woman refused abortion - Mod Note in first post.

_Whimsical_

bumper234 wrote: »

What state the mothers mind is in now after being forced to keep the child, that's another thing.

I think the legislation that governed this option provided for a child born in these circumstances to become a ward of the state. She won't have to keep the baby.

I can't help thinking of the baby now who may go on to be adopted, know her birth date and how rare adoption of Irish babies to Irish couples is and may someday google and come across this story. It's pretty horrific to think that your mother could not even allow you those few extra weeks of gestation but would rather risk you suffering developmental problems associated with early delivery to have you gone from her body.
Yes mental illness is a real,severe and life threatening condition in some cases but it is so sad to think a child will someday learn that this was how he/she came into the world.

I imagine she's quiet young and went into a blind panic when she realised she was pregnant. Not one of knows how we would have reacted in that situation. My thoughts and good wishes are with both for a full and speedy recovery.

Cleveland Hot Pocket

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

No, there is a difference between fetus and viable fetus.
I think in my own case I would not be in favor of theoretically me having and abortion at >24 weeks (as a man, I can't have one anyway - hence the theoretical)
However I am still undecided as to what I think should be the legal limit for abortions for others.

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

Yes, which is why I believe that the difference between fetus and viable fetus at 24 weeks is all important.

So exactly 24 weeks would be the limit in the law if it were down to you?

Morag

Nodin wrote: »

Not known at the moment, nor is why she wanted the abortion (as in why she was suicidal).

Actually no -

"The woman was in the second trimester of the pregnancy when she discovered she was pregnant and requested the abortion, which was refused."
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/health/baby-delivered-as-woman-refused-abortion-under-law-30512513.html

2nd trimester starts at 13 weeks

ProfessorPlum

mrsbyrne wrote: »

No. It was refused as she was deemed not suicidal. Of course the baby would have been aborted if she'd been genuinely suicidal. Theres no limit.

There seems to be some confusion as to the legislation in this area. The law allows for a termination of pregnancy where there is a significant risk to the mother's life. As confirmed by the Masters of the maternity hospitals, if the foetus is viable, the termination will be a delivery not an abortion, as seems to have happened in this case. There is no risk of term or almost term babies being 'murdered' as a result if this legislation, as some here would have you think.

Morag

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Hang on the panel of psychiatrists ruled she was a suicide risk and they refused the abortion?! That is completely out of line with the legislation.

And they had time to assess her, make a ruling, her go on hunger strike, HSE take her to the high court and a second date to be set before this happened. There's no way that happened in less than a month in this country so it seems like she was in early second trimester when this all began.

It really reads like they were afraid to give her the termination even with the new legislation so they delayed and persuaded her long enough for the child to be ~24 weeks when they could take a middle ground

Yep some country we live in

_Whimsical_

ProfessorPlum wrote: »

There seems to be some confusion as to the legislation in this area. The law allows for a termination of pregnancy where there is a significant risk to the mother's life. As confirmed by the Masters of the maternity hospitals, if the foetus is viable, the termination will be a delivery not an abortion, as seems to have happened in this case. There is no risk of term or almost term babies being 'murdered' as a result if this legislation, as some here would have you think.

There is risk of babies being born early with severe disabilities due to being premature and left as wards of the state rather than with the support system of a loving parent that they need in such circumstances though.

takamichinoku

RDM_83 again wrote: »

I'm sort of curious about the logic behind some the outraged posts in this thread, does the attachment of the umbilical cord mean that the mother has absolute rights to the fate of the fetus no matter what stage of development because that seems to be the argument being put forwards?
Wether your profile or pro-choice there is very solid reasons why on a global scale 24 weeks is the upper limit for abortion (exludes canada etc)

Dunno if I count as one of the more outraged posters, but I basically do think she has quite a big say a long distance into developments. However, at a certain point it becomes the state's responsibility to ensure that the woman recognises the scale of the issue, becoming severely restrictive after 24 weeks makes a hell of a lot of sense in that regard but I can still see several reasons for cases beyond that.

Ireland's approach of seemingly thinking it's okay to get away with not updating their laws because England is right next door is a joke and a case like this one just highlights it.

Awkward Badger

According to this article she was determined to be at risk of suicide by the psychiatrists on the panel but the obstetrician said it could be delivered as it was far enough into the pregnancy as she only realised she was pregnant in the second trimester.

She was denied the abortion on that grounds, refused to have the baby, went on hunger strike and the HSE went to the high court to get an order to stop her starving herself. Seems they got an order only to hydrate her as she wasn't on hunger strike long.

While I think the doctors made the right judgement in accordance with the legislation I have to say I don't find this to be an ideal situation. Where a suicidal woman is refused an abortion when she applies after finding out she's pregnant and whether she agreed or not its clear it didn't matter as the HSE could force her to hydrate, eat and have the baby against her will.

Phoebas

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Hang on the panel of psychiatrists ruled she was a suicide risk and they refused the abortion?! That is completely out of line with the legislation.

And they had time to assess her, make a ruling, her go on hunger strike, HSE take her to the high court and a second date to be set before this happened. There's no way that happened in less than a month in this country so it seems like she was in early second trimester when this all began.

It really reads like they were afraid to give her the termination even with the new legislation so they delayed and persuaded her long enough for the child to be ~24 weeks when they could take a middle ground

A whole lot of speculation helping you to arrive at your favourite conclusion there.

Morag

We won't see any more changes to the law in regards to abortion until we have a referendum to re move Article 40.3.3 also know as the 8th amendment from our constitution. No law can contradict our constitution.

Finna Fail and Finna Gael do not want to have a referendum on this, spouting on about how it is the will of the people but no one under the ages of 49 got to vote on this issue.

www.repealthe8th.ie

shruikan2553

Selips wrote: »

Ridiculous, who said women are just objects to be use to make new people? Sell crazy elsewhere.

A woman gets pregnant. She doesn't want to be pregnant. She is told that tough ****, you must go through with a pregnancy and **** any affects it might have on you. I know we dont exactly have the best record with treating pregnant women as people but maybe we could start and listen to what they want instead of telling them what some random person thinks is best for her.

Cleveland Hot Pocket

Deleted User wrote: »

So exactly 24 weeks would be the limit in the law if it were down to you?

Yes, as it is in many other first world countries across the globe afaik

Cleveland Hot Pocket

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

Yes, as it is in many other first world countries across the globe afaik

So you're just slightly less or a pro-life nutjob than I apparently am?

Rubberchikken

why are the irish so afraid of having legal abortion?
if it were in place, it isn't as if every pregnant woman is going to rush out to avail of it's services.

this country is run by religious males, as as long as it is, there will only be half-assed attempts to give women full control of their bodies.

ProfessorPlum

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

There is risk of babies being born early with severe disabilities due to being premature and left as wards of the state rather than with the support system of a loving parent that they need in such circumstances though.

That's very true, and it's far from an ideal situation. However, the rights of the mother and the child have to be balanced, and neither will be left entirely unscathed by the very nature of their competing rights. The alternative are to abort a viable foetus or to allow a very real (but preventable) risk to a woman's life to develop further. Very much a rock and a hard place.

_Whimsical_

It is such a messy situation. I have never experienced mental illness and I am very grateful for that but I have seen other people I have known well go through it. One thing that I've seen be distinct in those people at the time was that they were not themselves, they made decisions they would not have sanely made, spent money they wouldn't have spent sanely,destroyed relationships with close friends and family because of paranoia.They were not periods in which the could make rational decisions with long reaching consequences.

I personally think a mid-late term abortion is an enormous decision to put in the hands of a person with severe mental illness. What if when they're better they are consumed by grief over a decision they'd never normally have made ?What if even worse their baby is delivered early as in this case but suffers disability because of the premature birth? How would the mother go on to live with that guilt and pain when she is again well, particularly if its a decision made in a haze of mental illhealth and she wouldn't have made otherwise?

marienbad

So now we have come to the point where we force a suicidal young woman to undergo an medical procedure she doesn't want.

If she had refused the caesarean would she have been restrained from leaving and given intravenous feeding or what ?

And is this the precedent now , the psychiatrist are overruled and the obstetrician makes the decision that if the foetus is viable the patient must have a caesarean ?

Phoebas

Rubberchikken wrote: »

why are the irish so afraid of having legal abortion?

We have legal abortion - just a very fairly restrictive version.

Rubberchikken wrote: »

this country is run by religious males, as as long as it is, there will only be half-assed attempts to give women full control of their bodies.

No jurisdiction on earth gives women full control of their bodies.

Phoebas

marienbad wrote: »

If she had refused the caesarean would she have been restrained from leaving and given intravenous feeding or what ?

She'd probably be free to walk out the hospital door or avail of the range of other prenatal services they provide.
In any case, she agreed to the caesarean.

_Whimsical_

marienbad wrote: »

And is this the precedent now , the psychiatrist are overruled and the obstetrician makes the decision that if the foetus is viable the patient must have a caesarean ?

This is what we legislated for.
It's amazing how many people did not understand exactly what the legislation being passed was.

Also countless evidence was given on peer reviewed research that found that abortion is not a cure for suicidal ideation. It does not make a mother less likely to commit suicide afterwards and does not end her mental health problems.

Morag

marienbad wrote: »

So now we have come to the point where we force a suicidal young woman to undergo an medical procedure she doesn't want.

If she had refused the caesarean would she have been restrained from leaving and given intravenous feeding or what ?

And is this the precedent now , the psychiatrist are overruled and the obstetrician makes the decision that if the foetus is viable the patient must have a caesarean ?

They would have went to the High Court and got an order to preform the C Section against her will.

IT had been done before, the 8th amendment allows for it.

marienbad

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

This is what we legislated for.
It's amazing how many people did not understand exactly what the legislation being passed was.

Also countless evidence was given on peer reviewed research that found that abortion is not a cure for suicidal ideation. It does not make a mother less likely to commit suicide afterwards and does not end her mental health problems.

I am not going into it now as it is a an argument that is done and dusted but the cliché that 'abortion is not a cure for suicidal ideation' is a meaningless trope pulled out for that referendum.

The question now is if we are to follow the logic of our legislation and this precedent is -

- is the obstetrician the final arbiter in such cases .
- is the girl refuses a caesarean and is deemed suicidal , can she be restrained on that basis until the baby is delivered .
-is she refuses food and water can she be restrained and force fed

Morag

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

This is what we legislated for.
It's amazing how many people did not understand exactly what the legislation being passed was.

Also countless evidence was given on peer reviewed research that found that abortion is not a cure for suicidal ideation. It does not make a mother less likely to commit suicide afterwards and does not end her mental health problems.

If someone is suicidal because they are pregnant and do not wish to be, then yes having an abortion which means they are no longer pregnant would stop most of anxiety.

_Whimsical_

marienbad wrote: »

I am not going into it now as it is a an argument that is done and dusted but the cliché that 'abortion is not a cure for suicidal ideation' is a meaningless trope pulled out for that referendum.

Morag wrote: »

If someone is suicidal because they are pregnant and do not wish to be, then yes having an abortion which means they are no longer pregnant would stop most of anxiety.

It's not "meaningless trope" at all. It is the result of a huge volume of respected, peer reviewed research on the subject. It's not opinion, it's objective fact. It is not disputed by anyone on any side of the argument.

Phoebas

Morag wrote: »

They would have went to the High Court and got an order to preform the C Section against her will.

Is there some procedural manual that you're getting this from or is it just your own speculation presented as fact?

Czarcasm

Phoebas wrote: »

She'd probably be free to walk out the hospital door or avail of the range of other prenatal services they provide.
In any case, she agreed to the caesarean.

In any case, her wishes were ignored in favour of forcing her to give birth against her will. What she wanted was an abortion, not a caesarean. She had no choice but to agree to a caesarean when it was decided that despite the risk of suicide, she could still be force fed and forced to give birth.

This decision completely contradicts legislation that allows for abortion if the woman is at risk of dying by suicide.

_Whimsical_

marienbad wrote: »

The question now is if we are to follow the logic of our legislation and this precedent is -

- is the obstetrician the final arbiter in such cases .
- is the girl refuses a caesarean and is deemed suicidal , can she be restrained on that basis until the baby is delivered .
-is she refuses food and water can she be restrained and force fed

The obstetrician would be the arbiter yes.
I presume if she's deemed a very serious suicide risk that they could perhaps do a caesarean without her consent. This has happened in the UK where mentally ill women were deemed to be a risk to themselves even though they were not reporting as suicidal themselves and actively wanted to continue their pregnancy.
Anyone who refuses food and water in the care of medical professionals will be force fed. It is their job to save lives. They will not facilitate suicide by any means , even starvation.

Morag

Phoebas wrote: »

Is there some procedural manual that you're getting this from or is it just your own speculation presented as fact?

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/hospital-sought-court-order-to-force-mother-to-have-csection-29120379.html

PeteFalk78

Morag wrote: »

If someone is suicidal because they are pregnant and do not wish to be, then yes having an abortion which means they are no longer pregnant would stop most of anxiety.

That's an amazingly simplistic viewpoint you have there.