Worms as bait on the liffey

breadandjam

I used to fish the canals years ago (many years ago) and now my daughter (12) has expressed an interest.
I also remember coarse fishing with my my dad on the Liffey down by the strawberry beds. We only used worms as bait and always had great success with perch and eels but after doing a bit of reading I see you can't use worms as bait on some waters including the liffey. Whats the reason for that?

Bye-law 913 of 2013 prohibits the use of any fish hooks, other than single barbless hooks, and also prohibits the use of worms as bait in angling for all species of fish in the waters specified in the Bye-law and revokes Angling Bye-law No. 907, 2013

kildare lad

maybe they dont want any salmon gettin caught... also fish tend to swallow the bait if you dont strike early leavin you with a gut hooked fish and no body wants that!!

KAI.Fundraiser

kildare lad wrote: »

maybe they dont want any salmon gettin caught... also fish tend to swallow the bait if you dont strike early leavin you with a gut hooked fish and no body wants that!!

I cant see that being the case, a fish can be gut hooked on all bait so it was that they would ban bait fishing!

Bio Mech

kildare lad wrote: »

maybe they dont want any salmon gettin caught... also fish tend to swallow the bait if you dont strike early leavin you with a gut hooked fish and no body wants that!!

Its for that reason pretty much. Its a salmon conservation measure to prevent deep hooking of Salmon intended for release. One of many frustrating rules brought in to protect salmon on a mixed fishery.

Super-Rush

Bio Mech wrote: »

Its for that reason pretty much. Its a salmon conservation measure to prevent deep hooking of Salmon intended for release. One of many frustrating rules brought in to protect salmon on a mixed fishery.

I've caught Salmon by accident using maggots and corn on the hook.

KAI.Fundraiser

Thats why its a stupid useless law....

They wont stop salmon being deep hooked by banning the use of worm... What about those using prawns on a hook, or other baits on a hook...

Sounds to me like someone wanted to flex their muscles and created a stupid law.

Bio Mech

KAI.Fundraiser wrote: »

Thats why its a stupid useless law....

They wont stop salmon being deep hooked by banning the use of worm... What about those using prawns on a hook, or other baits on a hook...

Sounds to me like someone wanted to flex their muscles and created a stupid law.

Yes its an odd one. Prawn is fine as there was pressure from the Salmon anglers to allow it and its a Salmon only method really (I know you can get Perch on them before anyone says ). But its these commoners using worms that you need to stamp out. Ignoring of course that the liffey is a mixed fishery that has several other species you would want to use worm for. Perch, Bream, tench, trout, hybrids etc. Its grand to allow the Salmon lads to hook, play, net, unhook and release salmon on prawn but use a worm on a feeder for perch! God no.

I had a thread on it a while back and have sent several emails to IFI and the minister but have had no response.

KAI.Fundraiser

I could never get my head around why people put salmon above all other fish. Pike are being killed by the IFI to protect the salmon and trout, and they ban a natural bait to protect them lol...

When did fishing have a hierarchy?

Flysfisher

breadandjam wrote: »

I used to fish the canals years ago (many years ago) and now my daughter (12) has expressed an interest.
I also remember coarse fishing with my my dad on the Liffey down by the strawberry beds. We only used worms as bait and always had great success with perch and eels but after doing a bit of reading I see you can't use worms as bait on some waters including the liffey. Whats the reason for that?

The resaon is to try to create a conservation culture rather than what we have now.

Flysfisher

KAI.Fundraiser wrote: »

I could never get my head around why people put salmon above all other fish. Pike are being killed by the IFI to protect the salmon and trout, and they ban a natural bait to protect them lol...

When did fishing have a hierarchy?

Probably for the last 300 years or more i would guess.

KAI.Fundraiser

Flysfisher wrote: »

The resaon is to try to create a conservation culture rather than what we have now.

How does not using worms create a conservation culture?

Andypdublin24

I'm from tallaght and I love pike fishing all i do but the rivers u can't barely fish over salmon fishers it's not on that's y u can't use worms

KAI.Fundraiser

Heres the thing, theres talk about salmon conservation by banning the use of worms... Ok, il use prawn, no difference!

Then the salmon men are happy to see the pike being killed to stop them eating the salmon? But pike are more indigenous to Ireland than a salmon is, conservation me arse.. Its a puffed up view from snobs that think anyone one other than fly anglers are not anglers....

fisherking

When salmon became an endangered species..

KAI.Fundraiser wrote: »

I could never get my head around why people put salmon above all other fish. Pike are being killed by the IFI to protect the salmon and trout, and they ban a natural bait to protect them lol...

When did fishing have a hierarchy?

KAI.Fundraiser

fisherking wrote: »

When salmon became an endangered species..

All fish are becoming an endangered species, but yet you will see the beloved salmon angler posted all over the place holding their dead prize salmon...lol

Bio Mech

fisherking wrote: »

When salmon became an endangered species..

They are nowhere near endangered. They are IUCN "Least concern" classified.

Flysfisher

Bio Mech wrote: »

They are nowhere near endangered. They are IUCN "Least concern" classified.

God! dont mind any of that fact is Salmon numbers are falling year by year.

KAI.Fundraiser

Flysfisher wrote: »

God! dont mind any of that fact is Salmon numbers are falling year by year.

Flyfisher, EVERY single fish numbers is falling year on year. Some because of the salmon fishermen.

Bio Mech

Flysfisher wrote: »

God! dont mind any of that fact is Salmon numbers are falling year by year.

Yes but "endangered species" is a specific term and it doesn't apply to Salmon. Check the numbers running the liffey. As far as I know they have been coming up the last few years and have been moving towards the conservation target BTW. I am not doubting they are under pressure but many species are.

There may be local drops or regional drops but that doesn't constitute an endangered species per se.

Do you know what I would like to see myself and what would be best for salmon... no rod fishing for Salmon end of story. Leave them be, that's why I gave up Salmon fishing 15 years ago. I was down in Galway weir and landed a Salmon, it was netted and bashed on the head by the guys who run the fishery before I could even get over to it. That was the last cast I will ever make for Salmon.

KAI.Fundraiser

Bio Mech wrote: »

Yes but "endangered species" is a specific term and it doesn't apply to Salmon. Check the numbers running the liffey. As far as I know they have been coming up the last few years and have been moving towards the conservation target BTW. I am not doubting they are under pressure but many species are.

There may be local drops or regional drops but that doesn't constitute an endangered species per se.

Do you know what I would like to see myself and what would be best for salmon... no rod fishing for Salmon end of story. Leave them be, that's why I gave up Salmon fishing 15 years ago. I was down in Galway weir and landed a Salmon, it was netted and bashed on the head by the guys who run the fishery before I could even get over to it. That was the last cast I will ever make for Salmon.

I am the same with bass, Wont fish for them but theres always a chance I will catch one, we can thank the media and the restaurants for that... But people complain about the fishing being bad but yet they do nothing only complain and make stupid laws to make people think they are doing something good... Its a load of me arse,

Allot of salmon fisher men would have all aspects of angling banned except fly.. I have even been told by a salmon man that using a spinner or bait is not fishing? :O

My point is, until we get someone in government who enjoys fishing (all aspects ) then the salmon men will always rule the roost.

Flysfisher

Bio Mech wrote: »

Yes but "endangered species" is a specific term and it doesn't apply to Salmon. Check the numbers running the liffey. As far as I know they have been coming up the last few years and have been moving towards the conservation target BTW. I am not doubting they are under pressure but many species are.

There may be local drops or regional drops but that doesn't constitute an endangered species per se.

Do you know what I would like to see myself and what would be best for salmon... no rod fishing for Salmon end of story. Leave them be, that's why I gave up Salmon fishing 15 years ago. I was down in Galway weir and landed a Salmon, it was netted and bashed on the head by the guys who run the fishery before I could even get over to it. That was the last cast I will ever make for Salmon.

Salmon stocks are being decimated at sea. These great runs of salmon on the Liffey and some other rivers are a total myth. Look at the moy and other salmon rivers a disaster. But many keep the crap going to milk as much money as they can.

Bio Mech

Flysfisher wrote: »

Salmon stocks are being decimated at sea. These great runs of salmon on the Liffey and some other rivers are a total myth. Look at the moy and other salmon rivers a disaster. But many keep the crap going to milk as much money as they can.

They are not a myth they are verified counts from Island bridge and the Dam. Agree otherwise. I wouldn't call the runs great on the Liffey they are still well short of the runs from the 60s and 70s but they are better than the low point in the 90s.

Zzippy

KAI.Fundraiser wrote: »

Heres the thing, theres talk about salmon conservation by banning the use of worms... Ok, il use prawn, no difference!

Then the salmon men are happy to see the pike being killed to stop them eating the salmon? But pike are more indigenous to Ireland than a salmon is, conservation me arse.. Its a puffed up view from snobs that think anyone one other than fly anglers are not anglers....

They are both native fish. Neither is more indigenous than the other. Salmon recolonised Ireland after the last Ice Age, pike some time later, so if one was pedantic one might say salmon are "more" indigenous than pike. But that's not correct, a species is either indigenous or it's not.

KAI.Fundraiser wrote: »

I am the same with bass, Wont fish for them but theres always a chance I will catch one, we can thank the media and the restaurants for that... But people complain about the fishing being bad but yet they do nothing only complain and make stupid laws to make people think they are doing something good... Its a load of me arse,

Allot of salmon fisher men would have all aspects of angling banned except fly.. I have even been told by a salmon man that using a spinner or bait is not fishing? :O

My point is, until we get someone in government who enjoys fishing (all aspects ) then the salmon men will always rule the roost.

Maybe the reasons salmon get greater priority is that as a migratory species they are more vulnerable to over-exploitation than resident species, they have always been prized in Ireland as a food species, and the fact that salmon anglers actually pay for their fishing while pike anglers etc are seen as not contributing.

KAI.Fundraiser

Zzippy wrote: »

Maybe the reasons salmon get greater priority is that as a migratory species they are more vulnerable to over-exploitation than resident species, they have always been prized in Ireland as a food species, and the fact that salmon anglers actually pay for their fishing while pike anglers etc are seen as not contributing.

Not true atoll mate, Theres not many lakes or rivers left that you can fish in for free, and when the now rod license comes in we will all be contributing the same... But my point still stands that some salmon anglers will do anything to protect their style or fishing, even if it ment wiping out the population of pike in Ireland....


And btw how did you determine that salmon are more vulnerable than any other species?

Pike used to bring in big tourism until all the big ones have been wiped out, ether by the IFI gill nets or poachers....

Bass were nearly extinct in Ireland until the new laws were brought in to protect them, it worked to an extent but their numbers are far lower than salmon...

Cod, whats that? oh thats the fish they hoover out of the sea to make fish meal for the salmon farms.

Mackerel are none existent on the east coast this year.....

But guess what, no one cares because they dont create as much money as salmon.....

Zzippy

KAI.Fundraiser wrote: »

Not true atoll mate, Theres not many lakes or rivers left that you can fish in for free, and when the now rod license comes in we will all be contributing the same... But my point still stands that some salmon anglers will do anything to protect their style or fishing, even if it ment wiping out the population of pike in Ireland....

It's not coming in mate. You don't need to worry about paying. And if we're talking about pike/coarse fishing, where are these places that you have to pay?

KAI.Fundraiser wrote: »

And btw how did you determine that salmon are more vulnerable than any other species?

I didn't actually say more vulnerable than any other species, but I'll answer you anyway. In freshwater salmon are more vulnerable to pollution - they cannot tolerate high temps and low oxygen levels as well as coarse fish and pike. As a migratory species, salmon face several bottlenecks in their life cycle - when migrating to sea, smolts are extremely vulnerable to predation, infestation by sea lice from salmon farms, extremely variable sea survival, as returning adults they are vulnerable to high seas fishing by super-trawlers, illegal driftnet fishing off the coast, predation by sharks, whales, dolphins and seals, illegal netting on their way up rivers, and threats from drought (in winter particularly) affecting river levels at spawning time. Pike and other freshwater fish live year-round in a more stable environment, and face much fewer threats. Pike stocks are quite healthy in comparison to salmon, as are stocks of coarse fish and trout.

KAI.Fundraiser wrote: »

Pike used to bring in big tourism until all the big ones have been wiped out, ether by the IFI gill nets or poachers....

The gill nets only operate on a handful of lakes. There are hundreds of fisheries that have never seen an IFI gillnet.

KAI.Fundraiser wrote: »

Bass were nearly extinct in Ireland until the new laws were brought in to protect them, it worked to an extent but their numbers are far lower than salmon...

Have you any data on the numbers of bass? Cos that's a very sweeping statement without any data to back it up. It's also, in all probability, completely wrong.

KAI.Fundraiser wrote: »

Cod, whats that? oh thats the fish they hoover out of the sea to make fish meal for the salmon farms.

Mackerel are none existent on the east coast this year.....

But guess what, no one cares because they dont create as much money as salmon.....

Mackerel have been hammering sprat all along the west coast this week, they are late this year but still outnumber salmon by billions, not just millions.
And people do care - there has been a lot of concern expressed this year by sea anglers about the lack of some fish. But they create a lot more money than salmon - for commercial fishermen - and as a result it woudn't matter if all the anglers in Ireland marched for mackerel, the commercial lobby is too influential at government and EU level.

Bio Mech

KAI.Fundraiser wrote: »

Not true atoll mate, Theres not many lakes or rivers left that you can fish in for free, and when the now rod license comes in we will all be contributing the same... But my point still stands that some salmon anglers will do anything to protect their style or fishing, even if it ment wiping out the population of pike in Ireland....


And btw how did you determine that salmon are more vulnerable than any other species?

Pike used to bring in big tourism until all the big ones have been wiped out, ether by the IFI gill nets or poachers....

Bass were nearly extinct in Ireland until the new laws were brought in to protect them, it worked to an extent but their numbers are far lower than salmon...

Cod, whats that? oh thats the fish they hoover out of the sea to make fish meal for the salmon farms.

Mackerel are none existent on the east coast this year.....

But guess what, no one cares because they dont create as much money as salmon.....

I am just repeating most of what zippy has just posted but anyway...

Salmon are vulnerable because they migrate. Every Salmon that passes through a river has to pass a single point, so in theory if you lay a net at any point in a river every salmon has the potential to pass that net because their reproductive method essentially forces them to do so. Pike and perch are relatively resident so you cannot target them so much. Yes of course at the entrance to a spawning bay etc but there would be many spawning locations on most waters. Salmon all have to pass the same place and so naturally make themselves easy targets for netting.

I would suggest there are many times more bass than Salmon on the Irish coast each year.

I would agree with the comment on Mackerel. The winter storms have messed with the sprat run and the coastal eco system and its compounded by the Norwegian and Faroese fisheries but its not something IFI can do anything about. Its an EU fisheries issue in the main,

I still don't agree with the bye laws as they stand because as I have said many times I don't think they are effective and they penalise coarse anglers with no need or no strong justification IMO. For me its a question of ecology and catch and release salmon angling is a risk. I would prefer to see the moratorium on salmon angling extended but the game fishing lobby seems to have gotten their way and the coarse anglers seem to be suffering because of it. I also don't feel the salmon anglers have any further rights just because there is a paying licence.

Flysfisher

Bio Mech wrote: »

They are not a myth they are verified counts from Island bridge and the Dam. Agree otherwise. I wouldn't call the runs great on the Liffey they are still well short of the runs from the 60s and 70s but they are better than the low point in the 90s.

It's a non argument really to be honest the hard fact is that salmon runs this year are a disaster nationally.

KAI.Fundraiser

I am not disagreeing with anything anyone has said here, what I am disagreeing with is the fact that anyone thinks banning worms (a natural bait) is going to make a blind bit of difference.

I agree that fish stocks are on the decline. BUT its all fish not just salmon.

I agree with the use of barbless only, its the only thing we allow the youths in the club to use.

I agree with the use of break away only...

I agree that something needs to be done.

What I dont agree with is the way its being done or the fact that they concentrate on one species.

Zzippy wrote: »

Have you any data on the numbers of bass? Cos that's a very sweeping statement without any data to back it up. It's also, in all probability, completely wrong.

Zzippy I assume you dont fish for bass.....

Zzippy

KAI.Fundraiser wrote: »

Zzippy I assume you dont fish for bass.....

You assume wrong. Heading to Dingle again next month (second trip this year) to contribute to the tourism angling industry down there. I'm aware of the concerns this year about bass numbers, but that mirrors the concern about non-return of salmon this year. I still think bass are more numerous than salmon, but as I don't have data on that I'm not going to make any sweeping statements...