Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - Mod Note in OP, 25/08

Pro. F

Al Capwned wrote: »

While I agree with you that there is a lot of blame that needs to be attached to the selection last night, I think the players (senior ones more so) should be criticised for their performance last night.

Another poster said earlier that it should be impossible to put out a United team that would get turned over so badly by a League One side, and that's bang on.

The players involved and the manager need to accept that they weren't anywhere near being up to scratch...

It's not bang on, because if you confuse and poorly organise any team (to say nothing of a group of players that aren't really a team) then they can lose to anybody.

If LVG can't get a regular first team playing in a well organised manner after a full pre-season, then there was no way that a thrown together collection of players were going to do play in a way that properly reflected their abilities.

kstand

magnumbud wrote: »

i'd say perrera too but hes another no 10 so whens he gonna get near the team

Jury out for me on him.
Regarding Janko - got down the right a good few times but delivery was appalling. Blocked every time in really good positions. Just looks average to me. Same for Reece James.

Spazdarn

kstand wrote: »

Jury out for me on him.
Regarding Janko - got down the right a good few times but delivery was appalling. Blocked every time in really good positions. Just looks average to me. Same for Reece James.

Yeah he'd get down the flank well and then just smash it at the first man

RayCun

kippy wrote: »

As for the wellbeck example. Hes cost United between 45 k and 75k a week since 2012 depending on what you read. Factor that cost into his figures and it aint exactly 15 million profit.

Yeah, but if you'd had to buy someone to play the games he played, you'd have to pay him that salary too. You can bring a player through the academy, or you can spend a few million on a journeyman from Europe somewhere. The journeyman is unlikely to get much better, the academy player has potential.

magnumbud

kstand wrote: »

Jury out for me on him.
Regarding Janko - got down the right a good few times but delivery was appalling. Blocked every time in really good positions. Just looks average to me. Same for Reece James.

didnt think james was that bad but hes never gonna get near the first team if we sign blind i'd say even with shaw and possibly rojo as backup he probably doesnt stand a chance. janko i'll reserve judgement for since it was his debut and he only played 45 min

Lofty123

Players who can't be arsed shouldn't be paid. That attitude is probably why they are being shown the door in the first place. They seem to have forgotten that they are privileged to be playing for one of the biggest clubs in the world.
Tactics and team selection aside, I still expect Utd players to be able to pass the ball, play at a reasonable tempo and compete, all of which were missing for large parts of last nights performance.

RobertKK

Trilla wrote: »

When does this ban kick in? must be near 10 transfers for them now

After this transfer window, they have to wait till January 2016.

magnumbud

RayCun wrote: »

Yeah, but if you'd had to buy someone to play the games he played, you'd have to pay him that salary too. You can bring a player through the academy, or you can spend a few million on a journeyman from Europe somewhere. The journeyman is unlikely to get much better, the academy player has potential.

could get loic remy for reportedly 8 million. about the same salary and can at least score

ericzeking

Anyone for a bit of #Moyesin lads? He'd have us organised anyway and with our new attacking signings and no Evra and Rio generally upsetting things....you'd never know!!! And we'd have Toni Kroos-apparently.

Before anyone goes nuts..... You have to have a bit of a laugh in times such as these...

Lord TSC

ericzeking wrote: »

Before anyone goes nuts..... You have to have a bit of a laugh in times such as these...

Pro. F

Lord TSC wrote: »

I understand your point, and I won't deny that LVG gave off an aire of not being all that bothered by the match tonight (in terms of not valuing the cup and choosing accordingly).

At the same time....what team should he have picked? A massive chunk of his first team is out injured, his second string had played a game 48 hours before. He was pretty much left having to choose a third string with a few "senior" players involved (Hernandez, Welbeck, Anderson and Evans are all senior, even if not first team). Throw in Januzaj (who probably wouldn't have played much if not for the injury) and De Gea (who I was actually surprised was playing), and he didn't have much choice left.

Either he threw out the kids and said "Prove yourselves", or he threw out the second string who were all probably still recovering from Sunday, and risked yet more injuries to players he can't afford to lose.

Again, I agree he made the call, and obviously decided not to risk big players, but there were reasons that probably made his team selection a little bit straightforward in terms of who was viably available. Meanwhile, a lot of the fringe players should have been seeing it as a chance to prove themselves and should have been able to at least score against a League One side, let alone win.

Fellaini could have played instead of Anderson, but other than that, the quick turn around and injury concern is a valid point.

But then he should have put them a formation that they were more familiar with and given them a more straight forward plan to follow.

kippy

RayCun wrote: »

Yeah, but if you'd had to buy someone to play the games he played, you'd have to pay him that salary too. You can bring a player through the academy, or you can spend a few million on a journeyman from Europe somewhere. The journeyman is unlikely to get much better, the academy player has potential.

My point is the 15 mill aint pure profit for the academy. The club have spent significant money on Welbeck at this point.

DrPhilG

The only glint of positivity to come from that shambles last night is that LVG picked a lot of players who were on their last chance and needed to prove that they have a place.

They failed spectacularly.

As much as we need a CM and CB to come in, we are badly in need of a major clearout of the deadwood. Anderson, Cleverley, Young, Valencia, Hernandez should all go.

I agree with others that Anderson in particular should be cut if needs be. He's in the last year of his deal, just pay him off and boot him out. He epitomises the lazy useless couldn't-be-arsed attitude of some of the squad.

RayCun

magnumbud wrote: »

could get loic remy for reportedly 8 million. about the same salary and can at least score

I don't think we need to buy anyone, even if Welbeck goes.

Someone was asking what the point of an academy is. The point is that, when you decide you need a fourth striker, or fifth CB, or third choice cover at RB, you don't always need to go shopping around Europe or the lower leagues looking for someone who will cost around 5 million and probably only play in domestic cup games. You give someone from the academy a chance. It saves you a bit of money on transfers, and a 19 year old who has looked good in youth teams might make the step up to playing well in the senior team, while a 23 year old who has done okay in France is probably going to stay at 'okay'.

Lord TSC

Pro. F wrote: »

Fellaini could have played instead of Anderson

Is Fellaini not out with the ankle injury? Or is he back?

Pro. F

Baldy Conscience wrote: »

Perhaps the players that LVG have said can leave just weren't arsed last night - why would Welbeck, for example, make anything more than a token effort, risk injury which would mess up any potential move, which would then see him playing reserve football until Xmas.

Same for Chico, Anderson.

Other than Anderson, they looked like they were trying to me.

Baldy Conscience wrote: »

Evans though, he was absolutely abysmal, partly, but not fully, due to "the system". "The system" didn't make him give a 5 yard pass to an opposition player in the box, bad concentration did, and that's unforgivable really.

LVG has said that he's getting the players to think completely differently about how they pick their passes.

Pro. F

Lord TSC wrote: »

Is Fellaini not out with the ankle injury? Or is he back?

Yeah, I had forgotten. Scratch that bit.

magnumbud

RayCun wrote: »

I don't think we need to buy anyone, even if Welbeck goes.

Someone was asking what the point of an academy is. The point is that, when you decide you need a fourth striker, or fifth CB, or third choice cover at RB, you don't always need to go shopping around Europe or the lower leagues looking for someone who will cost around 5 million and probably only play in domestic cup games. You give someone from the academy a chance. It saves you a bit of money on transfers, and a 19 year old who has looked good in youth teams might make the step up to playing well in the senior team, while a 23 year old who has done okay in France is probably going to stay at 'okay'.

im working off the theory hernandez and welbeck both go. hernandez played last night like he was done at the club in his head.

also 20 goals from 41 premier league games between qpr and newcastle is more than okay

i'd have remy as first backup and wilson as next

NTMK

Lord TSC wrote: »

Is Fellaini not out with the ankle injury? Or is he back?

out still

NTMK

heres our injury list atm

Johnstone GK Knock
Shaw DEF Hamstring Injury
Smalling DEF Groin Injury
Kagawa MID Concussion
Herrera MID Ankle/Foot Injury
Fellaini MID Ankle/Foot Injury
Lingard MID Knee Injury
Carrick MID Ankle Inury
Rafael DEF Not Match Fit

paulbok

M!Ck^ wrote: »

I'm open to correction but exetor were in non league football and still got a draw against us at home in 2005. That was awful, remember watching it in the pub in back in college. The scoreline isn't everything.

2006 - 0-0 draw against conference side Burton Albion before winning 5-0

Irishcrx

Pro. F wrote: »

Other than Anderson, they looked like they were trying to me.



LVG has said that he's getting the players to think completely differently about how they pick their passes.

He should start by telling them that the ball should end up at the feet of a team mate..

magnumbud

NTMK wrote: »

heres our injury list atm

Johnstone GK Knock
Shaw DEF Hamstring Injury
Smalling DEF Groin Injury
Kagawa MID Concussion
Herrera MID Ankle/Foot Injury
Fellaini MID Ankle/Foot Injury
Lingard MID Knee Injury
Carrick MID Ankle Inury
Rafael DEF Not Match Fit

any idea how long these lads are out? i know shaw was a month but thats about 3 weeks ago now if not more

The Moldy Gowl

paulbok wrote: »

2006 - 0-0 draw against conference side Burton Albion before winning 5-0

Was Ronaldo and Saha and fletcher playing in that?

Maybe a few more?

Mikeyt086

My opinion on last nights performances:

De Gea - You're grand pal.
M.Keane - Not good enough. Lacks the composure of Blackett and panics on the ball.
Evans - Possibly his worst performance in a United shirt, and yet probably our best defender.
Vermijl - Did ok, worth keeping around for the reserves.
Janko - Poor. I've heard him described as the Valencia of the reserves, seems right, all pace and no brains.
James - Liked him on pre-season but he looked scared last night and didn't try anything.
Anderson - Like a bad joke at this stage. The exact 'type' of midfielder we need, just possibly the worst version of it.
Kagawa - Looks lost to be honest. Unlucky with the concussion, but despite my love for him it's time to #FreeShinji.
Powell - Has a serious shot on him and at least he tried, but his passing was awful. Needs a Prem loan imo.
Hernandez - Not good enough. Has to go while he still has some value.
Welbeck - Tried, but played poor, has to be kept around.

Januzaj - The first time I've been pissed off with Adnan, looked like he couldn't give a **** to me.
Pereira - Earned himself a chance with some positive play, unlucky mostly.
Wilson - I have some pretty lofty expectations of this kid, because every second of every time I've seen him I've been impressed.

advertsfox

magnumbud wrote: »

any idea how long these lads are out? i know shaw was a month but thats about 3 weeks ago now if not more

Shaw DEF Hamstring Injury - Expected back 13 Sep
Smalling DEF Groin Injury -75% chance of playing this week
Kagawa MID Concussion - Unknown
Herrera MID Ankle/Foot Injury - Expected back 30 Aug
Fellaini MID Ankle/Foot Injury - Expected back 30 Aug

NTMK

magnumbud wrote: »

any idea how long these lads are out? i know shaw was a month but thats about 3 weeks ago now if not more

shaw will be back middle of sep
Kagawa will miss burnley but should be back soon

nothing on the others

RayCun

Gowlasauras Rex wrote: »

Was Ronaldo and Saha and fletcher playing in that?

Maybe a few more?

Man Utd: Howard, Brown, Pique, Silvestre, Bardsley, O'Shea, Jones, Richardson, Solskjaer (Ronaldo 59), Saha, Rossi (Rooney 58).


The team that lost to York City at Old Trafford contained Giggs, Sharpe, Beckham, Irwin, Pallister, Parker, McClair, Phil Neville, and Bruce came on as a sub

dave_o_brien

So who are the "senior" players? To me, Utd has always been a team where the youth are given a chance alongside consummate senior pro's: Robson, Pallister, McClair, Hughes, Cantona, Keane, Stam, Giggs, Scholes, Blanc, etc. Rio benefitted hugely from having Blanc there; Giggs, Scholes, Beckham all came into squads with Bruce, Schmeichael, Irwin, etc. These guys were obviously great players, but more than that were excellent professionals who didn't need to be told what the standards were. Who do we have now like that?

The below is from Wikipedia:

1 Spain GK David de Gea
2 Brazil DF Rafael
3 England DF Luke Shaw
4 England DF Phil Jones
5 Argentina DF Marcos Rojo
6 Northern Ireland DF Jonny Evans
8 Spain MF Juan Mata
10 England FW Wayne Rooney (captain) SENIOR
11 Belgium MF Adnan Januzaj
12 England DF Chris Smalling
13 Denmark GK Anders Lindegaard
14 Mexico FW Javier Hernández
16 England MF Michael Carrick SENIOR
18 England MF Ashley Young
19 England FW Danny Welbeck
20 Netherlands FW Robin van Persie SENIOR
21 Spain MF Ander Herrera
22 England MF Nick Powell
23 England MF Tom Cleverley
24 Scotland MF Darren Fletcher (vice-captain) SENIOR
No. Position Player
25 Ecuador MF Antonio Valencia
26 Japan MF Shinji Kagawa
28 Brazil MF Anderson
29 England FW Wilfried Zaha
30 Uruguay DF Guillermo Varela
31 Belgium MF Marouane Fellaini
34 Wales FW Tom Lawrence
35 England MF Jesse Lingard
36 Belgium DF Marnick Vermijl
37 Switzerland DF Saidy Janko
38 England DF Michael Keane
40 England GK Ben Amos
41 England DF Reece James
42 England DF Tyler Blackett
44 Brazil MF Andreas Pereira
48 England FW Will Keane
49 England FW James Wilson
50 England GK Sam Johnstone
— Argentina MF Ángel Di María

I've picked out four, of whom Fletcher is one. Questionable whether or not he's at a level to take that burden. Guys like De Gea, Mata, Di Maria, Rojo and Jones need to grow into this role. I have little faith in Raf, Smalling or Shaw (at least this season) becoming standard bearers, and don't believe Young, Valencia, Cleverley, Kagawa or Fellaini can up their game and grow into these positions, but I do believe they can contribute to the squad. Then there's a lot of youth, and the likes of Anderson and Chico.

Van Gaal is a huge signing, but in the position he is in, it will take months to have an impact. There seems to be a lack of "seniority" on the pitch.

Maximus Alexander

Pro. F wrote: »

It's not bang on, because if you confuse and poorly organise any team (to say nothing of a group of players that aren't really a team) then they can lose to anybody.

If LVG can't get a regular first team playing in a well organised manner after a full pre-season, then there was no way that a thrown together collection of players were going to do play in a way that properly reflected their abilities.

See if it was a scrappy 1-0 defeat I'd agree with you, but there should be enough talent, leadership and determination in any United side to avoid getting absolutely hockeyed by MK Dons. 'The system' is no excuse for some of the embarrassing errors, poor passing and lack of wherewithal that we saw last night.

The likes of Evans, Hernandez, Anderson and Welbeck should have been taking that game by the scruff of the neck and giving the younger lads an opportunity to show what they can do. Instead, they were arguably the worst performers on the pitch.

It highlights for me the complete lack of depth at the club, despite the fact that there are plenty of players available. There are too many players at the club who are not close to the standard they should be at, to the point that even the first eleven still has players in it that many would argue are barely good enough as backup options.

NTMK

NTMK wrote: »

shaw will be back middle of sep
Kagawa will miss burnley but should be back soon

nothing on the others

Any update on the status of his concussion? Haven't heard anything since the match update last night.

homerjay2005

would a short term, experienced defender coming in for 1 year be acceptable to you all now? it could help the young lads and bring a bit of confidence.

Blanc obviously was the extreme end of the "experienced" scale but surely there is a solid defender out there available for low cost that we can get in for 1 year to steady the ship.

of course if shouldnt have come to that and we should have signed a top class defender, but we didnt....need to look at other options now.

Maximus Alexander

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

See if it was a scrappy 1-0 defeat I'd agree with you, but there should be enough talent, leadership and determination in any United side to avoid getting absolutely hockeyed by MK Dons. 'The system' is no excuse for some of the embarrassing errors, poor passing and lack of wherewithal that we saw last night.

The likes of Evans, Hernandez, Anderson and Welbeck should have been taking that game by the scruff of the neck and giving the younger lads an opportunity to show what they can do. Instead, they were arguably the worst performers on the pitch.

It highlights for me the complete lack of depth at the club, despite the fact that there are plenty of players available. There are too many players at the club who are not close to the standard they should be at, to the point that even the first eleven still has players in it that many would argue are barely good enough as backup options.

LVG has a week to wield the axe and make a statement that mediocrity is not acceptable at the club. It should force the other players that he decides to keep to cop the **** on. For two long passengers like Anderson have been allowed to potter around like there in a holiday camp, back when even Fergie was in charge. It's infectious, even Januzaj got off light last night in relation to criticism. He was playing like he couldn't give two ****s what happened.

With seniors in the squad what kind of example does that set for the youth players.

titan18

Pro. F wrote: »

Youth products progressing into the first team is a rare thing at all the top PL clubs.

Not really, and Chelsea and City have come from a much lower standard as they're only recently rich and were able to put their resources into their youth academy then

RayCun wrote: »

name the last good player to come through the Chelsea youth system. The City youth system. The Liverpool youth system. The Spurs system.

Liverpool have Sterling. I'd kill for a player of his ability to come through the United academy again.

Chelsea and City started from a much lower base than us and have only recently started investing in their academies.

Arsenal have Wilshere, Sczesney and Gibbs in their current team.

Spurs academy is crap.

Everton have had Rooney, Rodwell and Barkley come through, and they've got Ledson in their youth team atm who's meant to be very promising.

Southampton have had plenty come through over the last 10 years.

Outside of the PL, Barcelona are obviously ridiculous with the talent they're bringing through, Bayern bring through a few players, and whilst Real don't really play any of theirs, they've managed to sell the likes of Morata for big money, or before with Negredo.

We can't even do what Chelsea and City do of just buying lots of young players and making money off them when they come good. Look at the money Chelsea got for De Bruyne, Lukaku and then Courtois coming back to them

TheDoc

Noticable last night was lack of anyone getting a bollocking.If I was playing CM in that team, woulda lashed team mates for that **** passing.Feels like mediocrity being accepted.

Spazdarn

Last night also shone a light on a distinct lack of leaders in the team.

Coat22

Mikeyt086 wrote: »

My opinion on last nights performances:

De Gea - You're grand pal.
M.Keane - Not good enough. Lacks the composure of Blackett and panics on the ball.
Evans - Possibly his worst performance in a United shirt, and yet probably our best defender.
Vermijl - Did ok, worth keeping around for the reserves.
Janko - Poor. I've heard him described as the Valencia of the reserves, seems right, all pace and no brains.
James - Liked him on pre-season but he looked scared last night and didn't try anything.
Anderson - Like a bad joke at this stage. The exact 'type' of midfielder we need, just possibly the worst version of it.
Kagawa - Looks lost to be honest. Unlucky with the concussion, but despite my love for him it's time to #FreeShinji.
Powell - Has a serious shot on him and at least he tried, but his passing was awful. Needs a Prem loan imo.
Hernandez - Not good enough. Has to go while he still has some value.
Welbeck - Tried, but played poor, has to be kept around.

Januzaj - The first time I've been pissed off with Adnan, looked like he couldn't give a **** to me.
Pereira - Earned himself a chance with some positive play, unlucky mostly.
Wilson - I have some pretty lofty expectations of this kid, because every second of every time I've seen him I've been impressed.

LOL - thought the exact same - looked like he thought he was above it

NTMK

M!Ck^ wrote: »

Any update on the status of his concussion? Haven't heard anything since the match update last night.

Reported as mild, from where i was i saw his nose was bleeding did he get caught on the nose?

titan18

titan18 wrote: »

Not really, and Chelsea and City have come from a much lower standard as they're only recently rich and were able to put their resources into their youth academy then



Liverpool have Sterling. I'd kill for a player of his ability to come through the United academy again.

Chelsea and City started from a much lower base than us and have only recently started investing in their academies.

Arsenal have Wilshere, Sczesney and Gibbs in their current team.

Spurs academy is crap.

Everton have had Rooney, Rodwell and Barkley come through, and they've got Ledson in their youth team atm who's meant to be very promising.

Southampton have had plenty come through over the last 10 years.

Outside of the PL, Barcelona are obviously ridiculous with the talent they're bringing through, Bayern bring through a few players, and whilst Real don't really play any of theirs, they've managed to sell the likes of Morata for big money, or before with Negredo.

We can't even do what Chelsea and City do of just buying lots of young players and making money off them when they come good. Look at the money Chelsea got for De Bruyne, Lukaku and then Courtois coming back to them

To add to that, I would like to know did Stones come through the youth system at Everton?

NTMK

NTMK wrote: »

Reported as mild, from where i was i saw his nose was bleeding did he get caught on the nose?

Jesus nose bleeds and concussion are awful to think about. Hopefully he's all good.

Ordinary man

TheDoc wrote: »

Noticable last night was lack of anyone getting a bollocking.If I was playing CM in that team, woulda lashed team mates for that **** passing.Feels like mediocrity being accepted.

It would be hard to find any player having a good enough game to be able to comment on anothers performance.

The Moldy Gowl

RayCun wrote: »

Man Utd: Howard, Brown, Pique, Silvestre, Bardsley, O'Shea, Jones, Richardson, Solskjaer (Ronaldo 59), Saha, Rossi (Rooney 58).


The team that lost to York City at Old Trafford contained Giggs, Sharpe, Beckham, Irwin, Pallister, Parker, McClair, Phil Neville, and Bruce came on as a sub

Have we had Jones 8 years?

Ya that was a pretty inexperienced side like last night so
Howard, O shea, Solskjaer, saha = De gea, Evans, chico,welbeck.

duffman13

homerjay2005 wrote: »

would a short term, experienced defender coming in for 1 year be acceptable to you all now? it could help the young lads and bring a bit of confidence.

Blanc obviously was the extreme end of the "experienced" scale but surely there is a solid defender out there available for low cost that we can get in for 1 year to steady the ship.

of course if shouldnt have come to that and we should have signed a top class defender, but we didnt....need to look at other options now.

Just throw 5 million at inter and see if they will give us back Vidic on a season long loan. I miss Vidic

Backstreet Moyes

I just can't get my head around this 3-5-2. Fair enough if Shaw and Rafael are fit they are perfect for the system. But Valencia, Young, James, Janko etc just are not good enough to play the system. I hope we go to 4-4-2 or something different this weekend.

ericzeking

Gowlasauras Rex wrote: »

Have we had Jones 8 years?

Ya that was a pretty inexperienced side like last night so
Howard, O shea, Solskjaer, saha = De gea, Evans, chico,welbeck.

That's David Jones

Backstreet Moyes

M!Ck^ wrote: »

To add to that, I would like to know did Stones come through the youth system at Everton?

NO

Nuts102

Nuts102 wrote: »

NO

Cheers, NM

Kunkka

homerjay2005 wrote: »

would a short term, experienced defender coming in for 1 year be acceptable to you all now? it could help the young lads and bring a bit of confidence.

Blanc obviously was the extreme end of the "experienced" scale but surely there is a solid defender out there available for low cost that we can get in for 1 year to steady the ship.

of course if shouldnt have come to that and we should have signed a top class defender, but we didnt....need to look at other options now.

Look no further

kryogen

Royal Irish wrote: »

Nothing really to wonder about. Not one single player who has featured in our first 3 games of the season would get a place in the first choice 11 of the top two favorites to win the league this season, Man Citeh and Chelsea.

Really? Not one. Ok so

RayCun

titan18 wrote: »

Liverpool have Sterling. I'd kill for a player of his ability to come through the United academy again.

Bought from QPR three years ago.

titan18 wrote: »

Chelsea and City started from a much lower base than us and have only recently started investing in their academies.

Its ten years since Chelsea won the lottery, and they were a top ten side before that, plenty of time for players to come through.

titan18 wrote: »

Arsenal have Wilshere, Sczesney and Gibbs in their current team.

Give you them, though Chesney was bought at 16

titan18 wrote: »

Spurs academy is crap.

titan18 wrote: »

Everton have had Rooney, Rodwell and Barkley come through, and they've got Ledson in their youth team atm who's meant to be very promising.

promising :rolleyes:

So of the teams in the top 6 last year, Arsenal have brought through 3 players and so have Everton.
United have brought through Evans, Welbeck, Cleverley. Wilson started last season, and Blackett and Lingard have both started for the first team this season.