Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - Mod Note in OP, 25/08

ericzeking

Not great today.

An observation lads...Tyler Blackett looks the real deal to me, now I know a lot of lads who watch the u21 regularly say he isn't one who stood out but I had a look at the Liverpool u21 game the other night on bt and its a completely different style of game, very obviously an underage game, disjointed, frantic...maybe Blackett is just better suited to playing in the first team...here's hoping anyway.

I think 75m is too much for Di Maria.

Its extremely interesting that LVG name checked Vidal.

Whatsisname

Tyler Blackett really has been fantastic all pre season and continued it on during the season, well deserving of his place in the side. Reminds me of Rio so much, big, strong, quite quick and really comfortable and cool on the ball. Not afraid to take it out of defence and even strikes the ball the exact same way Rio does.

adox

eagle eye wrote: »

I'm surprised at the reaction to the Di Maria signing in here. I think you should be very excited by this signing.

You have signed one of the best players in the world, and then on top of that the club becomes more appealing to other players as they will believe that there is a great chance of Champion's league football with players like Di Maria there.

I really think there will be a few signings yet and the calibre might be better than was expected now that a marquee name has been signed.

It's post match depression by most I would guess. If you were here last night, we were over the ****ing moon.

He is a fantastic player but it is an astronomical amount of money and a CM is certainly our no 1 priority and it could be argued a CB takes priority over his signing too.

We have been waiting for a few years for the midfield to be addressed. Meanwhile we splurge £37 million on Mata, a player not really needed, £30 million odd on Van Persie, another player that could be argued wasn't needed.

I know £27 million was spent on Fellaini but that hasn't worked out so far and a similar amount for Herrera who, while he looks promising, we will have to wait and see and again isn't a top tier signing. Now we are going to spend what in the very recent past would have been a total transfer spend on Di Maria. £140 million spent in the last 12 months or so and midfield has at best been half addressed and a quality CB is still needed. There is no way I can see Utd spending big on either of those positions this window after splurging such a huge amount on Di Maria.

Today's game probably distorted the situation a bit, or at least made it a bigger issue than it is due to the amount of players missing and hence the down atmosphere in here tonight.

Until the midfield is addressed properly it will always be in the back of Utd fans mind.

MagicMarker

Whatsisname wrote: »

...and even strikes the ball the exact same way Rio does.

Yeah, with his foot.

fuzzydunlop85

Just watching spurs here on motd2, they have such pace and movement. The polar opposite of us. They're miles ahead of us.

twam2008

Whatsisname wrote: »

Tyler Blackett really has been fantastic all pre season and continued it on during the season, well deserving of his place in the side. Reminds me of Rio so much, big, strong, quite quick and really comfortable and cool on the ball. Not afraid to take it out of defence and even strikes the ball the exact same way Rio does.

As was Reece James, baffled he hasn't featured, biggest problem we've had first two games is wing backs and central midfield. Anything would be better than Valencia and Young. Makes me wonder if it's necessary to show how vital transfers are.

Rayne Wooney

Pochettino already working his magic at Spurs, worrying

Whatsisname

MagicMarker wrote: »

Yeah, with his foot.

hilarious, ya know what I mean.

The Big Easy

redbaron_99 wrote: »

Did big Pete score in that game or something. or was that Vladikavkaz. There's a few games from that era that have blended together in the back of my mind.

Pretty sure it was a scrappy goal he got against Rotor Volograd and we still got knocked out

killwill

Havent been on here in a long time.
I think Blackett is a super player defensively but not sure about him on the ball. Does he not try long ball options too much?
Maybe that is more a reflection of the players he has in front of him?

Al Capwned

Lifted from an FB group.

Robson99

Piess poor again to day. Valencia was not as bad as some are making out. A lot of the time not one player made a move to the front post or into space in front of him. Young, Fletcher and Cleverly were dire. Jones was very solid especially when in tthe center. Blackest looks promising but I worry that he is slow on the turn. Caught a few times for pace. Van pierse looked like he needed the game. Big problem with Rooney and Mata. Both were shocking fir the second week in a row. People are on about a system to accommodate all three. I don't think it will ever work. No pace to their game at all. We looked far better when Welbeck came on. At least he can turn defenders.

v3ttel

Today was always going to be a struggle with that 11. I'm amazed we got any sort of result.

Valencia -> Rafael
Young -> Shaw
Fletcher -> Carrick
Cleveley -> Anyone

Would improve our team immeasurably. That's ignoring Evans/Rojo.

Presuming Di Maria does actually happen, I think playing with two wide players (not wing backs) is our best option. With Mata, Rooney & Van Persie there's no pace or threat in behind and our current wing back options offer zero quality from wide areas. I think the signing of Di Maria signals that he will look to 4-3-3 more. Also, the fact that he probably sees that Januzaj is our best young player and he loves to see youth flourish.

I've no doubt that LVG see's the complete rubbish that was produced today by the likes of Cleverley & Young (among others) and knows what needs to happen.

fuzzydunlop85

killwill wrote: »

Havent been on here in a long time.
I think Blackett is a super player defensively but not sure about him on the ball. Does he not try long ball options too much?
Maybe that is more a reflection of the players he has in front of him?

Just seen that the goal came from him a corner caused by him doing this.

Whatsisname

https://twitter.com/UtdReport/status/503661078723969025

Yet he seems to be coming into criticism.

v3ttel

v3ttel wrote: »

Today was always going to be a struggle with that 11. I'm amazed we got any sort of result.

Valencia -> Rafael
Young -> Shaw
Fletcher -> Carrick
Cleveley -> Anyone

Would improve our team immeasurably. That's ignoring Evans/Rojo.

Presuming Di Maria does actually happen, I think playing with two wide players (not wing backs) is our best option. With Mata, Rooney & Van Persie there's no pace or threat in behind and our current wing back options offer zero quality from wide areas. I think the signing of Di Maria signals that he will look to 4-3-3 more. Also, the fact that he probably sees that Januzaj is our best young player and he loves to see youth flourish.

I've no doubt that LVG see's the complete rubbish that was produced today by the likes of Cleverley & Young (among others) and knows what needs to happen.

Forgot to mention, Smalling -> Evans & Blackett -> Rojo.

That's 6 players, before even talking about the teams shape and the impact of Di Maria (and potentially 2 other signings, if ESPN are to be believed).

DM_7

The Pontiac wrote: »

UTD need Di Maria. There's no player like him at the club now - his pace and skill will shatter defenses.

UTD also need a Vidal. A more Roy Keane, box-to-box combative type of midfielder.

I don't get the argument one type is more important than the other, or if you sign Vidal you don't need Di Maria. Two completely different types of players.

Instead of bolding parts of my post and replying about some fantasy ideal world scenario maybe read the whole lot and what I was relying to? I never but forward the argument you are suggesting.

First I never said one was more important than the other, I said if a Vidal in unavailable then the need for a Di Maria is even more important. There is a difference. I said on balance this summer that Vidal would allow a less established player like Di Maria to be bought.

Second it was a reply to a question pondering why pay big for Di Maria rather than a cm so that is why I made a reply outlining scenarios why Di Maria would be bought over an expensive cm.

Thirdly, obviously you would want both types of player, to get to Real Madrids level United need both types of player. It may not be possible to get both this summer if it involves a major transfer outlay on top of the 80 million or so already spent/comitted this summer.

For me when you are not in Europe the requirements to get both in one summer are not as great and you wouldn't need both players for the premier league. Getting those players has to be balanced with also getting defenders to replace Vidic/Rio and Evra.

Thats why in my post I outlined how this year an established cm like Vidal would allow United to go for a player with attributes like Di Maria but not as established and develop them to Di Marias level, stay within budget.

Can't get Vidal but can get Di Maria? get players to provide a platform for him to play his best, get help for Herrera who can be a key player for many years. That all assumes the cash or and players wanted were not available.

You don't have to agree with that, but at least represent what I said properly if replying.

Mitch Connor

Whatsisname wrote: »

https://twitter.com/UtdReport/status/503661078723969025

Yet he seems to be coming into criticism.

because people want more than goal scoring from him - we want him to be dictating the game in the final third, acting as the focal point for the ball getting moved around - getting into space and finding he creative passes to unlock defences. He isn't doing it.

I do think he is hampered by the poor pace of our play, but he has to up his game himself too.

Goal scoring is not the be all and end all. If Cleverley had scored today, that would not have made it a good performance.

goddevil

As excited as I am to see United splash the cash this window, I can't see Glazers authorizing moves like Di Maria's just to make a statement of intent. In all the time we've seen them in charge, they've always done things to make more money for themselves. The only way I see United spending 250$ million is if we've got another big sponsorship lined up.

I've got this feeling that the Glazers have sanctioned the spend with the stadium naming rights in mind. They get to justify the selling of naming rights by the massive investment in the squad. If we sign Di Maria and a decent CM and then turn around and sell the stadium naming rights, what would your reaction be? Would youse be ok with it considering we'll have a bigger transfer kitty especially with the FFP kicking in?

Lord TSC

Genuine question; do people think Vidal will be able to help puncture a team who have 10 men in the box?

That's not a defensive of what we have; when we have the ball, Fletcher, Cleverly, Young and Val give it away far too easily. But I feel we've become completely impotent in our attack as of late, and a huge part I feel is that most teams will pack their box and then let United just keep the ball outside the box. And when they do, we try crosses but they get knocked out, and we try shots but they get blocked by the waves of defenders.

So do people think the likes of a Vidal will be able to break through that sort of tactic we face nearly every game now?

v3ttel

DM-ICE wrote: »

Probably because they couldn't get the right midfielder in?

If you get Vidal for example, you probably don't need a Di Maria this summer. A less established alternative player like Douglas Costa or Munian would be good on balance.

If you end up chasing Blind and De Jong as a Vidal is not available then Di Maria becomes more important as that extra game changer is needed so is worth the price tag.

Just on Munian, he has a buy out clause of £36m apparently. As we've seen already, Bilbao will not let a player go for less than his release clause.

TheTownie

killwill wrote: »

Havent been on here in a long time.
I think Blackett is a super player defensively but not sure about him on the ball. Does he not try long ball options too much?
Maybe that is more a reflection of the players he has in front of him?

yes. Plays too many and they're pretty aimless too.

DM_7

v3ttel wrote: »

Just on Munian, he has a buy out clause of £36m apparently. As we've seen already, Bilbao will not let a player go for less than his release clause.

It was just an example really rather than a specific must buy, if Bilbao yet champions league they should look at a new contract for him.

Whatsisname

Mitch Connor wrote: »

because people want more than goal scoring from him - we want him to be dictating the game in the final third, acting as the focal point for the ball getting moved around - getting into space and finding he creative passes to unlock defences. He isn't doing it.

I do think he is hampered by the poor pace of our play, but he has to up his game himself too.

Goal scoring is not the be all and end all. If Cleverley had scored today, that would not have made it a good performance.

Oh I know that but I think he's being singled out a bit unfairly. Just like you said in the bolded part, I think thats the problem there. The amount of times he had to drop into our half today to just get the ball was phenomenal. I don't think we'll see the best of him until we have a functioning CM. Which hopefully, with a bit of luck, will come within the next week.

Mr Alan

Lord TSC wrote: »

Genuine question; do people think Vidal will be able to help puncture a team who have 10 men in the box?

That's not a defensive of what we have; when we have the ball, Fletcher, Cleverly, Young and Val give it away far too easily. But I feel we've become completely impotent in our attack as of late, and a huge part I feel is that most teams will pack their box and then let United just keep the ball outside the box. And when they do, we try crosses but they get knocked out, and we try shots but they get blocked by the waves of defenders.

So do people think the likes of a Vidal will be able to break through that sort of tactic we face nearly every game now?

This seems absolutely delusional to me.

Teams don't pack the box against Utd anymore. Why would they?! More often than not they just go toe to toe with Utd and come out on top because frankly they're better in a lot of areas around the pitch. Up top is actually the only area of the pitch where Utd have top class players.

Mitch Connor

Lord TSC wrote: »

Genuine question; do people think Vidal will be able to help puncture a team who have 10 men in the box?

That's not a defensive of what we have; when we have the ball, Fletcher, Cleverly, Young and Val give it away far too easily. But I feel we've become completely impotent in our attack as of late, and a huge part I feel is that most teams will pack their box and then let United just keep the ball outside the box. And when they do, we try crosses but they get knocked out, and we try shots but they get blocked by the waves of defenders.

So do people think the likes of a Vidal will be able to break through that sort of tactic we face nearly every game now?

Vidal, himself, won't.

Vidal, in a side with all/some of Mata, Rooney, RVP, Herrera, Di Maria, Rafael, Shaw can/will/should play quicker more incisive football that one with Fletcher, Cleverley, Young and Valencia.

The play is too slow, to fearful, too safe.

It is also that Vidal isn't needed for punching the hole as it were - I want him to help us stop the opposition getting at us so easily.

There isn't ONE problem with the United side we saw today - it isn't simply a lack of creativity. If we had Fabregas instead of Cleverley today the result probably still would have been the same. There is no one player who will solve our issues. But one player, Vidal for example, can help to provide a base for other players to work off with more freedom and confidence.

The Pontiac

DM-ICE wrote: »

Instead of bolding parts of my post and replying about some fantasy ideal world scenario maybe read the whole lot and what I was relying to? I never but forward the argument you are suggesting.

First I never said one was more important than the other, I said if a Vidal in unavailable then the need for a Di Maria is even more important. There is a difference. I said on balance this summer that Vidal would allow a less established player like Di Maria to be bought.

Second it was a reply to a question pondering why pay big for Di Maria rather than a cm so that is why I made a reply outlining scenarios why Di Maria would be bought over an expensive cm.

Thirdly, obviously you would want both types of player, to get to Real Madrids level United need both types of player. It may not be possible to get both this summer if it involves a major transfer outlay on top of the 80 million or so already spent/comitted this summer.

For me when you are not in Europe the requirements to get both in one summer are not as great and you wouldn't need both players for the premier league. Getting those players has to be balanced with also getting defenders to replace Vidic/Rio and Evra.

Thats why in my post I outlined how this year an established cm like Vidal would allow United to go for a player with attributes like Di Maria but not as established and develop them to Di Marias level, stay within budget.

Can't get Vidal but can get Di Maria? get players to provide a platform for him to play his best, get help for Herrera who can be a key player for many years. That all assumes the cash or and players wanted were not available.

You don't have to agree with that, but at least represent what I said properly if replying.

You're correct in what you say actually.

I got to the part that I made bold after reading that argument here so many times (a Di Maria is not needed) and replied. Should have read the rest more carefully.

I fully understand what you are saying. Both are needed but it depends on fund and/or availability and what positions to fill first.

Pro. F

The difference that Welbeck made when he came on today was massive. It was the exact same in pre-season, his pace changed the whole shape of the attack for the better.

Pyjamarama

Rooney while obviously talented is for me a huge problem right now. Under sir Alex's genius tactical innovation was not uniteds forte, it didn't need to be. His ability to get players to play to their max potential (some seemingly above) meant that a player like Rooney, who has an abundance of ability but is tactically ill disciplined and at this stage if his career lacks the pace to have much versatility, were fine. But post fergie United need are playing catch up talent wise. That means that they need to be tactically sounder.

Take the signing of di Maria and come up with a balanced team that would get the best out of the available talent. Rooney is poor as a lone striker as he comes too deep so you want him as part of two man strike force or as no.10 but mata is better as a ten imo and 2 up top will lead to ab imbalance elsewhere. For me his moments of greatness mask his overall contribution, similar to how Gerard has at time for Liverpool. Not surprising that both were "saviours" of English football and basically got to develop without much care for tactics and focuses more on their Roy of the roversesque qualities.

So will LVG drop the captain? And if he does how big a ****storm would it cause?

Pro. F

Mr Alan wrote: »

This seems absolutely delusional to me.

Teams don't pack the box against Utd anymore. Why would they?! More often than not they just go toe to toe with Utd and come out on top because frankly they're better in a lot of areas around the pitch. Up top is actually the only area of the pitch where Utd have top class players.

Did you watch the game today? Sunderland parked the bus.
Did you watch the game against Swansea? They parked the bus too.
A lot of teams parked the bus against United last season and breaking them down was definitely an issue.

TheTownie

Lord TSC wrote: »

Genuine question; do people think Vidal will be able to help puncture a team who have 10 men in the box?

That's not a defensive of what we have; when we have the ball, Fletcher, Cleverly, Young and Val give it away far too easily. But I feel we've become completely impotent in our attack as of late, and a huge part I feel is that most teams will pack their box and then let United just keep the ball outside the box. And when they do, we try crosses but they get knocked out, and we try shots but they get blocked by the waves of defenders.

So do people think the likes of a Vidal will be able to break through that sort of tactic we face nearly every game now?

All the top teams face that problem. Its the team's tactics and game plan that will dictate whether you overcome such opposition. The better the players you have, the better they execute the plan and the better instincts they have in a given situation. Vidal is in every facet, a significant upgrade on what Utd have so sign him up I say!

Blatter

Pro. F wrote: »

The difference that Welbeck made when he came on today was massive. It was the exact same in pre-season, his pace changed the whole shape of the attack for the better.

Agreed. If Welbeck had started I think we would have had a better chance of winning.

DM_7

Lord TSC wrote: »

Genuine question; do people think Vidal will be able to help puncture a team who have 10 men in the box?

That's not a defensive of what we have; when we have the ball, Fletcher, Cleverly, Young and Val give it away far too easily. But I feel we've become completely impotent in our attack as of late, and a huge part I feel is that most teams will pack their box and then let United just keep the ball outside the box. And when they do, we try crosses but they get knocked out, and we try shots but they get blocked by the waves of defenders.

So do people think the likes of a Vidal will be able to break through that sort of tactic we face nearly every game now?

Look at the pass Oscar gave to Ivanovic for Costas goal yesterday for Chelsea. Played into a tight space for a moving player and movement created new spaces.

In Uniteds scenario a steong midfield creates a platform for players to get ahead of the ball and for players like Mata to get on it with some more time to pick a pass to players running rather than standing.

Uniteds problems are (as others mentioned) things like fear stopping them getting into good positons, running or movement with purpose into spaces.

Christy Browne

One thing that really needs to be addressed is our injuries, we have 9 first team players out at the moment. I just can't put down to bad luck, it's ridiculous. There must be something that's causing it. If we had everyone fit for the first two games I honestly believe we'd have six points right now.

Whatsisname

marvsins

The Big Easy wrote: »

Pretty sure it was a scrappy goal he got against Rotor Volograd and we still got knocked out

Day i got my junior cert results!! An early evening ko, remember watching in horror before heading to town.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drJq3Y8fDI0

The_Kew_Tour

Pro. F wrote: »

The difference that Welbeck made when he came on today was massive. It was the exact same in pre-season, his pace changed the whole shape of the attack for the better.

Actually would agree with this.

DM_7

The Pontiac wrote: »

You're correct in what you say actually.

I got to the part that I made bold after reading that argument here so many times (a Di Maria is not needed) and replied. Should have read the rest more carefully.

I fully understand what you are saying. Both are needed but it depends on fund and/or availability and what positions to fill first.

Oops sorry, thread is moving so fast I didn't see you were in that type of discussion earlier. Sorry for such a long reply!

Lord TSC

Pro. F wrote: »

Did you watch the game today? Sunderland parked the bus.
Did you watch the game against Swansea? They parked the bus too.
A lot of teams parked the bus against United last season and breaking them down was definitely an issue.

Agreed.

For all people went on about Moyes "Cross, cross, cross" tactics, there was a reason he was trying it; because it was a way of trying to get it up and over the sea of defenders. Teams absolutely do park the bus against United, because for all people go our defence is **** and our attack is world class, a major, major problem right now is our ability to score goals. And yes, it comes down to our midfield, but even when the likes of Rooney, RVP et al get the ball to the box, they can't seem to break through and get it in. And then teams hit us on the break when we've pushed everyone up.

pablo128

Rooney to be reluctantly pushed back into centre midfield if we don't get Vidal. We have enough strikers to replace him. It would solve a lot of problems.

fuzzydunlop85

pablo128 wrote: »

Rooney to be reluctantly pushed back into centre midfield if we don't get Vidal. We have enough strikers to replace him. It would solve a lot of problems.

Good shout, playing terrible but can't be worse than clev/fletch.

kryogen

Mr Alan wrote: »

This seems absolutely delusional to me.

Teams don't pack the box against Utd anymore. Why would they?! More often than not they just go toe to toe with Utd and come out on top because frankly they're better in a lot of areas around the pitch. Up top is actually the only area of the pitch where Utd have top class players.

You must not watch the games so

Thats the tactic, blanket defence, let United knock it about in front of them, wait for the moment and counter attack.

May seem delusional to you, but that would hardly be surprising would it.

Do you watch all the United games? If you do then I find it hard to believe you hold that opinion, if you don't then you are hardly in a position to call anyone deluded since you don't have a notion what you are talking about

The tactic you see now is drop back, let us have the ball, watch as we do nothing.

adox

pablo128 wrote: »

Rooney to be reluctantly pushed back into centre midfield if we don't get Vidal. We have enough strikers to replace him. It would solve a lot of problems.

Vidal won't be coming. De Jong or someone like that, if anyone, will be signed IMO.

ericzeking

I thought when he was taking off Fletcher today that Kagawa wouldn't have been a bad shout for CM given the type of possession we were having. LVG mentioned him as an option there but he's not getting a look in regardless of how poor we are there... Probably on his way I'd say.

The Pontiac

Pyjamarama wrote: »

So will LVG drop the captain? And if he does how big a ****storm would it cause?

LVG won't give a shíte about big names or ****estorms. He's lived through plenty of 'em. If Rooney isn't performing, he'll drop him no question.

Moyes wouldn't have the bottle. Ferguson dropped/sold big names as it was second nature to him. LVG comes from the same school.

kryogen

Blatter wrote: »

Agreed. If Welbeck had started I think we would have had a better chance of winning.

I think this every game, him, or someone who has the pace to actually give the attack a different dimension.

Di Maria would help with that of course, his direct play and pace would give the attack far more potency

Rooney, RvP and Mata are all great players, but you need diversity

adox

ericzeking wrote: »

I thought when he was taking off Fletcher today that Kagawa wouldn't have been a bad shout for CM given the type of possession we were having. LVG mentioned him as an option there but he's not getting a look in regardless of how poor we are there... Probably on his way I'd say.

He was asked about him and he said he tried him in midfield but couldn't fulfil the role he wanted him to play.

Didn't sound good.

adox

kryogen wrote: »

I think this every game, him, or someone who has the pace to actually give the attack a different dimension.

Di Maria would help with that of course, his direct play and pace would give the attack far more potency

Rooney, RvP and Mata are all great players, but you need diversity

Welbeck shows for the ball down the channels as well as up top, has pace to burn and runs at defenders and tries to best his man. He moves the defenders around and pulls the oppositions team out of shape. His pace also can leave the oppositions midfield behind him, making the opposition less sound and set defensively. He basically forces the play and ups the tempo of the team playing his natural game.

Now he's far from perfect and not unique with these skills sets as a player, but it's something that Mata Rooney and Van Persie don't offer and something that the team are really lacking. It's all so ponderous, the opposition have an eternity to get back and get set defensively.

We should really try and sign a top quality player with those attributes. :pac:

Ed The Equalizer

goddevil wrote: »

As excited as I am to see United splash the cash this window, I can't see Glazers authorizing moves like Di Maria's just to make a statement of intent. In all the time we've seen them in charge, they've always done things to make more money for themselves. The only way I see United spending 250$ million is if we've got another big sponsorship lined up.

I've got this feeling that the Glazers have sanctioned the spend with the stadium naming rights in mind. They get to justify the selling of naming rights by the massive investment in the squad. If we sign Di Maria and a decent CM and then turn around and sell the stadium naming rights, what would your reaction be? Would youse be ok with it considering we'll have a bigger transfer kitty especially with the FFP kicking in?

Yes absolutely, they can go ahead and sell them if it means us getting back to the top.

Call Me Jimmy

Rooney's balls on the ball and range of passing is probably the best at the club, would be a decent shout for CM if he could get his head into it.