***The Official CAO Offers Thread*** [R1 points linked in first post]

rainbowtrout

Da Shins Kelly wrote: »

You'd be very surprised by the amount of people who do end up in the wrong course despite meeting requirements. A lot of people drop out after first year or fail exams and have to repeat. It becomes an exercise in wasting time and money. Too many people go to college because they think they should and aren't cut out for it or don't think carefully enough about what they really want to do. It is a flawed system in the sense that I don't think certain subjects are taught well enough (and bribing people with the prospect of extra points for doing higher level is a superficial treatment of the problem, and now they're talking about giving points for failing, ffs) and there needs to be other ways of assessing people's suitability for certain courses. Anyone studying English or Creative Writing or something of that kind should really have to submit a sample of work plus points and meeting subject requirements, for example. Just my two cents on that.

But definitely, having a certain amount of higher level subjects should be a given. You can't expect someone to do well in a biochemistry course if they failed chemistry or maths in the leaving cert. If you can't do it in school, you definitely wont be able for it at third level.

I agree. I've seen some of my own students come back to town after being away for less than a month saying they didn't like the course, and taking a year out.

I think there is a bit of a conveyor belt system operating here where there is a rush to get out of secondary, into third level, out of third level and into a job. Some people know exactly what they want and are ready for college but plenty are not.

Submitting coursework of some sort would be a good idea. If it could be given the anonymity that is provided in the state exams that would be even better, as students would know that being from a certain school etc, has not had a bearing on their mark.

Every now and again I come across a student in school who tells me they are going to do X course in college the following year, and in my head I'm thinking WHY???

There was a girl in school a couple of years ago who told the history teacher she was going to do Arts, get a history degree and become a history teacher. I was told this in the staffroom and I thought fair enough, but wondered about the student's ability to get the points for Arts in the first place. The history teacher told me that she missed at least 1-2 days a week, had never passed a history test in 2 years and if she took higher level would definitely fail yet, had no great interest or passion for the subject but reckoned she would teach it. I don't understand that mentality at all.

Ompala

Da Shins Kelly wrote: »

You'd be very surprised by the amount of people who do end up in the wrong course despite meeting requirements. A lot of people drop out after first year or fail exams and have to repeat. It becomes an exercise in wasting time and money. Too many people go to college because they think they should and aren't cut out for it or don't think carefully enough about what they really want to do. It is a flawed system in the sense that I don't think certain subjects are taught well enough (and bribing people with the prospect of extra points for doing higher level is a superficial treatment of the problem, and now they're talking about giving points for failing, ffs) and there needs to be other ways of assessing people's suitability for certain courses. Anyone studying English or Creative Writing or something of that kind should really have to submit a sample of work plus points and meeting subject requirements, for example. Just my two cents on that.

But definitely, having a certain amount of higher level subjects should be a given. You can't expect someone to do well in a biochemistry course if they failed chemistry or maths in the leaving cert. If you can't do it in school, you definitely wont be able for it at third level.

I would just like to point out, just because you couldn't do it in school (subjects clashing, not offered etc.) does not mean you will not be able to pick it up in college. Its highly unlikely someone would be able to do all subjects in secondary school that relate perfectly to their college course.

rainbowtrout

galwayed wrote: »

I know what you're saying is right. God she's young and healthy and as I know myself, the less straight the road, the more interesting journey! Off for a blub now tho'!

Get her to view the scripts for any Higher Level subjects where she got a D1 and see if there's anything worth appealing.

if she was to get an upgrade to a C3 she would be given a place in NUIG Arts.

On the other hand if she is young and really wants this course, maybe a repeat year wouldn't be a bad option, she would have a better grounding in the subject areas she wishes to study in college which would stand to her once she gets there.

MightyMandarin

Hotfail.com wrote: »

I dunno, I think bonus points for maths was a good idea. I was doing pass in TY, moved to honours in 5th year and ended up getting a B3 last week. Not a chance I'd have moved without the bonus points.

I suppose in your case, it would be a success. Maths and Science was never really my thing, I accepted that in TY, didn't pick a science and did OL maths because I knew putting so much effort into HL, would drag my other subjects down. I found the bonus points unfair, because it rewarded people who were good in a field where I was not. If bonus points were given in say, Eng, Irish and Maths, then it would be fairer imo. I also saw way too many people stick with HL, constantly failed, and yet stayed at HL because of the extra points and ended up failing in the LC and got 0 when a high OL grade would have gotten them 40-60 points.

Hotfail.com

MightyMandarin wrote: »

I suppose in your case, it would be a success. Maths and Science was never really my thing, I accepted that in TY, didn't pick a science and did OL maths because I knew putting so much effort into HL, would drag my other subjects down. I found the bonus points unfair, because it rewarded people who were good in a field where I was not. If bonus points were given in say, Eng, Irish and Maths, then it would be fairer imo. I also saw way too many people stick with HL, constantly failed, and yet stayed at HL because of the extra points and ended up failing in the LC and got 0 when a high OL grade would have gotten them 40-60 points.

Yeah, I know what you're saying.

The bonus points should really only be counted when going into a science or engineering course because maths is generally more important in them, I see no reason why they should be given for something like arts or music though..

If they keep on HL maths and fail then they only have themselves to blame, no one forced them to do it

Da Shins Kelly

Hotfail.com wrote: »

I dunno, I think bonus points for maths was a good idea. I was doing pass in TY, moved to honours in 5th year and ended up getting a B3 last week. Not a chance I'd have moved without the bonus points.

Well I'm kind of of the mindset that if you might pass at higher level, you should just do it because you probably will. Unless you're going to get an A1 in pass, it's not worth dropping down. Just make the extra effort to do the higher level, most people are capable of getting the C in higher level if they try hard enough (except those who are definitely going to fail obviously). A lot of the time people just drop down because they psych themselves out, not because they're not able.

grapefruit_1

LoveChanel wrote: »

If med is what you really want don't give up on it. It took me 4 years of repeating lc & hpat and i got in. If you want it bad enough keep at it

Did you repeat you LC 4 times or do something else in between ?

If you did that is some effort and congrats on getting in!

I'm heading into 3rd year (Not UCD) but I did my first degree there! You will hopefully love it after all that hard work.

Da Shins Kelly

Ompala wrote: »

I would just like to point out, just because you couldn't do it in school (subjects clashing, not offered etc.) does not mean you will not be able to pick it up in college. Its highly unlikely someone would be able to do all subjects in secondary school that relate perfectly to their college course.

Yeah, sure you can pick up something new in college. I did. I'm talking about people who did do subjects related to their course and still failed them. That should be an indication that you might be on the wrong track.

EoghanIRL

Anyone else doing dentistry ucc ? I would like to chat to some of my future class mates . Pm me if you are

MightyMandarin

Da Shins Kelly wrote: »

Well I'm kind of of the mindset that if you might pass at higher level, you should just do it because you probably will. Unless you're going to get an A1 in pass, it's not worth dropping down. Just make the extra effort to do the higher level, most people are capable of getting the C in higher level if they try hard enough (except those who are definitely going to fail obviously). A lot of the time people just drop down because they psych themselves out, not because they're not able.

I don't know, I knew a fair people who were on the borderline between passing and failing and sometimes it's too great a risk to gamble on passing, when you might just not perform on the day and end up getting 0. I felt the bonus points lulled people into unrealistic projections of results, simply because of the 25 points.

Also many people I saw, worked doubly hard on maths last year and as result, their grades in other subjects fell, which could've cancelled out the 25 extra points they got as a result of sticking with HL.

Regardless of what the SEC and Dept. of Education say about trying to make students more equipped in the fields of Science and Maths, the bonus points were introduced for the sole purpose of making Project Maths look like a success. That and the record pass rates this year has convinced many that it was successful, despite every Maths teacher I knew, begrudging its failures on a daily basis.

Konata

chinacup wrote: »

Didn't get what I wanted. Depressed.

Very sorry to hear that. I know that nothing will probably make you feel better right now but just know that this is not the end of the world. These days there are an endless number of routes to get to where you want to be - and the straightest path isn't always the most suitable. It's difficult to know exactly what you want out of life when you're 17/18 anyway and sometimes the 'scenic' route can actually be more helpful in the long run - along the way you might discover things about yourself you never knew and your path in life may change as a result.

It's very hard on a day like today to feel like you missed out or failed. But do hang in there and take it all for luck. I'm 24 now and so many times in the last year in particular I have thought to myself "I wish I knew what I know now when I was 18 and doing my CAO!". Getting what you want is not always a guaranteed happy end either! I got 8A1s in my Leaving Cert and still haven't completed a college course (almost there!). The newspapers etc. are always full of kids with great points and 1st choice offers (I was one of them!) but I always wish they did follow ups on the same kids - I think we'd all be surprised how many of them are on entirely different paths to where they started.

Anyway, I rambled on a bit there but it's something I feel very strongly about. There's too much pressure and expectations on 18 year olds to go straight to college when most probably haven't a notion what they really want to do (even if they think they know!). So don't despair just yet - really, life is only beginning now

Da Shins Kelly

MightyMandarin wrote: »

I don't know, I knew a fair people who were on the borderline between passing and failing and sometimes it's too great a risk to gamble on passing, when you might just not perform on the day and end up getting 0. I felt the bonus points lulled people into unrealistic projections of results, simply because of the 25 points.

Also many people I saw, worked doubly hard on maths last year and as result, their grades in other subjects fell, which could've cancelled out the 25 extra points they got as a result of sticking with HL.

Regardless of what the SEC and Dept. of Education say about trying to make students more equipped in the fields of Science and Maths, the bonus points were introduced for the sole purpose of making Project Maths look like a success. That and the record pass rates this year has convinced many that it was successful, despite every Maths teacher I knew, begrudging its failures on a daily basis.

Oh yeah, I think there's quite clearly a big effort being made to make the extra points seem like a good idea when it's not really. First of all, it's valuing certain fields and students over others and secondly it's not addressing the real problem of how the course is taught. It's also interesting to note that while many more took maths and passed, the failure rate was up on last year. My point was mainly about people who are able to do higher level and just convince themselves that they can't. If you've been failing maths all year, then you should probably do pass, but I know people who definitely should have done higher level but just got scared. The increase in passes at higher level might have something in part to do with the people who were capable deciding to do it instead of freaking out and dropping.

But I agree that there are a lot of problems with that extra points for maths idea.

Ompala

Da Shins Kelly wrote: »

Yeah, sure you can pick up something new in college. I did. I'm talking about people who did do subjects related to their course and still failed them. That should be an indication that you might be on the wrong track.

I know, I agree with your post, sadly there is no sign of the dropout trend stopping.

At the end of the day if you put in the effort you will succeed. I knew a few students studying physiotherapy who were worried sick about a physics module they had to do in 1st year, because they hadn't done it for LC. When they focused and put their mind to it, they got As and Bs.

If you are failing something and are thinking of it for 3rd level, you need to have a hard think about what you are doing. Although it is rare, some people just don't put in enough effort in LC and thats why their grade is so bad, in 3rd Level they do much better.

grapefruit_1

galwayed wrote: »

I know what you're saying is right. God she's young and healthy and as I know myself, the less straight the road, the more interesting journey! Off for a blub now tho'!

It's really not the end of the world.

I missed out on Medicine by 10 points a few (good few) years ago. I was pretty devastated at the time. So i ended up doing a different degree then traveled the world for nearly 4 years after that. Had the time of my life and now I'm back studying Medicine as a mature student.

I wouldn't change a thing of the last 10 years.

There is always a way for those that persist.

As you said yourself your daughter is young and healthy with plenty of options. She has already achieved loads by completing her LC, she could repeat one of her HL subjects to bring up the grade, she could do a PLC, she could do a different course, she could just take a year out to travel, volunteer, get some life experience!

The most important thing is that one's life does not depend on a memory test taken at 17/18.

Da Shins Kelly

Ompala wrote: »

I know, I agree with your post, sadly there is no sign of the dropout trend stopping.

At the end of the day if you put in the effort you will succeed. I knew a few students studying physiotherapy who were worried sick about a physics module they had to do in 1st year, because they hadn't done it for LC. When they focused and put their mind to it, they got As and Bs.

If you are failing something and are thinking of it for 3rd level, you need to have a hard think about what you are doing. Although it is rare, some people just don't put in enough effort in LC and thats why their grade is so bad, in 3rd Level they do much better.

Oh absolutely. I didn't have an aptitude for certain subjects in school. I really came into my own in college once I was studying something I really enjoyed. I think there is a problem with pressure to go to college and study something "useful". I used the chemistry example earlier because I know a girl who failed chemistry, did poorly in maths and is still intent on doing a science based subject in college. Having lived with scientists in college, I know that third level chemistry and maths are not easy subjects. If you struggled in secondary school, it doesn't get any easier as you go on if you simply don't have an aptitude for the subjects.

Then if course there's the whole problem of people going to college and studying 'whatever' just because everyone else is going to college and they feel like they have to go and study something and then just drop out.

RobertSullivan

Anyone else doing arts in Maynooth? Would love to meet some of my future class mates

Copper_pipe

if theres anyone going LM080 or LM118. Pm me

Ompala

Da Shins Kelly wrote: »

Oh absolutely. I didn't have an aptitude for certain subjects in school. I really came into my own in college once I was studying something I really enjoyed. I think there is a problem with pressure to go to college and study something "useful". I used the chemistry example earlier because I know a girl who failed chemistry, did poorly in maths and is still intent on doing a science based subject in college. Having lived with scientists in college, I know that third level chemistry and maths are not easy subjects. If you struggled in secondary school, it doesn't get any easier as you go on if you simply don't have an aptitude for the subjects.

Then if course there's the whole problem of people going to college and studying 'whatever' just because everyone else is going to college and they feel like they have to go and study something and then just drop out.

Again I agree, in 1st year for engineering we had 300, start of 2nd year we had 200, and sure to lose more this year coming. I do worry for people struggling through because of the mentality of "there will be a job at the end for me". With that attitude they can't be enjoying what they are doing and aren't doing their mental health any favours.

TooMuchStudy

Hey guys I'm 5 points off my course at the moment, is there a likelyhood of points dropping by 5 in second round offers? Or is it highly unlikely and should just accept what I have atm?

FlyingIrishMan

TooMuchStudy wrote: »

Hey guys I'm 5 points off my course at the moment, is there a likelyhood of points dropping by 5 in second round offers? Or is it highly unlikely and should just accept what I have atm?

Any chance you'd get those 5 points if you got something rechecked?

TooMuchStudy

FlyingIrishMan wrote: »

Any chance you'd get those 5 points if you got something rechecked?

Yes there's a possibility but the irish education system on rechecks is so stupid since they don't get back to you till mid october

J_E

Hotfail.com wrote: »

What's wrong with it? It's a fair system...

Not sure if I'd call the points system exactly fair - many courses at high points for the sake of elitism, it's abused in various ways, the likes of grind schools giving the impression that people with extra money are more likely to succeed, etc. I personally feel the Leaving Cert is too broad of a course, I lost out on points because of the likes of having to do Irish when it could have been spent on a specialist subject.

chinacup wrote:

Didn't get what I wanted. Depressed.

It is depressing when you see everyone rushing off to college but I don't think you should underestimate what a year off can do in terms of perspective. I was pushed into college like many others in my school when I wasn't really sure what I wanted to do, I didn't enjoy my course and dropped out of my first year. 2 years later and now I'm looking to going back and doing something I feel I'm going to enjoy much more, I've gained a huge degree of life experience and perspective that many of my college friends don't have in the same way, and it's going to stand to me later in life. So take time to grieve it (because it does feel devastating) but make sure you turn it into a productive year - you have a rare chance to do so many things with your free time, and it could lead to a whole new direction.

Hotfail.com

Cydoniac wrote: »

Not sure if I'd call the points system exactly fair - many courses at high points for the sake of elitism, it's abused in various ways, the likes of grind schools giving the impression that people with extra money are more likely to succeed, etc.

But the colleges don't choose the points needed, the points are high because the people who applied are academically gifted.. How is that unfair?

flump_master

Hotfail.com wrote: »

But the colleges don't choose the points needed, the points are high because the people who applied are academically gifted.. How is that unfair?

Because the colleges are ensuring the inflated points by having very small class sizes. It creates a sense of elitism which attracts many high achievers even though most of the courses largely follow the same scheme as common entry courses do. Take Nanoscience for example- mostly a general science degree with a few extra lectures (Not to diss Nanoscience, it looks pretty damn cool)

EoghanIRL

Hotfail.com wrote: »

But the colleges don't choose the points needed, the points are high because the people who applied are academically gifted.. How is that unfair?

+1

Also your grind schools argument is obsolete . I went to a normal school and worked hard everyday to get my course .
If you are capable of getting a course you will get it whether you go to a grind school or not . Maybe their notes are better but if you are good academically you are good academically .

Hotfail.com

flump_master wrote: »

Because the colleges are ensuring the inflated points by having very small class sizes. It creates a sense of elitism which attracts many high achievers even though most of the courses largely follow the same scheme as common entry courses do. Take Nanoscience for example- mostly a general science degree with a few extra lectures (Not to diss Nanoscience, it looks pretty damn cool)

But that's not the points systems fault, that's the college's decision..

I honestly can't see how it can be made much fairer.

rainbowtrout

Cydoniac wrote: »

Not sure if I'd call the points system exactly fair - many courses at high points for the sake of elitism, it's abused in various ways, the likes of grind schools giving the impression that people with extra money are more likely to succeed, etc. I personally feel the Leaving Cert is too broad of a course, I lost out on points because of the likes of having to do Irish when it could have been spent on a specialist subject.

There's more to it than that. The CAO can't be blamed for the way grind schools operate and advertise.

High points courses often don't have a lot of places, they are popular and there is a lot of competition for them so those with the highest points get the places.

I went to college in the first year of free third level education - 1996. It was a blessing, but for families that would have never got the grant and would have paid fees, that money filtered down the line and was put into second level education instead - more attending grind schools and more students getting individual grinds. It was unheard of to get grinds when I was in Leaving Cert, except for maybe maths.

Also coupled with that students can now access marking schemes, download them, scrutinize them, and learn off word perfect phrases that will get them the marks. We didn't know what a marking scheme was and they were never mentioned in my whole 5 years of school. You just went in, did the exam and got on with it. There wasn't any 'Well that's worth 10 marks, so you need to write 5 points and you will get 2 marks for each one'. Also you couldn't view your scripts if you wanted to appeal. We didn't know a lot about the system, I didn't know anyone that did it and it was a gamble sending it back because you didn't know if you just missed a grade or were way off. There's acres of information on the SEC website that students can avail of and use to their advantage.

All of these factors have also had an effect.

flump_master

Hotfail.com wrote: »

But that's not the points systems fault, that's the college's decision..

I honestly can't see how it can be made much fairer.

Yeah absolutely- But it does show how the system can be played to a degree to increase the points and thus the sense of "prestige" of a course . I reckon it's one of the fairer systems out there with regards a level playing field.

J_E

Hotfail.com wrote: »

But the colleges don't choose the points needed, the points are high because the people who applied are academically gifted.. How is that unfair?

Class sizes have been manipulated to artificially increase/decrease demand, it absolutely goes on in some college courses. Being academically gifted based on a compound sit-down exam (a lot still based on rote rather than coursework) shouldn't be the sole criteria for taking/being taken on for a course. Again, there are many expensive grind schools that give kids an edge over those who don't take them. Of course, anyone has the potential to do well or badly, but there is still a lot of unfair bias in the system.

Da Shins Kelly

EoghanIRL wrote: »

+1

Also your grind schools argument is obsolete . I went to a normal school and worked hard everyday to get my course .
If you are capable of getting a course you will get it whether you go to a grind school or not . Maybe their notes are better but if you are good academically you are good academically .

In fairness though, there are plenty of people who are very good at certain subjects and not at others. It doesn't mean they're not gifted. I wouldn't say the leaving cert, which is essentially a memory test, is a great test of how gifted a person is either.