hope, or assume they have a list of GPs or other medical doctors which they rely on.

I am not blaming this woman for the situation she found herself in. I am asking why on Earth the IFPA would complicate matters by referring her to a nurse, and not a doctor, as the Act requires.

There also seem to be questions about a follow-up and whether the woman was provided with a translator when the IFPA sent her to a nurse. .

It is easy for someone who knows the system and has money to get a doctor, not so easy for an immigrant with no money to understand what is going on around her and to ask the right questions.

conorh91 wrote: »

Would people please stop comparing themselves to this woman?

There is no comparison.

Exactly, there is no comparison with how easy you think it is and the difficulties she faced.

eviltwin

I don't object to men at pro choice events, the more the merrier. Men will never be pregnant or have an abortion but many have been there with a partner and have their own story to tell. They aren't there to lecture, just support.

The thing is, most of the pro-choice advocates I see in the media are women. We are already driving the campaign, so I'm not sure why exactly this woman is so angry at men who are empathising with us and supporting us. I haven't seen any men trying to take over the platform...

marienbad

eviltwin wrote: »

I don't object to men at pro choice events, the more the merrier. Men will never be pregnant or have an abortion but many have been there with a partner and have their own story to tell. They aren't there to lecture, just support.

and every vote is needed , lets be real here.

Ralphdejones

Clandestine wrote: »

EDIT: Found this (top of the page):

Wow, that's some representative for the pro choice side. I hope they put her on TV

Godge

Piliger wrote: »

Mixing two completely different issues doesn't help anything. We have an essentially free healthcare service paid for by the tax payers. If someone comes to the country who can't speak English I don't believe it is our responsibility to fix that. if she has no money then she shouldn't be coming here in the first place. This kind of appalling entitlement mind set is an abomination im my view. I do not believe our system should be there to fix every ill and every issue for everyone. People have a responsibility to deal with some things themselves.
.

Interesting point, and by the same token, we shouldn't be exporting our women to England to have abortions, we should allow them to have them here.

Godge

Ralphdejones wrote: »

Wow, that's some representative for the pro choice side. I hope they put her on TV

As long as they have someone like you for the pro-life side, she will have no problem.

Mountainsandh

mrsbyrne wrote: »

I had a very bad experience myself this night 17 years ago but I meet brand new mums every week and their all as happy as could be. Must he just you and me! We just were no good at the birthing bis!

Mine were nearly 9 and 6 years ago, not that long ago.
Both were poor experiences, I have to say mostly due to the consultants/obs. I have a massive hang up about the way they treat women, and tbh most of the midwives I met adopted a similar stance, whereby they don't tell you anything, they don't even attempt or intend to explain anything to you about what is happening, what could happen, or is about to happen to your body, procedures, and possible problems. They don't listen to you either.
I am a post graduate, but possibly because I presented as a public patient (that's what most Irish people tell me) I was treated as if I hadn't a brain cell in my head. Most women post graduate or not can understand what is happening when it is explained.

I learned, and I was better equipped the second time around, but I felt I was coming into battle, and I had to sustain that battle for my entire 2nd pregnancy right to the day of delivery. I was battling to be told what options I had, to have things explained to me, and then I was battling to have my choices heard. That's definitely not how I envisage maternity.
After a final argument with my obs in the second pregnancy second last appointment, she shoved my file into a visiting/sub's hands and told him "you can take her" (I overheard her in the hall). Things went well with the sub actually, he listened, fancy that, and thankfully the end of that pregnancy went very well. Pity the battle up to then was a great source of worry for 3/4 of the pregnancy.

As I mentioned before in this thread, of women of my generation that I know, 50% are unhappy with their experience, both private and public.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

I can definitely understand that woman's point, but honestly she must have realised that that was going to come across as quite alienating. Also, it's going to be quoted out of context and only partially by anti-choice people, it probably already is.

I'd also say that in my experience most people who've I've come across that are involved in pro-choice campaigning are women. The more men involved the better, quite frankly, because the reality is otherwise it gets ghettoised as a "women's issue". I think men can actually be a bit wary of speaking about it because of a perception that it is a women's issue and they don't want to overstep their bounds. Shouting at people to know their place and check their privilege is completely counterproductive in 95% of cases, it's just ideological self-indulgence rather than proactive engagement with people and issues

Godge

Ralphdejones wrote: »

You can be her mangina

Resorting to personal insults when you run out of arguments? Classy!

The point I was making that when faced with the one-dimensional male arguments presented here by yourself and others, she doesn't sound so bad. Wasn't insulting you personally at all, just think the arguments you and others make are very weak and show no understanding or empathy. That would come across very clearly in a TV debate.

Mountainsandh

Gustavo CoolS Quote wrote: »

I can definitely understand that woman's point, but honestly she must have realised that that was going to come across as quite alienating. Also, it's going to be quoted out of context and only partially by anti-choice people, it probably already is.

I'd also say that in my experience most people who've I've come across that are involved in pro-choice campaigning are women. The more men involved the better, quite frankly, because the reality is otherwise it gets ghettoised as a "women's issue". I think men can actually be a bit wary of speaking about it because of a perception that it is a women's issue and they don't want to overstep their bounds. Shouting at people to know their place and check their privilege is completely counterproductive in 95% of cases, it's just ideological self-indulgence rather than proactive engagement with people and issues

She's got airquotes issues alright, that wouldn't fully put me off joining a protest, but it kind of would a little bit because I would hate to have the protest I joined portrayed in the media in that manner.
She could have made her valid point in a lot more elegant and palatable manner, it would have been a lot less cringy for the same impact.

Ralphdejones

Godge wrote: »

Resorting to personal insults when you run out of arguments? Classy!

The point I was making that when faced with the one-dimensional male arguments presented here by yourself and others, she doesn't sound so bad. Wasn't insulting you personally at all, just think the arguments you and others make are very weak and show no understanding or empathy. That would come across very clearly in a TV debate.

Take it to your leader, but remember you'll have to 'know your place' lol

P_1

Unfortunately you tend to get the more extreme elements at rallies in Ireland which often has the effect of turning the moderates off their cause

takamichinoku

Awkward Badger wrote: »

Telling men to know their place and their input is worth less than a woman's because its a women's movement and men get enough opportunity to have a platform to talk about issues ?

I mean, there's a fair point in there imo, I can see how some pro-choice arguments from men could be infuriating; I'm sure I've spouted some fierce ****e on the matter. Would keep my nose out of the issue entirely if the options weren't "choice" vs "no choice" (which, to be honest, I think men can debate on quite a bit).

Tempted to say "not the best time/place/way to express that point though" because I'm not responding very positively to it but when/where/how is? I haven't a clue.
imo, it's probably not the best way anyway; beginning by targeting the actual people there, "know your place", very autocratic so it's basically trying to provoke corrections (in my head anyway)...

hotmail.com

P_1 wrote: »

Unfortunately you tend to get the more extreme elements at rallies in Ireland which often has the effect of turning the moderates off their cause

What is a moderate in relation to this topic?

jill_valentine

hotmail.com wrote: »

What is a moderate in relation to this topic?

Wouldn't that be the position where either having an abortion or not having an abortion would both be considered valid choices?

P_1

hotmail.com wrote: »

What is a moderate in relation to this topic?

Hmm that's actually a very good question.

I guess the moderates could be considered as those who view it less of a black/white issue and can appreciate the various shades of grey and nuances that are contained within it.

hotmail.com

jill_valentine wrote: »

Wouldn't that be the position where either having an abortion or not having an abortion would both be considered valid choices?

That would be pro-choice surely?

takamichinoku

jill_valentine wrote: »

Wouldn't that be the position where either having an abortion or not having an abortion would both be considered valid choices?

Having the choice to have an abortion or not having the choice to have an abortion, you mean?

hotmail.com

P_1 wrote: »

Hmm that's actually a very good question.

I guess the moderates could be considered as those who view it less of a black/white issue and can appreciate the various shades of grey and nuances that are contained within it.

What are the nuances?

I guess you may be referring to moderates as people who don't mind abortions in certain situations, like rape or incest, but they don't agree with the abortion regime that exists in Britain.

Edit: I believe this to be hypocritical and contradictory to the extreme. But there are many people now moving into this category and are seemingly happy with thousands of Irish women having their abortions elsewhere.

P_1

hotmail.com wrote: »

What are the nuances?

I guess you may be referring to moderates as people who don't mind abortions in certain situations, like rape or incest, but they don't agree with the abortion regime that exists in Britain.

Possibly. For example in my case I'd consider an abortion done after the foetus has developed sentience to be morally questionable but I wouldn't consider it my business to tell the mother what to do.