woman refused abortion - Mod Note in first post.

Godge

geret wrote: »

you can bring your 16 year old to Italy and buy them beer
no prosecution no return
why?
because it's legal in Italy
your theory doesn't hold

It is perfectly legal in Ireland to give beer to a child under 18 in a domestic home. Try again.

swampgas

geret wrote: »

you can bring your 16 year old to Italy and buy them beer
no prosecution no return
why?
because it's legal in Italy
your theory doesn't hold

Because giving beer to a 16-year old is the same thing as killing an unborn baby? That's your argument? Come on, you can do better than that.

geret

swampgas wrote: »

Because giving beer to a 16-year old is the same thing as killing an unborn baby? That's your argument? Come on, you can do better than that.

The statement

Godge wrote: »

The only time that you can bring a child abroad and do something to it that is illegal in Ireland is when it is a fetus and you can abort it. So your answer does not answer the question...

is false

swampgas

geret wrote: »

The statement is false

Great work with the nit-picking. Care to actually debate the issue?

takamichinoku

So one thing I've learned from this thread is that each time someone says the "mangina", my opinion of them drops a bit more. Even if I had a pretty low opinion of them already, like, there doesn't even seem to be a limit on it. My opinion of myself just dropped there from saying it. It's the stupidest word I've ever heard, can't even picture an adult saying it, maybe an 11 year old who endlessly quotes Austin Powers or something.




Quick google for its origin says:

"The word "Mangina"was used in the 2005 movie "Deuce Bigalow: Male Gigolo" starring Rob Schneider.

So I was scarily close to being accurate up above!

Godge

swampgas wrote: »

Great work with the nit-picking. Care to actually debate the issue?

They can't.

There is nothing on the pro-life websites to assist them in answering this question as to why abortion isn't covered by the 2008 Trafficking Act.

Ralphdejones

swampgas wrote: »

So, do you think abortion is a crime?

A legal crime ? no, wrong to kill a child when there are lots of other options, yes

swampgas wrote: »

Would you support decriminalizing abortion in Ireland?

It is, abortion is available in Ireland

Mountainsandh

Ralphdejones wrote: »

For you I will indeed. back in a mo

EDIT, can you give me post no. or link

post #2439 there's a link in it

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=91841235&postcount=2439

Ralphdejones

Mountainsandh wrote: »

post #2439 there's a link in it

Cheers. In a nutshell, there are two innocent lives involved, not one, and neither of them have done anything wrong, and thankfully both of them are alive today.

geret

Godge wrote: »

They can't.

There is nothing on the pro-life websites to assist them in answering this question as to why abortion isn't covered by the 2008 Trafficking Act.

I could always make stuff up

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

Ralphdejones wrote: »

A legal crime ? no, wrong to kill a child when there are lots of other options, yes

But it's literally killing a child according to you? Like it's the same thing as killing a toddler?

swampgas

Ralphdejones wrote: »

A legal crime ? no, wrong to kill a child when there are lots of other options, yes.

If you don't think it should be a legal crime, would you support removing article 40.3.3 from the constitution?

It is, abortion is available in Ireland

Abortion is available in Ireland? Really?

Can you explain why so many women still travel abroad, at considerable expense, when they could have an abortion here instead?

swampgas

geret wrote: »

I could always make stuff up

I'm not sure you've got the imagination. But go ahead, surprise me.

bumper234

Godge wrote: »

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=mangina&page=2

I meant what did he mean by posting it? He whinges about personal attacks and then seems to throw one out himself.

Godge

Ralphdejones wrote: »

A legal crime ? no, wrong to kill a child when there are lots of other options, yes



It is, abortion is available in Ireland

This post takes the biscuit.

If abortion is not a legal crime in Ireland, there is nothing to stop an abortion clinic offering its services under any circumstances to any woman up until ten minutes before they give birth. You really don't have a clue.

Godge

bumper234 wrote: »

I meant what did he mean by posting it? He whinges about personal attacks and then seems to throw one out himself.

It is for when he runs out of answers.

SaoirseRose

Ralphdejones wrote: »

Cheers. In a nutshell, there are two innocent lives involved, not one, and neither of them have done anything wrong, and thankfully both of them are alive today.

You have really, really missed the point.

You have no idea. None. If you did, you wouldn't be so flippant.

How dare you, how dare you tell a woman what she can and cannot deal with following a trauma you couldn't even begin to comprehend. How fcuking dare you. How dare you sentence her to a life sentence itself, when she's already dying inside.

I cut people like you out of my life a long time ago, and it's something I will never regret.

takamichinoku

Godge wrote: »

It is for when he runs out of answers.

It really should be for people to know there's absolutely no point engaging with him. I know that's damn near impossible (sure I can't even myself), especially on an internet forum, but it just keeps dragging the discussion back to more and more thorough answers to his challenges that are just completely ignored.

Honestly hasn't displayed much evidence that he really stands by his opinions to me so far either, super shallow vibes to it all, lack of conviction... I dunno.

Ralphdejones

SaoirseRose wrote: »

You have really, really missed the point.

You have no idea. None. If you did, you wouldn't be so flippant.

How dare you, how dare you tell a woman what she can and cannot deal with following a trauma you couldn't even begin to comprehend. How fcuking dare you. How dare you sentence her to a life sentence itself, when she's already dying inside.

I cut people like you out of my life a long time ago, and it's something I will never regret.

I was asked to read your post and comment on it, by a fairly decent poster, so I did in a non personal way as possible, so I'm dammed if I do and dammed if I don't.
"people like me"
Actually, I have a very, very good idea indeed, I'm not going into here, so there is no need to pretend anyone is getting personal with you, or that you have any idea about me whatsoever. If you won't allow people who are not in favour of abortion to discuss the matter or have any opinion, then I'm sorry you feel this way.

lazygal

Ralphdejones wrote: »

I was asked to read you post and comment on it, by a fairly decent poster, so I did, so I'm dammed if I do and dammed if I don't
"people like me"
Actually, I have a very, very good idea indeed, I'm not going into here, so there is no need to pretend anyone is getting personal with you, or that you have any idea about me whatsoever. If you won't allow people who are not in favour of abortion to discuss the matter or have any opinion, then I'm sorry you feel this way.

But you are in favour of abortion. You don't think the right to travel to abort an unborn child should be repealed.

jill_valentine

Ralph, just so you know, naked sexism to the extent you're indulging isn't actually reflecting badly on the people you're arguing with, it's reflecting on you alone.

The difference between that crackpot at the march the other day and your good self is that she is by no means representative and nobody's defending her angle. Yourself and your comrades on the other hand can't even be arsed to learn the basic mechanics you're spouting about before declaring yourself an authority, which is why we have to keep hearing mind bogglingly inaccurate statements about our own bodies from even the most elevated of the anti choice types.

You show your true colours damningly when you wade into a debate about what's best for a woman's body, pantomime offense on behalf of men everywhere that you don't feel you're being taken seriously, and then use "mangina" as a slur on the blokes here better informed than your good self on the subject. Next time you feel like female posters aren't taking you seriously, I want you to remember that this is why. Not because you're a man, but because you act like a sexist jerk to male and female alike. And I won't hold every man in the world responsible for you.

Godge

Ralphdejones wrote: »

I was asked to read your post and comment on it, by a fairly decent poster, so I did in a non personal way as possible, so I'm dammed if I do and dammed if I don't.
"people like me"
Actually, I have a very, very good idea indeed, I'm not going into here, so there is no need to pretend anyone is getting personal with you, or that you have any idea about me whatsoever. If you won't allow people who are not in favour of abortion to discuss the matter or have any opinion, then I'm sorry you feel this way.

But you are in favour of it, so long as it is not in Ireland.

jill_valentine wrote: »

Ralph, just so you know, naked sexism to the extent you're indulging isn't actually reflecting badly on the people you're arguing with, it's reflecting on you alone.

The difference between that crackpot at the march the other day and your good self is that she is by no means representative and nobody's defending her angle. Yourself and your comrades on the other hand can't even be arsed to learn the basic mechanics you're spouting about before declaring yourself an authority, which is why we have to keep hearing mind bogglingly inaccurate statements about our own bodies from even the most elevated of the anti choice types.

You show your true colours damningly when you wade into a debate about what's best for a woman's body, pantomime offense on behalf of men everywhere that you don't feel you're being taken seriously, and then use "mangina" as a slur on the blokes here better informed than your good self on the subject. Next time you feel like female posters aren't taking you seriously, I want you to remember that this is why. Not because you're a man, but because you act like a sexist jerk to male and female alike. And I won't hold every man in the world responsible for you.

Unfortunately, I think this will be wasted on him. I just hope his posts do not reflect his real-life persona.

The Purveyor of Truth

Sarky wrote: »

No, there's nothing sexist about what she said. Abortion is an issue primarily affecting women, men can lend all the support they want, and that's great and she loves anyone who will do so, just don't go around speaking over or for the women involved. Treat them as the equals they are, their experiences are valid, and crucial to the issue, and assuming otherwise helps nobody. That was her message. That's equality, jank. Sexism would be saying men had no part in the debate.

What that woman said was indeed sexist and the fact that she says she 'loves' men who show support for her side of the debate, does nothing to negate that fact. How condescending and extremely patronizing of her to think that her meaningless platitudes would give credence to her remarks. Her words show her to be abhorrently ignorant and reveal her overall misandric mindset, not just in regard to this particular issue but in general. To women like her the abortion debate is merely about point scoring in a gender war. That is why she wants those on the frontline of the battle against the patriarchy to be primarily female. As if there are men battling alongside her, then it would somewhat dilute her argument and make the accusation of patriarchal oppression a touch hollow.

Abortion is a human issue, not a gender issue. We tell men (and rightly so) that they must take responsibility if they get women pregnant and that they have a legal and moral obligation to provide for any child which they bring into this world, but yet the same society tells them also that until the moment of birth: 'the outcome of the pregnancy has nothing to do with them'. This can't be right. It's a moral contradiction at best. Sexist misandric tripe would be a more fitting call though.

The developing fetus is created by two people and just because it is the female body in which fetal development takes place, that does not make it solely a "woman's issue". It's absurd and disrespects the male gender in it's entirety when claims like this are made. Apart from the physical aspects of pregnancy (and assuming the health of the mother and child are not threatened) men and women are both effected in much the societal ways from planned pregnancies and unplanned ones. Sure, arguments can and will be made about how the ultimate pressure is on women to be there for the child and how the mother's life is changed in ways that the father's will never be, but these arguments are rarely ever sufficient, let alone ever qualify as sufficing justification for nonsense remarks like: 'It's a woman's body and that's all that needs to be said'.

I knew a chap who was delighted when his girlfriend got pregnant, he adored her, was madly in love etc etc. Attended ultra sounds and lay in bed with her night after night as they both talked to their unborn for many months throughout the pregnancy. Five months into it, she had an affair and decided to have the baby aborted. He became suicidal and although he did not take his life, he has never been the same since. To him it was like the death of a child. I have told this to many people and some have had the cheek to roll their eyes as if his feelings could not be genuine. Yet, if a woman miscarries at five or six months into a pregnancy, society wouldn't dare question her feelings. So why do we do this to men. Why do we so arrogantly attempt to make the abortion debate a women's only issue, as if somehow women got themselves pregnant?

I find it rather laughable that we keep hearing that women should not be treated as mere vessels from the very same people that seem to have no issue whatsoever with treating men as if they should have an ability to care about their children from the point of birth, but yet also accept that before this moment arrives, the growing fetuses have little or nothing to do with them.So much so, that their opinions labelled as irrelevant. How bizarre that we are at the same time told this is all caused by a patriarchy. The very notion of it is ludicrous, as I'm thinking if a true patriarchy were at work, men would hardly be so redundant.

Support the woman though her pregnancy but it's still none of your business. Care for the woman, empathize with the woman, but don't dare get attached to the unborn until we say you can. It's a woman's body. It's her choice. Nice of you to care. We love you. Thank you.. but it's still nothing to do with you.

Course, if a woman suffered a miscarriage and her boyfriend / husband acted like it was not his business, not for him to get emotional about, until the child had been born at least (as that is what society has told him) he would no doubt be called a heartless bastard. Seems men get a sent a million mixed messages about what they should and should not feel, were they to get a woman pregnant. There is an arrogance of shocking proportions on the part of these women I see speaking out on this issue. Which seems to be totally removed from any semblance of reality. It's a farcical suggestion that the abortion debate is one for women and not men. I feel someone would have to be extremely deluded to think that men have no business voicing their feelings on abortion when it is the potential life and death of their children which will ultimately be being decided upon. It seems because females have the womb in which the child develops, that they should be able to stick two fingers up and tell the entire male gender that the fate of the unborn has nothing to do with them as a result of this aspect of biology.

It's about time society put these women (and any men who happen to agree with their self centered and egoistical attitudes with regards to human reproduction) firmly in their place. It's also about time they realized that the health of growing fetuses is a HUMAN issue and that pretty soon when pregnant they may not be able to smoke or even drink alcohol beyond a certain level without being held accountable for it, let alone abort the unborn child whenever they so choose and so their cries of 'It's a woman's body and our choice what we do' will quite soon be shown to be the farcical empty mantra that it always was. By all means, do what you want with your body when the child is born. Have all the body autonomy you wish at that point, but when you are carrying a child, it's no longer just a question of YOUR body. Wake up to that point. There is a human life at stake and that is what concerns the men you so wish would just shut their mouths, but they won't, as what you do with your body when you are pregnant is very much the concern of a right thinking society, and hopefully.. always will be.

KCC

SaoirseRose wrote: »

You have really, really missed the point.

You have no idea. None. If you did, you wouldn't be so flippant.

How dare you, how dare you tell a woman what she can and cannot deal with following a trauma you couldn't even begin to comprehend. How fcuking dare you. How dare you sentence her to a life sentence itself, when she's already dying inside.

I cut people like you out of my life a long time ago, and it's something I will never regret.

That is an overreaction! The poster is entitled to his/her opinion! It's ok if it's different to yours. We can all respect each other. There's really no need to attack.

SaoirseRose

KCC wrote: »

That is an overreaction! The poster is entitled to his/her opinion! It's ok if it's different to yours. We can all respect each other. There's really no need to attack.

It's really not.

FouxDaFaFa

SaoirseRose wrote: »

It took a lot to write, but I needed to stand for this woman - I had to, because there were so many times when I stood alone. And it's not a nice place to be.

I won't copy it here because it's very long and not everyone will be interested in reading, but this is the post.

Thank you for writing that. I'm so sorry about what happened to you. You write beautifully and I hope writing is a help somehow.

SaoirseRose

FouxDaFaFa wrote: »

Thank you for writing that. I'm so sorry about what happened to you. You write beautifully and I hope writing is a help somehow.

Thank you, really.

I just wanted to try to make people understand, because I know from experience that having your own personal feelings and recovery process challenged can make things 100 times worse. No one here knows what was right for that woman other than that woman. No one can speak for her, other than her.

I thought very hard before posting in this thread, because any time I come to this site again I find myself struggling not to take things personally, and that's not a good thing. I don't need that. But after reading some of the posts, I needed to at least try.

I won't be posting in this thread again, and I apologise if any of my posts have seemed to attack anyone. That was never my intention. I feel strongly about this case, because if I had been forced to have something grow inside of me that was a part of one of the men who completely and utterly shattered me - I know I would no longer be here to write about it.

I have so much respect for this woman - simply for still being alive. And I have no respect for anyone who cannot acknowledge the sheer horrificness of this case.

KCC

FouxDaFaFa wrote: »

Thank you for writing that. I'm so sorry about what happened to you. You write beautifully and I hope writing is a help somehow.

I just read it now. It is indeed beautifully written - you have a talent. I am also very sorry for what happened to you. It explains the anger in your post above. I won't argue with you as I don't want to upset you any further. Look after yourself.

Mountainsandh

SaoirseRose wrote: »

Thank you, really.

I just wanted to try to make people understand, because I know from experience that having your own personal feelings and recovery process challenged can make things 100 times worse. No one here knows what was right for that woman other than that woman. No one can speak for her, other than her.

I thought very hard before posting in this thread, because any time I come to this site again I find myself struggling not to take things personally, and that's not a good thing. I don't need that. But after reading some of the posts, I needed to at least try.

I won't be posting in this thread again, and I apologise if any of my posts have seemed to attack anyone. That was never my intention. I feel strongly about this case, because if I had been forced to have something grow inside of me that was a part of one of the men who completely and utterly shattered me - I know I would no longer be here to write about it.

I have so much respect for this woman - simply for still being alive. And I have no respect for anyone who cannot acknowledge the sheer horrificness of this case.

SaoirseRose, I'm kind of sorry I asked Ralph to read you now, because his lack of empathy once again upset you. I thought it was well written and that maybe he'd get the message, but I suppose even for people who sympathize it's hard to grasp the real horror of your situation, so for someone who simply doesn't want to understand well...

I think Ralph simply does not want to empathize, it's easier to justify denying a woman her rights that way.

Ralph did you see my post about the very very primitive brain developmental stage before 20 weeks ?
The only brain activity before that is really a functional one, I think they call it lower brain activity ? It just tells the organs what to do, there is no thought, no feelings, no pain, no person.

Of course when we're pregnant with a child we desire, we all like to personify it from the very start, we imagine what he or she will look like, we jokingly call it our peanut or in French myself and my sisters' would call our little embryos our shrimps
But that's our maternal instincts, our imagination, our aspirations, because at that stage the little things are even less perceptive than a shrimp, that can actually process its environment and control its moves.

I think abortion before 12 weeks is OK. It's not something anyone would wish to have just like that, out of the blue, but if it is needed for the well being of the woman, then it should be available.

In this case the woman wanted it, and needed it so much that she was having suicidal thoughts.

I have been reading a few bits and pieces about how women start healing from rape online too, and of course it is mentioned that triggers should be avoided on the way to healing oneself. If an embryo from your attacker in your uterus isn't a trigger, then I don't know what is.

Piliger

The Purveyor of Truth wrote: »

What that woman said was indeed sexist and the fact that she says she 'loves' men who show support for her side of the debate, does nothing to negate that fact. How condescending and extremely patronizing of her to think that her meaningless platitudes would give credence to her remarks. Her words show her to be abhorrently ignorant and reveal her overall misandric mindset, not just in regard to this particular issue but in general.

A well written and interesting post, and I agree with most of it. However it rolls a lot of emotional issues together that need to be separated IN MY OPINION.

As a father Who was very much a new age type of father, and indeed a home father for the first five years of my son's life I have some basis for agreeing and disagreeing with one of your points.

You point about the involvement, emotionally and practically, by the father is absolutely correct. To many modern misandrous feminists are obsessed with their legal 'rights' to the exclusion of emotional, human relationship 'rights', and emotional 'rights.

But no matter how strongly we support the man's role in a pregnancy, and his interest in the pregnancy, we cannot undo the simple fact of nature that means that the women is the one with the entity inside her body. So ultimately only she has the legal right to make decisions about her own body.

That does not mean that she IS right to make decisions alone; to make an abortion decision in a relationship without the father being a part of that decision and giving his consent is completely odious and abhorrent in the normal course of things. To do so is an unacceptable human thing to do.

But .. the law cannot and should not step in and hand the father, however important he may be, legal rights over another person's body against their wishes. I'm sorry but that is simply not practical or acceptable either.

There are times in life when we have to accept that the law cannot always be used as a tool for what is right and wrong in human relations. And this is one of them.

Your points about the debate being a man's debate also, is self evident. Every citizen is entitled to take part and be heard in a debate where legislation on any other citizen or human being is concerned and everything you say about those feminists who say otherwise is 100% true.

It's about time society put these women (and any men who happen to agree with their self centered and egoistical attitudes with regards to human reproduction) firmly in their place.

It's about time MEN STAND UP and make this plain and clear to society, instead of mumbling to ourselves apologetically ! and I've said it here before and I say it again now ... WE MUST WRITE LETTERS AND MAKE OUR VOICES HEARD !