AI Final 07/09/14. Tipp v Kilkenny

Rightwing

savannahkat wrote: »

Yep, a bit of common sense .:)

Time will tell on that one.

Mountainlad

savannahkat wrote: »

Number one, you do not know if Henry Shefflin will or will not start. Number two Brian Hogan is not injured this year nor is Henry at present according to Brian Cody. You can guess all you like why Brian Cody did not pick Brian Hogan earlier or why he has kept Henry on the bench for the last few games. You don't know, it is as simple as that and to infer you do is bordering on wishful thinking. You, no more than I know the full reason. What you do know is with the exception of Michael Rice, Kilkenny will pick from a full panel and a fully fit panel unlike 2010 when Kilkenny had to contend with injuries to Henry, Brian and John Tennyson. That is fact and to believe it did not impact on the game is a form of burying your head in the sand.

Henry Shefflin will not start, if he does it would be a mistake.

When Shefflin has played against since 2009 in the Championship he hasn't really had a telling impact bar 2011 when he was brilliant, but did mark John O'Keeffe for about 25 minutes. Sure, there was one handpass in 2012, and a goal from a dodgy penalty in 2009 but in fairness that's hardly as significant as it should be.

Hogan on 2009/2010 form, even 2011 form would be a big loss/big addition being available. But he's not in that form at the minute. Couple in those 2 with Eddie Brennan, whose performance had a telling impact on that game. That's a big loss in 3 years.


The thing is you would probably tell me they've been well replaced. But they haven't really been. They've had to revert to Hogan because Canning destroyed Tyrell. He was clearly worried about pace and obviously reckoned that Tyrell would be a better man in there against a team like Clare but doesn't look to be the case. I would be very concerned about Brian Hogan if I were you, but then you would rather just fawn over his medals.

Henry is beyond it. You seem to think that getting injured every few months is a sign that if he had a clear run at it he'd be as good as he was in his prime.

Those injuries aren't helping. The reality is that last year he was brought on against Waterford at half time, and was taken off again at full time having hardly seen it. He didn't score in 32 minutes against Cork before being taken off.

He was marked out of it in the league final this year. He has played how many minutes this year? And you think he will start in the all ireland final?


The thing is that much like Waterford, some of the big players from Kilkenny are getting on. We denied it for as long as we could, as at a point under Fitzgerald performances flat lined but ultimately Dan was never the same player after 2007, Ken after he got injured in 2008, Eoin Kelly around then too.

It's a testament to how good Kilkenny were then that they are still a good team now capable of winning the all-ireland, but you can't deny that there is some difference even from 2011 when Shefflin, Tommy Walsh, Eddie Brennan and Brian Hogan all had great games.

Rightwing

Mountainlad wrote: »

Henry Shefflin will not start, if he does it would be a mistake.

When Shefflin has played against since 2009 in the Championship he hasn't really had a telling impact bar 2011 when he was brilliant, but did mark John O'Keeffe for about 25 minutes. Sure, there was one handpass in 2012, and a goal from a dodgy penalty in 2009 but in fairness that's hardly as significant as it should be.

Hogan on 2009/2010 form, even 2011 form would be a big loss/big addition being available. But he's not in that form at the minute. Couple in those 2 with Eddie Brennan, whose performance had a telling impact on that game. That's a big loss in 3 years.


The thing is you would probably tell me they've been well replaced. But they haven't really been. They've had to revert to Hogan because Canning destroyed Tyrell. He was clearly worried about pace and obviously reckoned that Tyrell would be a better man in there against a team like Clare but doesn't look to be the case. I would be very concerned about Brian Hogan if I were you, but then you would rather just fawn over his medals.

Henry is beyond it. You seem to think that getting injured every few months is a sign that if he had a clear run at it he'd be as good as he was in his prime.

Those injuries aren't helping. The reality is that last year he was brought on against Waterford at half time, and was taken off again at full time having hardly seen it. He didn't score in 32 minutes against Cork before being taken off.

He was marked out of it in the league final this year. He has played how many minutes this year? And you think he will start in the all ireland final?


The thing is that much like Waterford, some of the big players from Kilkenny are getting on. We denied it for as long as we could, as at a point under Fitzgerald performances flat lined but ultimately Dan was never the same player after 2007, Ken after he got injured in 2008, Eoin Kelly around then too.

It's a testament to how good Kilkenny were then that they are still a good team now capable of winning the all-ireland, but you can't deny that there is some difference even from 2011 when Shefflin, Tommy Walsh, Eddie Brennan and Brian Hogan all had great games.

Have to concur. Shefflin won't be near the starting 15. Cody will be hoping he can bring him in with a few minutes to go, but even that would be hugely risky. KK have racked up huge scores, but I couldn't believe how limited they were up front v Limk, nearly fell off my seat with laughter when I shefflin trotting on.

savannahkat

Rightwing wrote: »

Have to concur. Shefflin won't be near the starting 15. Cody will be hoping he can bring him in with a few minutes to go, but even that would be hugely risky. KK have racked up huge scores, but I couldn't believe how limited they were up front v Limk, nearly fell off my seat with laughter when I shefflin trotting on.

I don't know what county you are from but you must have a terrible hump on your back carrying around that massive anti Kilkenny chip.

Skyrim

savannahkat wrote: »

Wonder what happened to Tipp against Limerick. Wipe the floor with them, did they. Different teams, different styles, different managers, different players, different days, different weather, different injuries, different attitudes, different histories, different luck even.
I love this if they play to their full potential. If they were playing a club team maybe, or an under 21 team maybe, but at this level the object is to prevent the opposition from playing to their full potential and Kilkenny are masters of that and far more so in recent times than Tipp. 2010 was a loss to Kilkenny due to Brian Hogan's injury and Henry Shefflins. This Tipp team have never beaten a full strength Kilkenny team since Cody took over. You might not like it, but it is a fact. That is not belittling Tipp rather it is stating a truth about Kilkenny and Brian Cody. Just as from 1970 to 76 the second best team in Ireland were Wexford who had the misfortune to come up against the second best Kilkenny team of all time and but for that Wexford would have taken two or three All Irelands in that period, same as Tipp would if Kilkenny had not stood in their way over the past 14 years.

Is 2011 a loss to Tipp due to Brendan Maher's injury?

savannahkat

2012 prior to another Tipp/ Kilkenny game,

The Munster champions have an impressive championship record over the ages against the Noresiders which shows Tipp
leading in their summer meetings by 13 wins to 8 in their 21 encounters to date but it’s the 4 point defeat in last
year’s All Ireland final that still haunts the blue and gold panel according to 2010 winning captain Eoin Kelly who believes if his fellow county men can play to their potential they will be a force to be reckoned with.


Read it all before Rightwing.

savannahkat

Skyrim wrote: »

Is 2011 a loss to Tipp due to Brendan Maher's injury?

No he was there in 2012 and 2013 and they still lost. He not being there in 2011 made no difference at all.

savannahkat

Tipp's potential is only a myth based on nothing more than wishful thinking and promoted by newspapers to sell a few extra copies and by the GAA to fill seats. if it was based on trophies won they might have a point but the Tipp trophy cabinet is as bare as old Mother Hubbard's cupboard.

Skyrim

savannahkat wrote: »

No he was there in 2012 and 2013 and they still lost. He not being there in 2011 made no difference at all.

I did not say anything about the following two years which is why I asked about 2011. Not having your current All Star and Young Hurler of the Year starting made no difference?

Charlie69

Mountainlad wrote: »

Henry Shefflin will not start, if he does it would be a mistake.

When Shefflin has played against since 2009 in the Championship he hasn't really had a telling impact bar 2011 when he was brilliant, but did mark John O'Keeffe for about 25 minutes. Sure, there was one handpass in 2012, and a goal from a dodgy penalty in 2009 but in fairness that's hardly as significant as it should be.

Hogan on 2009/2010 form, even 2011 form would be a big loss/big addition being available. But he's not in that form at the minute. Couple in those 2 with Eddie Brennan, whose performance had a telling impact on that game. That's a big loss in 3 years.


The thing is you would probably tell me they've been well replaced. But they haven't really been. They've had to revert to Hogan because Canning destroyed Tyrell. He was clearly worried about pace and obviously reckoned that Tyrell would be a better man in there against a team like Clare but doesn't look to be the case. I would be very concerned about Brian Hogan if I were you, but then you would rather just fawn over his medals.

Henry is beyond it. You seem to think that getting injured every few months is a sign that if he had a clear run at it he'd be as good as he was in his prime.

Those injuries aren't helping. The reality is that last year he was brought on against Waterford at half time, and was taken off again at full time having hardly seen it. He didn't score in 32 minutes against Cork before being taken off.

He was marked out of it in the league final this year. He has played how many minutes this year? And you think he will start in the all ireland final?


The thing is that much like Waterford, some of the big players from Kilkenny are getting on. We denied it for as long as we could, as at a point under Fitzgerald performances flat lined but ultimately Dan was never the same player after 2007, Ken after he got injured in 2008, Eoin Kelly around then too.

It's a testament to how good Kilkenny were then that they are still a good team now capable of winning the all-ireland, but you can't deny that there is some difference even from 2011 when Shefflin, Tommy Walsh, Eddie Brennan and Brian Hogan all had great games.

The same Shefflin that was Hurler of the year in 2012 ?

Rightwing

savannahkat wrote: »

I don't know what county you are from but you must have a terrible hump on your back carrying around that massive anti Kilkenny chip.

I'm neutral on this final, I think Tipp are better, player for player, but that doesn't mean I'm for them. Let the best team, and no excuses.

You know more about KK hurling than I do, but Cody must change the team around from the semi.

Grats

Rightwing wrote: »

I'm neutral on this final, I think Tipp are better, player for player, but that doesn't mean I'm for them. Let the best team, and no excuses.

You know more about KK hurling than I do, but Cody must change the team around from the semi.

Cody wouldn't know that! But I'll text him anyway!

Rightwing

Grats wrote: »

Cody wouldn't know that! But I'll text him anyway!

He is beginning to look spent. Will probably retire after this final.

Mountainlad

Charlie69 wrote: »

The same Shefflin that was Hurler of the year in 2012 ?

That'd be the same fella alright, yeah. What exactly did I say to suggest he wasn't hurler of the year in 2012? To be honest, he got that for the drawn final and 2 goals against Limerick probably wasn't his hardest one Player of the year. He wasn't even a guaranteed all star before the final like.

But my point is a bout 2013/2014 Shefflin. Currently 35 year old Shefflin. The Shefflin that won't start in the all ireland final.

savannahkat

Rightwing wrote: »

I'm neutral on this final, I think Tipp are better, player for player, but that doesn't mean I'm for them. Let the best team, and no excuses.

You know more about KK hurling than I do, but Cody must change the team around from the semi.

You are about as neutral as the Gestapo were in the WW2.

Rightwing

savannahkat wrote: »

You are about as neutral as the Gestapo were in the WW2.

Nonsense. If it was Waterford I'd be very much for them.

The 2 best teams in the country are in the final. I'm from neither county, both are successful and neither are in need of a title. Now, believe that or don't.

savannahkat

Rightwing wrote: »

Nonsense. If it was Waterford I'd be very much for them.

The 2 best teams in the country are in the final. I'm from neither county, both are successful and neither are in need of a title. Now, believe that or don't.

I will choose the latter tis safer round you.

Grats

Rightwing wrote: »

He is beginning to look spent. Will probably retire after this final.

Wishful thinking?

Do you think TJ will last as long down your way?

Rightwing

Grats wrote: »

Wishful thinking?

Do you think TJ will last as long down your way?

There will never again be a manager as good as Cody. But Davy Fitz may last longer than Cody though as an inter county manager.

I've my doubts about him.

Charlie69

Mountainlad wrote: »

That'd be the same fella alright, yeah. What exactly did I say to suggest he wasn't hurler of the year in 2012? To be honest, he got that for the drawn final and 2 goals against Limerick probably wasn't his hardest one Player of the year. He wasn't even a guaranteed all star before the final like.

But my point is a bout 2013/2014 Shefflin. Currently 35 year old Shefflin. The Shefflin that won't start in the all ireland final.

Didn't you say he hadn't made an impact in games after 2009 apart from 2011 v John O Keeffe ?
Maybe I read it wrong.

Mountainlad

Charlie69 wrote: »

Didn't you say he hadn't made an impact in games after 2009 apart from 2011 v John O Keeffe ?
Maybe I read it wrong.

Against Tipp, I said limited impact, while acknowledging the handpass in 2012. And I was including the 2009 all ireland final in that. Looking back, I may have missed typing Tipp, apologies if so.

Charlie69

Mountainlad wrote: »

Against Tipp, I said limited impact, while acknowledging the handpass in 2012. And I was including the 2009 all ireland final in that. Looking back, I may have missed typing Tipp, apologies if so.

No problem at all

Grats

Rightwing wrote: »

There will never again be a manager as good as Cody. But Davy Fitz may last longer than Cody though as an inter county manager.

I've my doubts about him.

Fair enough. I'd have my doubts about Davy though.

savannahkat

Mountainlad wrote: »

Against Tipp, I said limited impact, while acknowledging the handpass in 2012. And I was including the 2009 all ireland final in that. Looking back, I may have missed typing Tipp, apologies if so.

You really do plumb the depths when it comes to every and any opportunity. to denigrate any Kilkenny achievement collectively or individually and then try to dress it up as impartiality. Your anti Kilkenny rhetoric is well documented on many of the forums so please give us all a rest and just admit your bias. Not even the Tipp home grown supporters write as much drivel about Kilkenny as you do.

Rightwing

Grats wrote: »

Fair enough. I'd have my doubts about Davy though.

I would too, but I could see him go to Galway for a few years, Dublin etc, a sort of journeyman manager. He must have 6/7 years behind already ?

Mountainlad

savannahkat wrote: »

You really do plumb the depths when it comes to every and any opportunity. to denigrate any Kilkenny achievement collectively or individually and then try to dress it up as impartiality. Your anti Kilkenny rhetoric is well documented on many of the forums so please give us all a rest and just admit your bias. Not even the Tipp home grown supporters write as much drivel about Kilkenny as you do.

Where's the drivel? Explain exactly what you disagree with and give examples to back it up.

If it's Shefflin v Tipp, give examples of performances rather than medals. I'm plenty complimentary towards Kilkenny. Don't hide behind calling it out my 'bias', back up your statement.

Charlie69

savannahkat wrote: »

You really do plumb the depths when it comes to every and any opportunity. to denigrate any Kilkenny achievement collectively or individually and then try to dress it up as impartiality. Your anti Kilkenny rhetoric is well documented on many of the forums so please give us all a rest and just admit your bias. Not even the Tipp home grown supporters write as much drivel about Kilkenny as you do.

Don't agree with you on this one sav, always find mountainlad to be a fair and genuine poster and loyal Waterford supporter.

Wouldn't think KK would be his favourite team now or anything but never detected any anti KK bias tbf.

rebel girl 15

Keep it civil please lads and ladies

Rightwing

Charlie69 wrote: »

Don't agree with you on this one sav, always find mountainlad to be a fair and genuine poster and loyal Waterford supporter.

Wouldn't think KK would be his favourite team now or anything but never detected any anti KK bias tbf.

Indeed, I'd also call him a knowledgeable punter.

Grats

Rightwing wrote: »

I would too, but I could see him go to Galway for a few years, Dublin etc, a sort of journeyman manager. He must have 6/7 years behind already ?

Perhaps. Like any manager though he will be judged on success not how many years he lasted or how many teams he managed.

Perhaps he might even end up in Limerick!

savannahkat

Rightwing wrote: »

Indeed, I'd also call him a knowledgeable punter.

You would.

Rightwing

Grats wrote: »

Perhaps. Like any manager though he will be judged on success not how many years he lasted or how many teams he managed.

Perhaps he might even end up in Limerick!

He could do for sure. But is that not a sign of success too ?

Grats

Charlie69 wrote: »

Don't agree with you on this one sav, always find mountainlad to be a fair and genuine poster and loyal Waterford supporter.

Wouldn't think KK would be his favourite team now or anything but never detected any anti KK bias tbf.

Wouldn't entirely agree to be honest. Prefer not to get involved there.

Grats

Rightwing wrote: »

He could do for sure. But is that not a sign of success too ?

Personal success.

Rightwing

Grats wrote: »

Personal success.

Absolutely, but also you have to be good to last in the game.

Who are the 3 best managers in the game right now?

I'd go, Cody, O Shea, and probably Fitzy.

Grats

Rightwing wrote: »

Absolutely, but also you have to be good to last in the game.

Who are the 3 best managers in the game right now?

I'd go, Cody, O Shea, and probably Fitzy.

Absolutely no way would I include O'Shea. I'd put JBM ahead of him.

My three -

Cody, Daly and Fitz.

Mountainlad

Grats wrote: »

Absolutely no way would I include O'Shea. I'd put JBM ahead of him.

My three -

Cody, Daly and Fitz.

If Tipp won the all-ireland would you put him ahead of JBM?

Rightwing

Grats wrote: »

Absolutely no way would I include O'Shea. I'd put JBM ahead of him.

My three -

Cody, Daly and Fitz.

He was found out v Tipp. Sheedy was right up there, but since he left there hasn't been another top manager. Daly has done well, but we can't really judge him as a top notch manager yet.

Mountainlad

Rightwing wrote: »

He was found out v Tipp. Sheedy was right up there, but since he left there hasn't been another top manager. Daly has done well, but we can't really judge him as a top notch manager yet.

I think what Daly did with Clare was incredible, and has done a good job with Dublin.

Grats

Rightwing wrote: »

He was found out v Tipp. Sheedy was right up there, but since he left there hasn't been another top manager. Daly has done well, but we can't really judge him as a top notch manager yet.

Nobody really knows what happened Cork against Tipp but I wouldn't think it was all down to the respective managers. Sheedy and O'Shea were struggling big time in the lead up to the Final in 2010. It's no great wonder that Sheedy left and it leaves us to but guess how good he is.

Rightwing

Mountainlad wrote: »

I think what Daly did with Clare was incredible, and has done a good job with Dublin.

What exactly did he do with Clare did he get them to a final around 01 ?

dirkmeister

Rightwing wrote: »

What exactly did he do with Clare did he get them to a final around 01 ?

Cyril Lyons was in charge when they lost to Kk in 2002

Mountainlad

Rightwing wrote: »

What exactly did he do with Clare did he get them to a final around 01 ?

Two semis in 2004 and 2005. Gave Cork their toughest game the second year, and were unlucky not to win. Would have been the most impressive single win for any manager that I've ever seen had he won the all-ireland with that Clare team.

savannahkat

Mountainlad wrote: »

Where's the drivel? Explain exactly what you disagree with and give examples to back it up.

If it's Shefflin v Tipp, give examples of performances rather than medals. I'm plenty complimentary towards Kilkenny. Don't hide behind calling it out my 'bias', back up your statement.

Would you like to start with the video you uploaded on the Limerick forum showing John Dalton in the league final against Dublin. You uploaded it for a purpose and it was not to be fair to Kilkenny or even neutral..

Mountainlad

savannahkat wrote: »

Would you like to start with the video you uploaded on the Limerick forum showing John Dalton in the league final against Dublin. You uploaded it for a purpose and it was not to be fair to Kilkenny or even neutral..

The argument ye were making was ridiculous. Using red cards as a gauge of dirty play, while at the same time the main grievance every time you complain is about off the ball incidents that went unpunished. And kept talking about red card statistics without actually providing any.

But can I ask what exactly that has to do with anything I've said here? And you say 'would you like to start' but I've a feeling you'd be hard put to find many examples, especially seen as the one I was pointing out was merely to bring balance to an argument about off the ball incidents.


Here's what I said about Kilkenny after the Limerick game:

Good game today considering the horrendous conditions. People probably didn't realize but Kilkenny had to contend with a very strong wind in the first half, which would explain some of the poor wides. The wind had died by the restart once the rain subsided (before the heavens opened again and torrents came down).

First remark would be I was in awe of Kilkenny's use of the ball in possession. Their composure on the ball, vision and skill (all particularly well embodied in the form of one Richie Hogan) was an example to all teams. They were met with a Limerick side though who are teak tough, and played clever ball to the forwards first half when they had possession, and some extremely good shooting (which was far from bullet proof v Wexford) had them ahead for almost all the first half. Some great skill from Dowling for the point he scored off with one hand and a brilliant score from the sideline from David Breen two Limerick highlights.

At the other end Michael Fennelly holding off a few men hanging out of him and being able to break through and take a point, couple with Richie Hogan's excellent goal (and typical Kilkenny fashion, a sucker punch at just the right time) were great aspects of their first half play.

Second half and as the weather deteriorated, Limerick dominated and relled Kilkenny's 3 point lead back in. The turning point though I thought was Richie Power coming on for Kilkenny. Mark Kelly is an average hurler in my opinion and the Cats were wasting their time with him in full, TJ Reid didn't get much change in their either but when Power came in 3 high balls went in and we won all of them (not caught cleanly everytime but breaking them down for his men). Larkin got the goal and they were on their way.

I think Limerick maybe didn't show the composure neccesary either, I don't understand for example why David Breen was going for goal so early in the second half or why with 10 minutes left they were in the corner running at Kilkenny trying to work a goal chance while only two down. A point then and you're making a real game of it.

Nonetheless can't understand talk of the better team losing. Kilkenny were the better team today, no doubt about that.


I think the man of the match selections will look something like Paul Murphy, Seamus Hickey and Richie Hogan.

And on controversial incidents, JJ Delaney should have been sent off for pulling back Dowling's faceguard first half, and DOG should have been sent off second half. Not sure on the 21/penalty incident, felt it was a penalty but initial reaction was not that it should be a straight red, would like to see it again.

savannahkat

Yeah sure but you still hunted down the video of Dalton and uploaded it.

Mountainlad

savannahkat wrote: »

Yeah sure but you still hunted down the video of Dalton and uploaded it.

Yeah, sometimes people need visual reminders.

But hey, I don't really need to answer your questions if you won't answer mine.

Browney7

Mountainlad wrote: »

Yeah, sometimes people need visual reminders.

But hey, I don't really need to answer your questions if you won't answer mine.

Savanahh gets a bit touchy if people don't bow before KK and lick Cody's boots and praise their players to the hilt.

savannahkat

Visual reminders of what. You might explain that to all the other Kilkenny posters. What exactly were you trying to prove when you uploaded it, was it that Kilkenny were saints. I doubt it. Your opinion of Kilkeny very much depends on which forum you are posting.

savannahkat

And along comes Browney true to his name.