Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - Mod Note in OP, 25/08

Spazdarn

Pro. F wrote: »

This is not true. Valencia was picked ahead of Nani in that time and he most certainly wasn't doing the business. Nani wasn't picked for some reason other than what was being done on the pitch.

You really are just going through all the exact same steps of this debate as have been done before.

Now I think your next line is "Well at least Valencia was good defensively." He isn't. Despite all the hype, Valencia is no better defensively than the average winger and Nani is no worse.

I'm arguing with like 3 people at once, there's bound to be overlap! I did already bring up his tendency to be more defensive than Nani:D

Was careful not to state he was good at it, just said he was more prone to tracking back.

Billy86

ToiletFusion wrote: »

LOLZ

He was the best CM in the league in 12/13 and has never based his game on athleticism, so should still be very good for another two years or so. If you want to write him off because of last season (where he was arguably our most misused player) you might as well have written every single player off, barring DDG Rooney and perhaps Maya.

Spazdarn

Billy86 wrote: »

He was the best CM in the league in 12/13 and has never based his game on athleticism, so should still be very good for another two years or so. If you want to write him off because of last season (where he was arguably our most misused player) you might as well have written every single player off, barring DDG Rooney and perhaps Maya.

So Michael Carrick was better than say Yaya Toure or Mata?

He was n' his balls the best CM in the league!

I'm not writing him off solely on last season, I've never been a big fan.

brinty

DrPhilG wrote: »

Just to be clear, I have done bugger all work today due to the ongoing anticipation. :cool::o

+2 on this

MagicIRL i'll send ye some Scarlett and Anna gifs, you'll be sorted
you might give the match a miss

bangkok

ToiletFusion wrote: »

When he was signed he had an eye for the killer pass. He doesn't have that any more.

He is not good when pressured, passes it sideways and backwards.

His role as you mentioned isn't all that attacking but to screen the defence, but he can't be doing that good of a job if our defence are getting overrun.

had the most forward passes in Europe 2 seasons ago!!

Pro. F

ToiletFusion wrote: »

Valencia played right back at times the last two seasons. Is known for tracking back, albeit hardly to a great standard. Nani hasn't offered anything going forward or back, and that's why two coaches like LVG and Fergie didn't like him. LVG even went and changed out formation because our wingers weren't good enough! Surely if Nani was good enough he'd have given him a chance on one side of the wing.

Valencia played right-back a handful of times at most.

Valencia is nothing special defensively and Nani is not nothing bad. Nani offers twice as much as Valencia going forward. He beats players, crosses and can use both feet. Valencia can do none of those things.

Fergie and LVG are not infallible.

bangkok

ToiletFusion wrote: »

So Michael Carrick was better than say Yaya Toure or Mata?

He was n' his balls the best CM in the league!

I'm not writing him off solely on last season, I've never been a big fan.

mata is a no10.. do you watch much football or just read about it?

Vic Vinegar

Looks like Benatia is off to Bayern

DONE DEAL: #FCBayern and @OfficialASRoma have agreed the transfer of MEHDI BENATIA (27)! Defensive ace set to sign a 5-year contract.

Christy Browne

Benatia to Bayern confirmed, love to know what Jim White was going on about last week so

Spazdarn

bangkok wrote: »

mata is a no10.. do you watch much football or just read about it?

Obviously you're having trouble reading as well as watching. The debate was about Michael Carrick being the best midfielder two season ago. I disagreed.

Mata is an attacking midfielder, which last time I checked is a midfield position.

More importantly the poster is referring to Carrick few seasons ago, Mata was more of an attacking midfielder than a player who plays off the striker (which is the role he plays now) back then.

Not that hard to get your head around if you bother to slow down and take the time to actually read the posts, as opposed to blurting out insults.

ericzeking

Michael Carricks problem always has been, and always will be that he doesn't run around as much as Steven Gerrard.

Pro. F

ToiletFusion wrote: »

I'm arguing with like 3 people at once, there's bound to be overlap! I did already bring up his tendency to be more defensive than Nani:D

Was careful not to state he was good at it, just said he was more prone to tracking back.

Sorry, I didn't mean to be giving you shït. I was referring to how this debate has always gone in the past, not you having the same consversation with multiple people today. I didn't mean to be giving you shlt when you're having to respond to multiple people. That's always annoying to do.

This debate has been going on, following the exact same course as today, for years. Ultimately it comes down to how bad, or not, people think Nani is defensively. But it nearly always starts off ill tempered when the "one season in seven and people still rate him" argument is used.

Billy86

ToiletFusion wrote: »

So Michael Carrick was better than say Yaya Toure or Mata?

He was n' his balls the best CM in the league!

I'm not writing him off solely on last season, I've never been a big fan.

Mata is a #10 and not a CM, surely you know the difference right? And Yaya is more attacking similar to how Lampard was for Chelsea, but yes... Carrick was better in 12/13, which is why he was shortlisted for player of the year despite playing a far less glamorous role (note where the other 5 shortlisted played: Suarez, RVP, Bale, Mata, Hazard).

So yes, in 2012/13 Carrick was comfortably the best CM in the league.

I mean going by your obsession with goals, assists, and exciting, flashy, ultra attacking play, surely this guy is one of the worst midfielders in Premiership history, yes?

rockal

ericzeking wrote: »

Michael Carricks problem always has been, and always will be that he doesn't run around as much as Steven Gerrard.

He dosen't run around as much as me .... and I've two dodgy knees.

Spazdarn

Pro. F wrote: »

Sorry, I didn't mean to be giving you shït. I was referring to how this debate has always gone in the past, not you having the same consversation with multiple people today. I didn't mean to be giving you shlt when you're having to respond to multiple people. That's always annoying to do.

This debate has been going on, following the exact same course as today, for years. Ultimately it comes down to how bad, or not, people think Nani is defensively. But it nearly always starts off ill tempered when the "one season in seven and people still rate him" argument is used.

I never said I thought Nani was crap tracking back, I just think Fergie chose the less interesting option in Valencia because he was more prone to do so.

Nani's obviously more talented, but I don't pick the team, was just trying to justify Fergies' choice.

Spazdarn

Billy86 wrote: »

Mata is a #10 and not a CM, surely you know the difference right? And Yaya is more attacking similar to how Lampard was for Chelsea, but yes... Carrick was better in 12/13, which is why he was shortlisted for player of the year despite playing a far less glamorous role (note where the other 5 shortlisted played: Suarez, RVP, Bale, Mata, Hazard).

So yes, in 2012/13 Carrick was comfortably the best CM in the league.

I mean going by your obsession with goals, assists, and exciting, flashy, ultra attacking play, surely this guy is one of the worst midfielders in Premiership history, yes?

Like I said in the other post, Mata is definitely a #10 now... but during his two good seasons at Chelsea, I'd have considered him an attacking midfielder. Only around the end of his run with Chelsea when Oscar was replacing him would I have considered that role to be a #10.

Yes the attacking players are more glamorous and obviously their end product is more evident... but I'd still have preferred either of the two players I mentioned over Carrick back then (and now in Yaya's case)

Billy86

ToiletFusion wrote: »

Obviously you're having trouble reading as well as watching. The debate was about Michael Carrick being the best midfielder two season ago. I disagreed.

LOLZ!

My post that you replied to specifically stated CM.

And at Chelsea he was so advanced that you might as well be comparing Aaron Ramsey to Philip Lahm at FB.

Pro. F

bangkok wrote: »

had the most forward passes in Europe 2 seasons ago!!

That stat is also no use for judging a CM's creative contribution. If they are dropping deeper than they should in possession then they'll have more space to pick out forward passes.

Spazdarn

Billy86 wrote: »

LOLZ!

My post that you replied to specifically stated CM.

And at Chelsea he was so advanced that you might as well be comparing Aaron Ramsey to Philip Lahm at FB.

Apologies, was convinced it was midfielder not CM that you wrote... which is why I brought it up.

Billy86

ToiletFusion wrote: »

Like I said in the other post, Mata is definitely a #10 now... but during his two good seasons at Chelsea, I'd have considered him an attacking midfielder. Only around the end of his run with Chelsea when Oscar was replacing him would I have considered that role to be a #10.

Yes the attacking players are more glamorous and obviously their end product is more evident... but I'd still have preferred either of the two players I mentioned over Carrick back then (and now in Yaya's case)

He played quite centrally off a lone striker in a 4231. Yaya typically played highest up in a 433. Carrick played at the base of a 433, or as the deepest midfielder in a 4231. There is absolutely no comparison, especially with Mata/Carrick. Hence why nobody has ever talked about any overlap in their skillsets or what they offer tactically in any way, shape or form since Mata was signed by us. They are absolutely, incredibly different players.

redbaron_99

Carrick is a decent player, but was never a "great". That term is used to describe Scholes, Keane, Xavi, Iniesta, Toure, Viera, Kroos, Vidal, Pirlo, etc, etc. He's one of those players who's good enough when surrounded by top players.

As things stand, he would be first choice alongside Herrera, but that's not saying much when you consider the competition for midfield places at United. If we want to be back at the top, then we have to aim a lot higher than Carrick. He's 33 and out injured for the next couple of months.

He was part of a united team that is gone. Just like Giggs, Scholes, Evra, Vidic, VDS, Rio. It's time to move on.

v3ttel

Nuts102 wrote: »

Hoping to see tonight.

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Amos

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Keane----Evans

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Blackett

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Rafael

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Brown

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Pearson

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Anderson

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Powell

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Wilson

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Wellbeck

"So Ben, I would like you to mainly stand outside of your right post"

PaddyCar

How long is Herrera out for?

Your Airbag

DrPhilG wrote: »

And just to further clarify, that's not that much different from any other day, it's just a different reason.

I have days like this too, I call them weekdays.

Hococop

PaddyCar wrote: »

How long is Herrera out for?

He could be back for this Saturday hopefully

Spazdarn

Billy86 wrote: »

He played quite centrally off a lone striker in a 4231. Yaya typically played highest up in a 433. Carrick played at the base of a 433, or as the deepest midfielder in a 4231. There is absolutely no comparison, especially with Mata/Carrick. Hence why nobody has ever talked about any overlap in their skillsets or what they offer tactically in any way, shape or form since Mata was signed by us. They are absolutely, incredibly different players.

Like I said I was bringing you up over what I thought was best midfielder, in competition with Silva, Yaya et all. Carrick doesn't shape up in the that comparison.

irishfeen

Quick update for us working people?

Billy86

redbaron_99 wrote: »

He was part of a united team that is gone. Just like Giggs, Scholes, Evra, Vidic, VDS, Rio. It's time to move on.

I would rate him a bit more than you, but yeah he's not a great type, more very, very solid. Age and the injury are an issue as is the fact that LVG plays a more energetic system, but LVG is very flexible and one of the most tactically astute managers of the last 20 years so I would figure he will be able to use Carrick to his best, holding and screening the ball... and slowing play down (which is actually part of his role, that's why I get so confused when people criticise him for it). The good thing with Carrick is he has never been a player who relied on athleticism (barring being handy defensively on corners since he is tall and pretty strong though obviously no Vidic) so if Louis uses him right he could have another two years or so of being useful for us, at worst.

Still think we really need a CM not only for depth but to begin easing him out though, but with how poor Fletcher has become since his illness, since Cleverly has been apart from most of his first year, and as Fellaini... is, it baffles me to see people clamouring to boot Carrick out when it is obvious that despite needing big changes at the position, we also need some continuity as typically teams function around their CM spots.

shadowcomplex

Is there any defender in the EPL outside the Top 6 you wouldnt mind we sign?Whats about collochini?

stooge

Carrick will be useful to have when back fit, especially for games like Sunderland. He plays well against lesser teams and is handy to have in group stages of CL. However, he has consistently been found wanting against the better teams in the league and in the latter stages of the CL. His problem is his lack of physicality and mobility when Utd dont have the ball as often as they would against smaller teams.

Yer Aul One

shadowcomplex wrote: »

Is there any defender in the EPL outside the Top 6 you wouldnt mind we sign?Whats about collochini?

Vlaar, in a heartbeat. Also would have taken Lovren

Hank Scorpio

shadowcomplex wrote: »

Is there any defender in the EPL outside the Top 6 you wouldnt mind we sign?Whats about collochini?

Old and abit overrated imo. Its a dangerous game, Lovren looked really out of his depth against City last night. We should aim higher

Billy86

ToiletFusion wrote: »

Like I said I was bringing you up over what I thought was best midfielder, in competition with Silva, Yaya et all. Carrick doesn't shape up in the that comparison.

In 2012/13 he did, and was voted in as one of the best six players in the league despite playing one of the absolute most unglamorous roles in any system known to th entire sport (GK and defensive FB are probably the only two less glamorous positions out there).

Moyes wanted him (and whoever partnered him) to play an "action man" role, with a deep backline and attacking players high up the pitch, relying on those two to cover all of the 40 yards in between, hence why we suddenly became overrun pretty much as standard every single game, completely out of nowhere. You might as well ask Dani Alves to play CB in a defensive setup. I fully trust that LVG has a lot more sense in that regard.

shadowcomplex

I have a feeling rojo is going to be ****e as a CB and will end up as Shaws back up only, we def need a another defender

Smithwicks Man

Looks almost certain that De Jong won't be leaving Milan.

redbaron_99

Billy86 wrote: »

I would rate him a bit more than you, but yeah he's not a great type, more very, very solid. Age and the injury are an issue as is the fact that LVG plays a more energetic system, but LVG is very flexible and one of the most tactically astute managers of the last 20 years so I would figure he will be able to use Carrick to his best, holding and screening the ball... and slowing play down (which is actually part of his role, that's why I get so confused when people criticise him for it). The good thing with Carrick is he has never been a player who relied on athleticism (barring being handy defensively on corners since he is tall and pretty strong though obviously no Vidic) so if Louis uses him right he could have another two years or so of being useful for us, at worst.

Still think we really need a CM not only for depth but to begin easing him out though, but with how poor Fletcher has become since his illness, since Cleverly has been apart from most of his first year, and as Fellaini... is, it baffles me to see people clamouring to boot Carrick out when it is obvious that despite needing big changes at the position, we also need some continuity as typically teams function around their CM spots.

Fair enough, I respect your opinion. For me he's at the point at which he should be used as a squad player - I'm not someone who thinks he should be booted out, more used for back up for a new midfield.

It's been too long with players like Carrick, Cleverley, Fellaini and Fletcher who only have one gear, who don't support the front players with runs off the ball, or slipping intelligent passes between defenders.

These guys don't offer enough anymore. United need to be more cynical about the squad if we are to challenge any time soon.

Toobz

shadowcomplex wrote: »

Is there any defender in the EPL outside the Top 6 you wouldnt mind we sign?Whats about collochini?

Really like shawcross. Would make it into our back 3

beno619

stooge wrote: »

Carrick will be useful to have when back fit, especially for games like Sunderland. He plays well against lesser teams and is handy to have in group stages of CL. However, he has consistently been found wanting against the better teams in the league and in the latter stages of the CL. His problem is his lack of physicality and mobility when Utd dont have the ball as often as they would against smaller teams.

Wouldn't agree with this, he was fantastic in the 2nd leg vs Madrid, Arsenal and Pool games 2 years ago.

I think Herrera would compliment him very well big shame he got injured.

redbaron_99

shadowcomplex wrote: »

I have a feeling rojo is going to be ****e as a CB and will end up as Shaws back up only, we def need a another defender

Anything to back this up?

Jesus, give the lad a chance before writing his obituary.

redbaron_99

beno619 wrote: »

Wouldn't agree with this, he was fantastic in the 2nd leg vs Madrid, Arsenal and Pool games 2 years ago.

Professional footballers go into decline as they approach their mid-30s.

Maximus Alexander

https://twitter.com/ManUtd/status/504304023055659008

This tweet just popped up on United's twitter which I have been furiously refreshing for hours. Eyes went straight to the word "Join", peripherally noticed a promo photo. Got all excited. Tweet became full resolved in my vision. Flipped the keyboard, the monitor, the whole desk out a second floor plate glass window.

Trolls.

Billy86

shadowcomplex wrote: »

Is there any defender in the EPL outside the Top 6 you wouldnt mind we sign?Whats about collochini?

None I can really think of, but if Di Maria means we are changing to a formation with a four man backline, I am perfectly happy with Blackett as the fallback option behind Evans/Smalling/Jones/Rojo.

Jones has been an utter liability for most of his career at CB, but Louis is great at getting the best out of players and his potential is sky high... Smalling also has great potential but has had a poor two season (was quality has first year though, I think it was) so Louis could help there, but injuries are an issue... Evans is easily our best defender but again, has an injury history... Rojo will be interesting to see, his main issue however is discipline... Blackett though, I have been very impressed with in the admittedly short time. Would like some more depth if we are sticking with 3412, but he is grand as our third option off the bench/in reserve.

v3ttel

shadowcomplex wrote: »

Is there any defender in the EPL outside the Top 6 you wouldnt mind we sign?

Vlaar would be a decent signing if we are sticking with 3 CBs. He would be a good candidate to play as in the middle of the 3. Experienced, decent organiser, knows what LVG wants.

Robson99

Any update on Vidal or Blind lads????

Billy86

Toobz wrote: »

Really like shawcross. Would make it into our back 3

For me he's one of those players that will always look good at a certain level, in a certain setup... which isn't a bad thing, but I don't think he would cut it at all at the top level. A bit like Michael Dawson, who looked less and less convincing the better Spurs got over his time there (and who is now on his way to Hill, by the looks of it).

beno619

redbaron_99 wrote: »

Professional footballers go into decline as they approach their mid-30s.

Say hello Pirlo!

Seriously though, are we judging players based on last season ? Carrick could be on the decline but having not seen him under lvg I wouldn't make that call.

I hope we bring someone in but having Carrick partnering Herrera for the opening two games would have been nice.

NUTZZ

Robson99 wrote: »

Any update on Vidal or Blind lads????

On SSN they reported that Blinds agent said they had 'yet to receive a bid from United' for him.

redbaron_99

beno619 wrote: »

Say hello Pirlo!

Seriously though, are we judging players based on last season ? Carrick could be on the decline but having not seen him under lvg I wouldn't make that call.

I hope we bring someone in but having Carrick partnering Herrera for the opening two games would have been nice.

Carrick ain't no Pirlo.

I would judge players on their performances. Carrick was rubbish last year - a lot of that can be blamed on those around him, but at the same time, you expect the senior man in central midfield to step up and try to inspire those around him.

Listen, we can debate his worth forever. We have different views and that's cool with me.

brinty

Robson99 wrote: »

Any update on Vidal or Blind lads????

Nevermind those
Any fudging updtae on the "Angel"???

jameshayes

Is it normal to make an announcement just before a game? (albeit a relatively minor game)