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woman refused abortion - Mod Note in first post.

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    #2342
    swampgas
    Registered Users Posts: 3,563 ✭✭✭swampgas


    mrsbyrne wrote: »
    Whst are talking about ? The baby is in a NICU unit receiving the best of care? Where did you think it was?!

    I was (sarcastically) suggesting the baby be sent to England because it's what we do with women who need abortions - export the problem to someone else. It wasn't a serious suggestion, and I'm sure the baby is getting excellent care.


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    #2343
    mrsbyrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,228 ✭✭✭mrsbyrne


    Grayson wrote: »
    It's weird. It means a citizen of a foreign country is currently in the care of the HSE. Are they allowed foster out the baby? Can the baby be adopted here? Or does the baby have to be deported?

    Many of the children in care in this country at the moment are not Irish citizens.
    Living in Ireland is not subject to being an Irish citizen. If you are seriously trying to imply that the State would deport a child in care then I presume it is just a childish attempt at sensationalism on your behalf.


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    #2344
    mrsbyrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,228 ✭✭✭mrsbyrne


    Akrasia wrote: »
    That's because they're picking their battles

    They know that they're outnumbered and would definitely lose a referendum to remove the right to travel (as they already have, twice) so they're focusing their attention on maintaining the restrictions that are already in place.

    When there was talk of abortion clinics opening up in Northern ireland, the irish catholic lobby were up in arms because the trip to belfast is much easier and more affordable than a trip to liverpool. This shows that they are opposed to women travelling for abortions just as much as they are opposed to abortions here in ireland.

    I wonder how influential the irish catholics were in maintaining the restrictive' 'legal framework' for abortions in Northern ireland (only in the case of an immediate risk to the life of the mother or risk of long term physical or mental trauma, and only up to 9 weeks gestation)

    I know you've serious issues with RCC but you'll find that the whole Protestant/Presbyterian brethren in NI would be far more vocal about abortion then the Taigs. As is their absolute entitlement.


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    #2345
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    mrsbyrne wrote: »
    Many of the children in care in this country at the moment are not Irish citizens.
    Living in Ireland is not subject to being an Irish citizen. If you are seriously trying to imply that the State would deport a child in care then I presume it is just a childish attempt at sensationalism on your behalf.



    http://www.wsm.ie/c/hidden-view-asylum-deportation-ireland


    "A cloak of invisibility has hidden from view the dreadful conditions that asylum-seekers are forced to live in, and allowed the mass deportations of men, women and children, including children born in Ireland or who arrived at a very young age, and have no experience of the countries to which they were deported."


    Even if the HSE doesn't deport the child, the child will have no right to stay in Ireland once it turns 18.


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    #2346
    mrsbyrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,228 ✭✭✭mrsbyrne


    swampgas wrote: »
    I was (sarcastically) suggesting the baby be sent to England because it's what we do with women who need abortions - export the problem to someone else. It wasn't a serious suggestion, and I'm sure the baby is getting excellent care.

    This baby is neither nuisance nor inconvenience to the Irish state, only to those who feel it should have been killed. Please God the baby and it's mother will recover from their ordeal and find safe shelter in Ireland . I'm sure in years to come the chiodvwill be gratefully to the doctor who saved his life.


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    #2347
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    mrsbyrne wrote: »
    This baby is neither nuisance nor inconvenience to the Irish state, only to those who feel it should have been killed. Please God the baby and it's mother will recover from their ordeal and find safe shelter in Ireland . I'm sure in years to come the chiodvwill be gratefully to the doctor who saved his life.

    If the baby lives that long and then if it can speak, think, function.


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    #2348
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,799 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    mrsbyrne wrote: »
    This baby is neither nuisance nor inconvenience to the Irish state, only to those who feel it should have been killed. Please God the baby and it's mother will recover from their ordeal and find safe shelter in Ireland . I'm sure in years to come the chiodvwill be gratefully to the doctor who saved his life.

    Possibly. Or the child might think it was awful that his/her mother was raped and subsequently denied an abortion even though it would mean he/she would never be born.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #2349
    kylith
    Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    mrsbyrne wrote: »
    This baby is neither nuisance nor inconvenience to the Irish state, only to those who feel it should have been killed. Please God the baby and it's mother will recover from their ordeal and find safe shelter in Ireland . I'm sure in years to come the chiodvwill be gratefully to the doctor who saved his life.

    Looking at it dispassionately the child is receiving care at the expense of the Irish public. It is likely that the child, should it survive, will continue to require care for the rest of it's life, at the expense of the Irish public. I hope that this is not the case, and that the child will find a loving home where it can grow up healthy and normal and have a happy and productive life, but the fact of the matter is that the denial of a termination at an early stage of gestation and a delivery at the very cusp of viability means that there is an 80% of the child having serious health problems and thus being unlikely to be adopted or to find a foster family. I have yet to see a statement from any pro-life organisation offering to fund this care.

    I know that people will attempt to paint me as heartless and unsympathetic, but that is simply not the case; I have nothing but sympathy for the woman and the infant in this case. It is my opinion that the insistence of Irish law of Life at any cost, rather than taking quality of life into account, has ruined two lives. Had a termination been carried out when it was initially requested there would now not be a child to suffer.


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    #2350
    MrPudding
    Registered Users Posts: 9,788 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    Godge wrote: »
    http://www.wsm.ie/c/hidden-view-asylum-deportation-ireland


    "A cloak of invisibility has hidden from view the dreadful conditions that asylum-seekers are forced to live in, and allowed the mass deportations of men, women and children, including children born in Ireland or who arrived at a very young age, and have no experience of the countries to which they were deported."


    Even if the HSE doesn't deport the child, the child will have no right to stay in Ireland once it turns 18.
    After the amendment there is no automatic right to citizenship. That there is no automatic right is not the same as saying citizenship is not possible. I would guess that the baby's legal team will apply for citizenship on its behalf. I would like to think that this application would be treated favourably, give. The circumstances of its conception and birth. By the way, I am using 'its' because I don't recall the sex of the child, not as an attempt to dehumanise it on account of me being a filthy supporter of child murder.

    MrP


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    #2351
    kylith
    Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    SW wrote: »
    Possibly. Or the child might think it was awful that his/her mother was raped and subsequently denied an abortion even though it would mean he/she would never be born.

    There is a documentary about a man with EB, a condition which causes the skin to blister at the slightest touch. In it his mother states that if there had been a test for the condition when she was pregnant she would have had an abortion, and the man agreed with her. The idea that any life is better than no life is simply wrong. He made the best of his short life that he could, but he said himself that he would prefer never to have been born.


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    #2352
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,799 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    kylith wrote: »
    There is a documentary about a man with EB, a condition which causes the skin to blister at the slightest touch. In it his mother states that if there had been a test for the condition when she was pregnant she would have had an abortion, and the man agreed with her. The idea that any life is better than no life is simply wrong. He made the best of his short life that he could, but he said himself that he would prefer never to have been born.

    Might have seen that one. Was an English guy who eventually went abroad to avail of euthanasia.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #2353
    kylith
    Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    SW wrote: »
    Might have seen that one. Was an English guy who eventually went abroad to avail of euthanasia.

    I don't know, I believe that in this case he died of natural causes, but I could be misremembering. He had the Heinz logo engraved on his coffin.


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    #2354
    mrsbyrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,228 ✭✭✭mrsbyrne


    Godge wrote: »
    http://www.wsm.ie/c/hidden-view-asylum-deportation-ireland


    "A cloak of invisibility has hidden from view the dreadful conditions that asylum-seekers are forced to live in, and allowed the mass deportations of men, women and children, including children born in Ireland or who arrived at a very young age, and have no experience of the countries to which they were deported."


    Even if the HSE doesn't deport the child, the child will have no right to stay in Ireland once it turns 18.
    By then it will be an Irish citizen through Naturalisation. You seriously need to read up on your citizenship procedures and I hope your not advising anybody.


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    #2355
    mrsbyrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,228 ✭✭✭mrsbyrne


    SW wrote: »
    Possibly. Or the child might think it was awful that his/her mother was raped and subsequently denied an abortion even though it would mean he/she would never be born.

    Of course that's s natural human reaction. "I'm here and I shouldn't be because I should have been killed. I feel so bad for being here. Somebody should just go ahead and kill me now, it's not too late. That will make everything right". Seriously. Are you for real?


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    #2356
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,799 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    mrsbyrne wrote: »
    Of course that's s natural human reaction. "I'm here and I shouldn't be because I should have been killed. I feel so bad for being here. Somebody should just go ahead and kill me now, it's not too late. That will make everything right". Seriously. Are you for real?

    Well it would go better if you didn't ascribe things I didn't say to me.

    I said that the child may perhaps feel bad that his/her mother was raped and denied an abortion. And on some level wish his/her mother was never raped or had been offered an abortion.

    Is that so hard to empathise with?

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #2357
    Calina
    Registered Users Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Calina


    mrsbyrne wrote: »
    Of course that's s natural human reaction. "I'm here and I shouldn't be because I should have been killed. I feel so bad for being here. Somebody should just go ahead and kill me now, it's not too late. That will make everything right". Seriously. Are you for real?

    Ahem, sometimes I wonder about the simplistic way you look at the world. It is entirely possible for someone to take the view that perhaps, their mother might have merited an abortion at the time, but that acceptance is not, in itself, automatically followed up with "somebody should just go ahead and kill me now that will make everything right". It is not an automatic follow on.

    You see, you are looking at the world in absolute terms. Unfortunately the world doesn't work that way and sometimes, the world deals with what happens, not "what is right" or "what should have happened" or "what should happen". Mostly, in fact.


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    #2358
    Mountainsandh
    Registered Users Posts: 6,700 ✭✭✭Mountainsandh


    mrsbyrne wrote: »
    Of course that's s natural human reaction. "I'm here and I shouldn't be because I should have been killed. I feel so bad for being here. Somebody should just go ahead and kill me now, it's not too late. That will make everything right". Seriously. Are you for real?

    I think it pretty likely actually, that if the person lives and is able to reason, and learns of their story, they might have serious such psychological problems.
    That's not wishing it on the person, it's just stating the obvious.

    edit : hopefully if they do have psychological sequels, it will not stretch to the ridiculous "somebody... kill me now it's not too late" statement.


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    #2359
    Sarky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 31,967 ✭✭✭✭Sarky


    Calina wrote: »
    You see, you are looking at the world in absolute terms. Unfortunately the world doesn't work that way and sometimes, the world deals with what happens, not "what is right" or "what should have happened" or "what should happen". Mostly, in fact.

    I've noticed something funny recently about folks who tell everyone the world is black and white. A lot of the time if you put them on the spot with a hard question on some awful case and what THEY would do, they suddenly, magically manage to find a whole load of shades of morality.


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    #2360
    Awkward Badger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,414 ✭✭✭Awkward Badger


    mrsbyrne wrote: »
    Of course that's s natural human reaction. "I'm here and I shouldn't be because I should have been killed. I feel so bad for being here. Somebody should just go ahead and kill me now, it's not too late. That will make everything right". Seriously. Are you for real?

    I think my mother should have had access to abortion and to be perfectly honest were I in her place with the option I'd have had an abortion.

    Yet I don't feel the slightest bit bad about being here or wish I was dead. Its just a simple fact that were it an option at the time it would have been a perfectly acceptable option to take.


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    #2361
    Ralphdejones
    Closed Accounts Posts: 581 ✭✭✭Ralphdejones


    Sarky wrote: »
    I've noticed something funny recently about folks who tell everyone the world is black and white. A lot of the time if you put them on the spot with a hard question on some awful case and what THEY would do, they suddenly, magically manage to find a whole load of shades of morality.

    And thankfully the powers at be realise this, that's why there are two people alive today.
    No one who wants the child dead, has thought about themselves being in the childs position.


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    #2362
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,799 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    And thankfully the powers at be realise this, that's why there are two people alive today.

    So the powers that be understood that simply stating "No abortions" isn't reasonable, and that's why two people are alive today? :confused:

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #2363
    Ralphdejones
    Closed Accounts Posts: 581 ✭✭✭Ralphdejones


    mrsbyrne wrote: »
    Of course that's s natural human reaction. "I'm here and I shouldn't be because I should have been killed. I feel so bad for being here. Somebody should just go ahead and kill me now, it's not too late. That will make everything right". Seriously. Are you for real?

    If an innocent child does manage to surive abortion, it's important in some camps to stigmatise them forever.


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    #2364
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,799 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    If an innocent child does manage to surive abortion, it's important in some camps to stigmatise them forever.

    Excuse me? Where did I stigmatise the child? I offered a reasonable counter-point to what msrbyrne posted.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #2365
    Sarky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 31,967 ✭✭✭✭Sarky


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    If an innocent child does manage to surive abortion, it's important in some camps to stigmatise them forever.

    You're the only one who mentioned stigma. You might want to stop, just in case anyone thinks you're stigmatising people.


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    #2366
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    If an innocent child does manage to surive abortion, it's important in some camps to stigmatise them forever.


    Are you going to start throwing this BS out again? :rolleyes:


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    #2367
    Akrasia
    Registered Users Posts: 22,424 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    mrsbyrne wrote: »
    I know you've serious issues with RCC but you'll find that the whole Protestant/Presbyterian brethren in NI would be far more vocal about abortion then the Taigs. As is their absolute entitlement.

    I have serious problems with these guys too, don't worry. I was just speculating about how much cooperation they might have received from the religous right south of the border as they campaigned against the liberalisation of the abortion laws.


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    #2368
    ProfessorPlum
    Registered Users Posts: 1,812 ✭✭✭ProfessorPlum


    Regarding the citizenship issue, if the child is entitled to citizenship if his mother's country or any other country, he will be a citizen of there. There's a provision in the Nationality and Citizenship act that allows for a child born in Ireland to be automatically entitled to irish citizenship if he does not qualify for citizenship elsewhere. So it seems at least he won't be stateless.


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    #2369
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Any prolifer care to weigh in on whether they think the right to travel to kill an unborn child in another country should be repealed?


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    #2370
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    mrsbyrne wrote: »
    By then it will be an Irish citizen through Naturalisation. You seriously need to read up on your citizenship procedures and I hope your not advising anybody.

    Nope, it is much more complicated than that.


    http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/irish_citizenship/becoming_an_irish_citizen_through_naturalisation.html

    (1) Child is child of asylum seeker, if mother is denied entry and residence status in the long run, child's time in Ireland does not count towards residency

    (2) Self-supporting rule - you can't just turn 18 and apply, If mother rejects child, child fails on self-supporting rule.


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    #2371
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    lazygal wrote: »
    Any prolifer care to weigh in on whether they think the right to travel to kill an unborn child in another country should be repealed?

    Of course not, they have been asked this question several times and ignored the question.

    They are happy to send the problem to England.


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