Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - Mod Note in OP, 25/08

tinofapples

€80 million oh my God .... another summer where we pay too much cause we move late. Real were desperate to move at least one of their midfielders, we should have had Khedeira included at that money.

Pro. F

redbaron_99 wrote: »

He was even worse!

Okay so if Cleverley was a nothing player who was just going through the motions and Fletcher was even worse, then how do you figure that they had so much more of the ball then the opposition? Like I know our central midfield didn't have enough penetration today, but if they were really nothing players, who cannot find space to receive the ball, and were just going through the motions then you would think that Premier League opposition wouldn't end up with so little possession against them.

I'm not saying that Cleverley and Fletcher played well. They had a poor game, particularly Fletcher, and that does need to improve. But the biggest problems today were the fact that Young and Valencia can't cross, Rooney and RVP as a pair lack pace and Rooney's hold up play was poor.

twam2008

tinofapples wrote: »

€80 million oh my God .... another summer where we pay too much cause we move late. Real were desperate to move at least one of their midfielders, we should have had Khedeira included at that money.

If we moved for Di Maria earlier though, there might have been more teams in for him.

Pro. F

M!Ck^ wrote: »

In fairness Pro your covering your point in rags. Cleverly was absolutely terrible today and not for the fist time.

I don't think anyone is debating Valencia and Young's were poor either and I have mentioned this in a previous post. But collectively between the four they all were terrible.

To state the Clevery was the best in CM is crazy. The amount of times he put Fletcher under pressure and gave the ball away was shocking.

And not to mention how many silly fouls he gave away once he lost the ball.

Lol at saying Cleverley put Fletcher under pressure and caused him to give the ball away so much. That is desperate.

And Cleverley gave away two frees. Yeah, that is shocking all right.

Pro. F

Your Airbag wrote: »

So your usual and baffaling defense of Clev after his latest **** show is to no longer say he played well but now your starting to point out MFs who were worse.

Yeah thats great for UTD. Clev should get that new contract, somebody was worse than him.

No, that is not my defence of Cleverley. I was working through it one step at a time with Redbaron to make sure we agreed on the first bits before going on to the next.

Larry Wildman

Vinz Mesrine wrote: »

And how will your opinion of him change if he signs Vidal?

It will increase.

redbaron_99

Pro. F wrote: »

Okay so if Cleverley was a nothing player who was just going through the motions and Fletcher was even worse, then how do you figure that they had so much more of the ball then the opposition? Like I know our central midfield didn't have enough penetration today, but if they were really nothing players, who cannot find space to receive the ball, and were just going through the motions then you would think that Premier League opposition wouldn't end up with so little possession against them.

I'm not saying that Cleverley and Fletcher played well. They had a poor game, particularly Fletcher, and that does need to improve. But the biggest problems today were the fact that Young and Valencia can't cross, Rooney and RVP as a pair lack pace and Rooney's hold up play was poor.

They were allowed to have the ball in certain areas. Sunderland knew they couldn't be hurt by our midfield and were content to let them have in their own half. But as soon they tried to do anything further up the field they were smothered.
And so what if we had possession? The possession we had today was pass from defence to midfield and back again. Over and over again. Sunderland sat fairly deep for most of it and were not troubled really.
This problem was then compounded by Valencia and Young who could not carry the ball at pace and get Sunderland turned towards their own goal. We could not stretch them. And the few times Valencia got into the position to take on the full back he either stopped and had a day dream or kicked it against the full back's leg.
Young... I'm not even going to analyse that pile of ****.

The above is nothing new. It started about three years ago and has gotten worse and worse. A lot of these players need to be shipped out. Not all of them are bad players, it's just the group has gotten into a rut and needs to be broken up, with a new team built. LVG will do this. It'll probably take a year, but he'll get there in the end.

Your Airbag

Pro. F wrote: »

Okay so if Cleverley was a nothing player who was just going through the motions and Fletcher was even worse, then how do you figure that they had so much more of the ball then the opposition? Like I know our central midfield didn't have enough penetration today, but if they were really nothing players, who cannot find space to receive the ball, and were just going through the motions then you would think that Premier League opposition wouldn't end up with so little possession against them.

I'm not saying that Cleverley and Fletcher played well. They had a poor game, particularly Fletcher, and that does need to improve. But the biggest problems today were the fact that Young and Valencia can't cross, Rooney and RVP as a pair lack pace and Rooney's hold up play was poor.

The thing is for Fletcher its rare for him to be as bad as he was today. For Cleverly what we saw today was his usual game. He seems only capable of that level of preformace throughout a season.

We are missing Carrick a lot. He doesn't have great penetration but is a very steadying influence in the middle.

redbaron_99

Your Airbag wrote: »

The thing is for Fletcher its rare for him to be as bad as he was today. For Cleverly what we saw today was his usual game. He seems only capable of that level of preformace throughout a season.

We are missing Carrick a lot. He doesn't have great penetration but is a very steadying influence in the middle.

It's not really. I watched all the pre-season games and he looked good. But the teams we faced weren't at it. The only time in pre-season that we were put to the test was in the first half against Liverpool. They pressed us high up the pitch and Fletcher was woeful. Kept having the ball taken off him and kept missing passes - an identical display as today's. The lad is past it. It's over. We need to move on from the bones of the 2008/2009 team.

Vinz Mesrine

Larry Wildman wrote: »

It will increase.

You criticised everything about the man, called him a spoofer. Us football fans really are a fickle bunch.

Headshot

Fletcher is a good squad player but he shouldnt be starting in most games. We had no choice today unfortunately.

bangkok

cleverly was shocking today, without doubt one of his worst utd performances and i hope he gets sold off before the week is over. sloppy passes, lazy tackles, stupid tackles, passes to no one, soft passes, passes behind players, 50/50 passes high in the air, terrible stuff.

Valencia was also terrible, so one footed its actually criminal, should be made train with his left foot for the whole of training tomorrow. to make him use it, too easy for a defender to mark.

ashley young again terrible, crooses into nobody, little link up play, slow to move the ball, booked for diving, not a united player

rooney was also not at the races today, no imagination, invention, 1 on 1 with wes brown and no trick to go past him, or even a shimmy he literally tried to kick it through him.

Pro. F

redbaron_99 wrote: »

They were allowed to have the ball in certain areas. Sunderland knew they couldn't be hurt by our midfield and were content to let them have in their own half. But as soon they tried to do anything further up the field they were smothered.
And so what if we had possession? The possession we had today was pass from defence to midfield and back again. Over and over again. Sunderland sat fairly deep for most of it and were not troubled really.
This problem was then compounded by Valencia and Young who could not carry the ball at pace and get Sunderland turned towards their own goal. We could not stretch them. And the few times Valencia got into the position to take on the full back he either stopped and had a day dream or kicked it against the full back's leg.
Young... I'm not even going to analyse that pile of ****.

I agree that a reasonable amount of our possession was made easier by Sunderland dropping off, but we also made them do that at times. And towards the end of the game, they were forced back so much that Rooney, Mata and Welbeck were getting to carry the ball into their box. If our CM was really as bad as you say then Sunderland would have been able to get a foot on the ball and take the game away from us. They weren't close to doing that.

SlickRic

di Maria will add great quality, but if he's coming as deep as Utd's forwards are having to come because the midfield is so inept, then there's only so much that can be done.

bangkok

bangkok wrote: »

rooney was also not at the races today, no imagination, invention, 1 on 1 with wes brown and no trick to go past him, or even a shimmy he literally tried to kick it through him.

Tbh I think the front players had absolutely no chance today considering how poor the midfield and wingbacks were. They never got an inch of space. I agree Rooney wasn't great by any means but I'd wait til he has some proper players behind him before really sticking the boot in.

Agree on Cleverly though, how does he play for Man Utd?

SlickRic wrote: »

di Maria will add great quality, but if he's coming as deep as Utd's forwards are having to come because the midfield is so inept, then there's only so much that can be done.

This is what I'm trying to say above.

magnumbud

poor performance again today going forward shows how much we actually need someone like di maria to create a spark going forward. valencia seemed to only get down the line once today to create the goal and then every single time he had it he passed it sideways and the quality of youngs delivery was very sub standard. last season we were one dimensional by looking for the cross too much and it seemed today we were trying to walk the ball in too much.

have to point out jones performance today thought he was fantastic and we probably would have lost without him. blackett too had another decent preformance for only he second competitive game. have to wonder whats going on with rafael too?

Montroseee

Headshot wrote: »

Fletcher is a good squad player but he shouldnt be starting in most games. We had no choice today unfortunately.

Fletcher is not a good squad player at all, he's finished at the top level. Ideally it should be Carrick and Fell that are the squad CM's with Ander and a new player starting. Carrick/ Fellaini in form is what you would call a good squad player, not Fletcher as he would't get into any other decent sides.

Will I Amnt

SlickRic wrote: »

di Maria will add great quality, but if he's coming as deep as Utd's forwards are having to come because the midfield is so inept, then there's only so much that can be done.

I think his pace and actual ability to beat a man will be a godsend. Fletcher and Cleverley are not going to be the regular central pairing.

Pro. F

Your Airbag wrote: »

The thing is for Fletcher its rare for him to be as bad as he was today. For Cleverly what we saw today was his usual game. He seems only capable of that level of preformace throughout a season.

We are missing Carrick a lot. He doesn't have great penetration but is a very steadying influence in the middle.

I was only responding to your post to put your misrepresentation of my argument straight. I have no intention of debating Cleverley with you. As we have both seen, we disagree on pretty much every single aspect of football, so any discussion between us would be pointless.

redbaron_99

Pro. F wrote: »

I agree that a reasonable amount of our possession was made easier by Sunderland dropping off, but we also made them do that at times. And towards the end of the game, they were forced back so much that Rooney, Mata and Welbeck were getting to carry the ball into their box. If our CM was really as bad as you say then Sunderland would have been able to get a foot on the ball and take the game away from us. They weren't close to doing that.

To be honest, Sunderland didn't play that well. We were there for the taking in the second half if they had really gone for it.

The fact is, they didn't push on. They fell further back which is just the mentality of a lot of lower teams. And still we couldn't carve out any decent chances.

TheCitizen

Real are takin the piss out of Man United with that Di Maria price tag. Putting it up to United if they are a "big" club or not. Man United needed to spend big last summer, would've got Fabregas or even nearly would've got Bale for the sort of money that Real are putting on Di Maria's head. It's a special price just for them. Man U should look elsewhere, but they're running out of options.

Hidalgo

If Van Gaal said he won't play Kagawa CM because Kagawa won't perform to LVGs wishes, you'd wonder what those wishes are as Cleverly got the start today?

In alot of the formations posted here including Di Maria he's in as part of the middle 3 in a 433. Would his pace, something Utd are ckearly missing not be better utilised as as part of the front 3. Himself and Rooney either side of RVP?

Mr.Prodston

There's surely at least one other player coming in, hopefully more. Say the club actually do sign another CB and CM on top of Di Maria does it matter that Di Maria was signed first? Because if we signed those other players first I don't think there'd be half the kerfuffle in here pricetag or not.

And yes the club obviously do need another CM or 2 and a CB I'm not suggesting in anyway that they don't. Fletcher and Cleverley is something I never want to see again, especially with Young to the left :eek:

I thought Mata actually played quite well in relation to the situation and when there's a bit of drive and pace around him he'll prosper even more

DM_7

The amount of ball Young and Valencia got and wasted would have to be the biggest disappointment on the day, without a doubt. As said Fletcher and Cleverley offered no creativity but they did function in getting the ball to the players that from an advanced position up the pitch should have created a lot more.

Thats not a defence of their play just an observation on the biggest problem with the players available, in the premier league good attackers can get teams bye without creative midfields. Val and Young were more attackers than defenders and should be doing a lot more with possession.

Another concern was Jones in possession, time and time again he had a chance to drive the team forward when no player pressed him, the three at the back won't work to its best in these games if the free centre half can't use the ball better. Potentially another reason to go 4-3-3, hopefully Evans and Rojo will remove some of those problems in the 3-5-2.

Still early days

redbaron_99

DeGea

Rafeal--Jones--Evans--Shaw

Herrera--NewCm--Di Maria

Mata

Rooney--RVP

---

DeGea

Jones--Evans--Rojo

Rafeal

---

Shaw
Herrera--NewCM

Mata

---

Di Maria
RVP

Things will be very different soon.

Blatter

TheCitizen wrote: »

Real are takin the piss out of Man United with that Di Maria price tag. Putting it up to United if they are a "big" club or not. Man United needed to spend big last summer, would've got Fabregas or even nearly would've got Bale for the sort of money that Real are putting on Di Maria's head. It's a special price just for them. Man U should look elsewhere, but they're running out of options.

It's not a special price just for United. PSG pulled out because he was too expensive and they have problems with FFP. I'm guessing they were quoted much the same figures.

Hococop

Blatter wrote: »

It's not a special price just for United. PSG pulled out because he was too expensive and they have problems with FFP. I'm guessing they were quoted much the same figures.

When you consider they paid £50 million for luiz I doubt di maria was too expensive for them just ffp held them back

Copper_pipe

Kagawa and 35million pounds for Vidal anyone?

redbaron_99

Copper_pipe wrote: »

Kagawa and 35million pounds for Vidal anyone?

How about: 35 million plus Young, Cleverely, Zaha, Anderson, Valencia, Chico and Fletcher.

It's a win-win situation for us. :pac:

adox

Copper_pipe wrote: »

Kagawa and 35million pounds for Vidal anyone?

Yes. Much as I'd hate to see him go and much as I like him, for whatever reason he isn't getting a look in at Utd and our needs for some class additions to midfield are so important they far outweigh any sentiment.


I doubt Vidal will be arriving anytime soon.

Your Airbag

Hidalgo wrote: »

If Van Gaal said he won't play Kagawa CM because Kagawa won't perform to LVGs wishes, you'd wonder what those wishes are as Cleverly got the start today?

In alot of the formations posted here including Di Maria he's in as part of the middle 3 in a 433. Would his pace, something Utd are ckearly missing not be better utilised as as part of the front 3. Himself and Rooney either side of RVP?

Maybe Kagawa hates playing it safe. Likes to try spin and turn a player and advance up field with the ball.

How the hell Clev is selected ahead of him is beyond me. Surely he can't do worse.

Lord TSC

redbaron_99 wrote: »

How about: 35 million plus Young, Cleverely, Zaha, Anderson, Valencia, Chico and Fletcher.

It's a win-win situation for us. :pac:

Which equates to about 36m overall.

TheCitizen

Blatter wrote: »

It's not a special price just for United. PSG pulled out because he was too expensive and they have problems with FFP. I'm guessing they were quoted much the same figures.

They're paying over the odds. Would've got Fabregas last summer for a lot less if they met the asking price. They have to spend big now and Real know that, that's why Di Maria is so expensive.

Vic Vinegar

For people wondering why we need ADM -

http://www.squawka.com/comparison-matrix#la_liga/2013/2014/%C3%A1ngel_di_mar%C3%ADa/136/69/1846/0/p|premier_league/2013/2014/ashley_young/126/64/81/0/p|premier_league/2013/2014/antonio_valencia/126/64/581/0/p|premier_league/2013/2014/nani/126/64/238/0/p#total_passes/assists/goals_scored/chances_created/tackles_won/key_passes#total

Pro. F

redbaron_99 wrote: »

To be honest, Sunderland didn't play that well. We were there for the taking in the second half if they had really gone for it.

The fact is, they didn't push on. They fell further back which is just the mentality of a lot of lower teams. And still we couldn't carve out any decent chances.

I know what you mean about the mentality holding teams back. But I don't agree that our performance was so bad that we only established control because Sunderland gave it up.

tinofapples

twam2008 wrote:

If we moved for Di Maria earlier though, there might have been more teams in for him.

So be it, better than getting fleeced. We move onto the next target and have time to get it done. LVG's participation in Brazil obviously didn't help but he should have had an idea who he might have been interested in bringing to OT.

Schwiiing

What would happen if Vidals knee flared up again after a huge money move? Right back to square 1 with cleverly and the rest of The Goonies. Would it not have been better to bring in 2-3 good midfielders instead of 1 top class midfielder?

Lord TSC

People keep bringing up Fabregas.

We offered more last year than Chelsea paid this year. It's always felt like Barca would have accepted the bids but Fab was happy to stay at Barca rather than play for us, and that situation only got worse over the next 12 months. The issue never seemed to be lowballing the offer....

Hank Scorpio

Schwiiing wrote: »

What would happen if Vidals knee flared up again after a huge money move? Right back to square 1 with cleverly and the rest of The Goonies. Would it not have been better to bring in 2-3 good midfielders instead of 1 top class midfielder?

We have Herrera too, I think hes going to be excellent for us

redbaron_99

Schwiiing wrote: »

What would happen if Vidals knee flared up again after a huge money move? Right back to square 1 with cleverly and the rest of The Goonies. Would it not have been better to bring in 2-3 good midfielders instead of 1 top class midfielder?

i think too many people are getting hung up on this Vidal's dodgy knee thing. He doesnt have a dodgy knee. He's had one operation, was back playing within five weeks. Probably a two or three weeks too early, which led to an extended break after the WC. He is now back playing first team football.

Also, Vidal has a brilliant record in terms of fitness and injury. He is not a crock by any stretch of the imagination.

Strootman would much more of a gamble.

redbaron_99

Pro. F wrote: »

I know what you mean about the mentality holding teams back. But I don't agree that our performance was so bad that we only established control because Sunderland gave it up.

That's fine. We all interpret football in our own way.

bangkok

redbaron_99 wrote: »

That's fine. We all interpret football in our own way.

but we all agree cleverly is awful?

Schwiiing

redbaron_99 wrote: »

i think too many people are getting hung up on this Vidal's dodgy knee thing. He doesnt have a dodgy knee. He's had one operation, was back playing within five weeks. Probably a two or three weeks too early, which led to an extended break after the WC. He is now back playing first team football.

Also, Vidal has a brilliant record in terms of fitness and injury. He is not a crock by any stretch of the imagination.

Strootman would much more of a gamble.

Doesnt mean he wont get injured ever again. Id rather Song Herrera and De Jong over Vidal on his own. At least then we would some sort of depth of quality in midfield.

redbaron_99

Schwiiing wrote: »

Doesnt mean he wont get injured ever again. Id rather Song Herrera and De Jong over Vidal on his own. At least then we would some sort of depth of quality in midfield.

Any player can injured. And we already have Herrera.. so we could have him and Vidal together.

twam2008

I'm happy anyway

http://youtu.be/9VYOicIulg0

J. Marston

bangkok wrote: »

but we all agree cleverly is awful?

He's worse than awful. Genuinely one of the worst centre midfielders in the league.

What does he offer? He can't defend. He can't attack. He can't shoot. Can't dictate the tempo of a game. All he offers is crab passing.

irishfeen

Any idea when Shaw, Herrera, Evans & Fellaini should be back?

Pro. F

Pro. F wrote: »

Lol at saying Cleverley put Fletcher under pressure and caused him to give the ball away so much. That is desperate.

And Cleverly gave away two frees. Yeah, that is shocking all right.

Of course he did, LOL to say that you think he didn't. Your a gas man.

Cleverly played so many bad passes to Fletcher. And I'm not excusing fletcher's performance because he also had a **** game.

But Cleverly caused undue pressure so many times by playing the ball square to Fletcher when he never should have. And then inadvertently giving away silly fouls because he panics when he has then lost possession.

Zico

At one stage today Tom Cleverley tried a cross field pass to Valencia and as soon as it left his boot I thought to myself "I bet this is going to fly over Valencia's head and out of play" and guess what? That's exactly what happened. He belongs on a Bodingtons ad not a Man Utd team sheet.

irishfeen

bangkok wrote: »

but we all agree cleverly is awful?

Just awful today - I was fcuking and blinding at the TV watching himself and Valencia ... just pathetic altogether - I feel sorry for the players around them trying to cope with that s.hite.