Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - Mod Note in OP, 25/08

Billy86

Valmont wrote: »

Man Utd could buy Messi, Ronaldo, Xavi, Silva, Fabregas, and the best players in the world but they would still play ****e if it was still Tom 'don't pass to me' Cleverley in the middle pulling the strings. Seriously - when will he just drop down a division and spare us the bloody agony.

He was completely invisible last night, alright.

Fescue

TheDoc wrote: »

It's understandable for me.Majority of team play underage/reserve team football. Nowhere near as intense as Football League.

I don't think the result is the major concern, its the performance. As of yet there are no signs of improvement.

3 at the back is not a new concept. Steve Bruce uses it to great effect with lesser players. Many managers use it on occasion and make it work.

I don't understand why its so difficult to adapt to. Why it takes 3 months to learn.

homerjay2005

Fescue wrote: »

I don't think the result is the major concern, its the performance. As of yet there are no signs of improvement.

3 at the back is not a new concept. Steve Bruce uses it to great effect with lesser players. Many managers use it on occasion and make it work.

I don't understand why its so difficult to adapt to. Why it takes 3 months to learn.

i hope to god though the 3 at the back is gone once and for all after last night.

agains, small consolations in defeat if we move to a flat back 4 and some of those players never again are seen in the jersey.

RayCun

FitzShane wrote: »

(Sterling)When he was 15. And stayed playing academy football for 2 years before making his 1st team debut. Not as if he was bought as a 'ready-made' youth player, if that is even possible.

And Januzaj joined at 16 and played in the academy for over 2 years before his first team debut.

FitzShane wrote: »

So is it ok to count this player as coming though the academy, because he was bought at 16, but not Sterling at 15?

I was being nice :pac: Chesney was four years with Arsenal before his league debut I think...

FitzShane wrote: »

You're counting players like Blackett, Lingard, Wilson but fail to mention other clubs players, brought through academies and made more appearances than them players combined. very one dimensional view if you ask me :rolleyes:

You're right, I didn't go through every premier league club and list all the players for each team who have ever come through the academy.:rolleyes: The guy I was replying to came up with a list of names from other clubs, I came up with a list of names from United.

FitzShane wrote: »

I'll just mention that under Rodgers, Liverpool have fielded Kelly, - yep
Flanagan, - yep
Wisdom - sure
Suso, signed from Cadiz at 16/17
Teixeira signed from Sporting at 19
Sterling above
Ibe, signed from Wycombe, played for them in the league
Morgan - Europa league, sure
Yesil signed from Leverkusen at 18
Sinclair ten minutes in the league cup, yeah okay
Robinson, sure
Smith for 30 minutes, yeah
in competitive 1st team games, all while coming through (or playing for) the Liverpool academy also.

8 out of those 12 have played in the league too FYI.

kryogen

titan18 wrote: »

Bought when he was 15, and spent a few years in their youth system. So, their scouts and youth team doing a good job there.

Bought when he was 15 for a fee that could rise to £5million (paid 650k up front), hardly small money for a 15 year old? He made his first team debut while still 15

Claiming he is a youth product in the same vein as a Danny Welbeck is just wrong.

TheTownie

Don't see Utd getting another marquee signing. Hopefully they sign some players though. We're fúcked in CM and CB.

redbaron_99

Fescue wrote: »

I don't think the result is the major concern, its the performance. As of yet there are no signs of improvement.

3 at the back is not a new concept. Steve Bruce uses it to great effect with lesser players. Many managers use it on occasion and make it work.

I don't understand why its so difficult to adapt to. Why it takes 3 months to learn.

That team last night was a mix of youth team, squad players and a couple of misfits. So there could be no improvement as it's a different team to the one that played Swansea and Sunderland

On last nights game, we played quite well in the opening ten minutes. But the mistake by Evans seers to really unsettle the other two defenders. By the end they were a bag of nerves.

I don't have a high opinion of Evans. He is a nervous character who is always liable to make mistakes like he did last night. He made a very similar mistake against Liverpool in pre season that almost cost us a goal.
He should only be seen as a squad player IMO.

This weekend it will be a very different selection, and hopefully a very different result.

Spazdarn

Nastasic at City is for sale. Throw in a cheeky bid for him too

titan18

Pro. F wrote: »

Move the goal posts much?

Not really, I complained about our scouting in the post last night aswell. Januzaj is the only successful one we've had recently. Obviously Rossi and Pique were a small success in that we could sell them on (even if we probably should have kept Pique), but we've had Varela, Janko, Veseli etc recently who haven't been good.

They're bought at that age and come into the youth side. Januzaj happens to be rather special in that he only spent one season in it before he was starting for us. Usually, they're in the youth/reserve teams for a few seasons, and being loaned out before getting a chance. Takes both of the teams working together well to get those players to work out. Scouts need to identify the players talent, youth team has to get it out of them.

kryogen

TheTownie wrote: »

Don't see Utd getting another marquee signing. Hopefully they sign some players though. We're fúcked in CM and CB.

I am not as bothered about centre back, I think we will be ok there, either by the team switching to a 4 at the back system or the players adapting to the 3 at the back, it won't work with the likes of Keane though, I mean Jones, Evans, Rojo etc.

Midfield is trickier, I think we need a ready made player who will walk in and improve us massively in that department, not someone like Fellaini who has his uses and Herrera who could be world class but isn't right now.

Gonna be an interesting week

irishfeen

TheTownie wrote: »

Don't see Utd getting another marquee signing. Hopefully they sign some players though. We're fúcked in CM and CB.

Why not? .. It's certainly not money keeping us back and the dogs on the street know we need players.

titan18

kryogen wrote: »

Bought when he was 15 for a fee that could rise to £5million (paid 650k up front), hardly small money for a 15 year old? He made his first team debut while still 15

Claiming he is a youth product in the same vein as a Danny Welbeck is just wrong.

Sterling didn't make his senior debut with Liverpool until he was 17. That one when he was 15 was a crappy pre season game. He was 2 years at Liverpool before making the senior debut.



Amazed people think we've a good youth academy tbh. If producing Cleverley and Welbeck means we've a good youth academy, then I'd hate to see what having a bad one would be producing for us.

kryogen

titan18 wrote: »

Sterling didn't make his senior debut with Liverpool until he was 17. That one when he was 15 was a crappy pre season game. He was 2 years at Liverpool before making the senior debut.

A senior debut in a pre season game is still that, his competitive debut coming later doesn't change that he had played a first team game.

He was signed for a big transfer fee for a kid and as such can not be included in a conversation about bringing players through the academy. He was playing in the England team underage when Liverpool bought him and had spent almost 7 years with QPR.

TheTownie

kryogen wrote: »

I am not as bothered about centre back, I think we will be ok there, either by the team switching to a 4 at the back system or the players adapting to the 3 at the back, it won't work with the likes of Keane though, I mean Jones, Evans, Rojo etc.

Midfield is trickier, I think we need a ready made player who will walk in and improve us massively in that department, not someone like Fellaini who has his uses and Herrera who could be world class but isn't right now.

Gonna be an interesting week

IMO we don't have a leader/organiser at the back. Don't trust Evans to be that guy and to get the best out of Rojo at CB (if that is where he plays), he'll need someone with those attributes beside him.

bangkok

angel di maria, juan mata, robin van persie all play for man utd now....

still cant believe it. onwards and upwards. get shaw back into the team and we will have serious pace back in the team

TheDoc

bangkok wrote: »

angel di maria, juan mata, robin van persie all play for man utd now....

still cant believe it. onwards and upwards. get shaw back into the team and we will have serious pace back in the team

Problem is getting them ticking. Mata,RVP and Rooney axis hasn't really blossomed.

Leftist

bangkok wrote: »

angel di maria, juan mata, robin van persie all play for man utd now....

still cant believe it. onwards and upwards. get shaw back into the team and we will have serious pace back in the team

is the first part related to the second part?

because rvp and mata have no pace.

we desperately have to sign a midfielder in the next 4 days.

and that won't be happening.

homerjay2005

if we dont sign anymore players, what are peoples expectations now?

personally i still think its a battle for 4th unless we sign another top class midfielder.

we get Vidal and i think we could challenge for the title though the 5 point gap already could kill us in that respect.

Leroy42

Title is waaayyy out of our league (excuse the pun). Possible top 4, but it's not looking rosy. I think LVG will take another 6/8 games to get it settled down and by that time we could be so far behind that even a run to 4th will look difficult.

I do think that once it all gels, then we will start to pull them back, the question is how much gap develops in that time.

Citeh & Chelsea are too good, both the 1st 11 and squad depth, but Arsenal and 'Pool has big weaknesses which we will need to exploit.

Spurs & Everton, I don't see them having the staying power all season. But we are talking about a few points here and there being the difference. It's going to be a very tight and presssure season, but without the chance of a title at the end of it

Pro. F

titan18 wrote: »

Not really, I complained about our scouting in the post last night aswell. Januzaj is the only successful one we've had recently. Obviously Rossi and Pique were a small success in that we could sell them on (even if we probably should have kept Pique), but we've had Varela, Janko, Veseli etc recently who haven't been good.

They're bought at that age and come into the youth side. Januzaj happens to be rather special in that he only spent one season in it before he was starting for us. Usually, they're in the youth/reserve teams for a few seasons, and being loaned out before getting a chance. Takes both of the teams working together well to get those players to work out. Scouts need to identify the players talent, youth team has to get it out of them.

No, you started off only talking about youth players:

titan18 wrote: »

Name the last good youth player to come through to our first team? No one expects the likes of Scholes, Beckham, Giggs, Neville, Butt etc to all come through in one go again, but we've really had nothing come into the side.

titan18

Pro. F wrote: »

No, you started off only talking about youth players:

Our last night, when I'm talking about medical, scouting and youth.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=91923723&postcount=7103

RayCun

FitzShane wrote: »

I'll just mention that under Rodgers, Liverpool have fielded Kelly, Flanagan, Wisdom, Suso, Teixeira, Sterling, Ibe, Morgan, Yesil, Sinclair, Robinson, Smith in competitive 1st team games, all while coming through (or playing for) the Liverpool academy also.

For the record, in that period, United fielded the following homegrown players
Jonny Evans
Ryan Giggs
Danny welbeck
Paul Scholes
Tom Cleverley
Darren Fletcher
Ryan Tunnicliffe
Michael keane
James Wilson
Tom Lawrence
Andreas Perriera
Tyler Blackett


(not counting a few who joined at 16/17)

TheDoc

I think top 4 needs to be the expectation.Liverpool likely candidate to slip out. City,Chelsea,Arsenal,MUFC is my prediction.

irishfeen

homerjay2005 wrote: »

if we dont sign anymore players, what are peoples expectations now?

personally i still think its a battle for 4th unless we sign another top class midfielder.

we get Vidal and i think we could challenge for the title though the 5 point gap already could kill us in that respect.

Either way (with or without Vidal) I think that league is still quiet a bit off - sign Vidal though and get a few back from injury and within 10 - 12 Pts of the champions will be very possible IMO ... Probably 3rd with a bit to spare.

Past30Now

irishfeen wrote: »

Either way (with or without Vidal) I think that league is still quiet a bit off - sign Vidal though and get a few back from injury and within 10 - 12 Pts of the champions will be very possible IMO ... Probably 3rd with a bit to spare.

And would that be considered a success? After last years calamity it probably would be. Throw in a good cup run, i.e. Semi Final, plus qualification for the CL and I'd be relatively happy.

bangkok

Leftist wrote: »

is the first part related to the second part?

because rvp and mata have no pace.

we desperately have to sign a midfielder in the next 4 days.

and that won't be happening.

no but shaw and di maria offer loads of pace, it will put teams on the back foot giving mata more room to operate and plenty of good crosses for both rooney and rvp.

I think we will be adding at least 1 more player before the deadline

irishfeen

Past30Now wrote: »

And would that be considered a success? After last years calamity it probably would be. Throw in a good cup run, i.e. Semi Final, plus qualification for the CL and I'd be relatively happy.

Delighted with that - we would certainly be going in the right direction again and re-building for future success - Champions League Qualification is the absolute top priority.

Kerrydude1981

If LVG can get things sorted out at the back and decide which formation suits the players that he has to use,then with the attacking talents of Di Maria,Mata,Rooney and RVP,then 4th place should be well with in reach

Hopefully though he will be able to get in another CM and and an experienced CB who will hopefully settle the back 3 or back 4 down a bit.

Lucas Hood

One positive to take from last night is we can fully concentrate on the league now till January when we enter the FA cup.

adox

homerjay2005 wrote: »

if we dont sign anymore players, what are peoples expectations now?

personally i still think its a battle for 4th unless we sign another top class midfielder.

we get Vidal and i think we could challenge for the title though the 5 point gap already could kill us in that respect.

If there are no more additions I reckon we will end up 5th or 6th.

thelad95

This is a transitionary season and I'm going to look on it as such. The dust has settled on last nights result and it doesn't really matter. We put out a reserve XI some players looked out of their depth, others looked like they didn't give a f*ck and thats what lead to the humiliation.

If somebody had told me in the summer of 2012 that Di Maria, Mata and RVP would be on the United team in 2 years I would've laughed in their face yet here we are. These are the dark days but we are building a serious team and have a world class coach. The future is bright.

yermandan

Great read re: di Maria from Graham Hunter

blog.paddypower.com/2014/08/26/graham-hunter-what-manchester-united-fans-should-know-about-the-signing-of-angel-di-maria?AFF_ID=16562

MagicIRL

Watching LvG being interviewed here: http://balls.ie/football/video-louis-van-gaals-post-match-interview-propaganda-masterpiece/

Love the man. I hope (and I believe he will) be given the time to actually rebuild the team from the ground up. There are signs already that things will be great IF the right players are brought in.

Lord TSC

Its going to be hard to judge our final position before seeing DiMaria, Shaw and play, seeing Herrera play for more than 60 minutes, seeing RVP play with Mata and Rooney for longer than 60 minutes, and seeing how quick some players come back from injury.

The fact our four new first team signings haven't played more than a combined 60 minutes together means it's hard to know if we're going to be unbeatable or a flop again.

As far as last night goes, I'm not going to let it change my views of our league chances either; the only person who is a definite first teamer who played last night was De Gea. A large chunk of the other players will not get near our first team again I think....

newballsplease

thelad95 wrote: »

This is a transitionary season and I'm going to look on it as such. The dust has settled on last nights result and it doesn't really matter. We put out a reserve XI some players looked out of their depth, others looked like they didn't give a f*ck and thats what lead to the humiliation.

If somebody had told me in the summer of 2012 that Di Maria, Mata and RVP would be on the United team in 2 years I would've laughed in their face yet here we are. These are the dark days but we are building a serious team and have a world class coach. The future is bright.

If utd cant qualify for champions league this year.... Its a serious serious problem.
Thinking Liverpools decline from the 80s

Backstreet Moyes

I don't think it can be done over night but a rebuild is in order 4th this season would be good enough imo. We just need to buy quality and phase out the deadwood. Look at Chelsea how they dropped out of the Champions league and rebuilt with real quality and look at the squad now.

Adding Shaw, Herrera, Di Maria is a huge step in the right direction. It's exactly what is needed players who slot into the first 11. Adding Vidal would be massive also. I would be happy with Blind and De Jong. Then next summer adding the likes of Strootman and other top players puts us in a good position to challenge for the league.

Blind and De Jong are a step up on what we have if not world class. Then next season get rid of the likes of Cleverley and Fletcher and bring in quality and have the likes of Blind and De Jong be squad players.

A club like United should be trying to bring in one or two quality players each season. Unfortunately the last few seasons we have spent big money on squad players who are now first choice and are not good enough to be.

RobertKK

TheDoc wrote: »

Problem is getting them ticking. Mata,RVP and Rooney axis hasn't really blossomed.

Well they have been like a flower wanting to blossom but the leaves have greenfly and the roots are suffering from an infection.

With a 4-3-3, the roots might be more secure, with the new signings in midfield the Cleverley greenfly might be sprayed with pesticide and the team will blossom as a unit.

Pro. F

titan18 wrote: »

Our last night, when I'm talking about medical, scouting and youth.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=91923723&postcount=7103

You are moving the goal posts in this conversation. In response to my defending our youth system you said: "Name the last good youth player to come through to our first team?" And since we've gone on to show that youth products only come through rarely at all the top PL clubs we can say that that particular point of yours has been refuted.

If you want to talk about scouting players in their middle teens, then I think a club who signed Pique, Rossi, Pogba and Januzaj aren't doing too poorly there either.

Whether we are getting as much money from selling them as we should is not something I'd be terribly worried about. I'd rather the club put their efforts into signing and developing the best players and teams rather than farming kids to sell on.

RayCun

Past30Now wrote: »

And would that be considered a success? After last years calamity it probably would be. Throw in a good cup run, i.e. Semi Final, plus qualification for the CL and I'd be relatively happy.

If the team have the same mediocre form from autumn to spring and get into 4th because no-one else is even mediocre - not really a success.
If the team are stop start for the next couple of months, but start playing well together and get fourth by beating some good teams along the way, and we're set up for next year - yes, would be happy

dave_o_brien

Di Maria on leaving Madrid:

"The only thing I asked for (from Madrid contractually) is something that would be fair. There are many things that I value and many of them have nothing to do with my salary.

I hope to progress at Manchester United, one of the biggest clubs in the world, where I wish to make history.

It is impossible to capture all I have lived through in a few lines, but I want this letter to communicate what I feel at the moment of parting.

In these four years I had the honour to wear this (real's) shirt I feel nothing but pride for what I went through and achieved along with my team-mates.

I want to apologise for the times I was wrong, on or off the pitch. I sweated for this shirt in every game as if it was my last. There were times when things went for me and others not, but what I can say is that I always gave everything."


More people with this level of dedication, please.

Pro. F

bangkok wrote: »

no but shaw and di maria offer loads of pace, it will put teams on the back foot giving mata more room to operate and plenty of good crosses for both rooney and rvp.

I think we will be adding at least 1 more player before the deadline

A fast full-back and central midfielder are not going to stretch an opposition defence, you need pace in the forwards to do that.

RobertKK

newballsplease wrote: »

If utd cant qualify for champions league this year.... Its a serious serious problem.
Thinking Liverpools decline from the 80s

Liverpool doesn't have the finances that United have.

But I think United will qualify for the CL after a slow start and when things settle down.
More signings to come, and less and less of TC23 and we should do alright.

Backstreet Moyes

Pro. F wrote: »

A fast full-back and central midfielder are not going to stretch an opposition defence, you need pace in the forwards to do that.

Fairly evident when Wellbeck was introduced the weekend it was when we started to look lively.

redbaron_99

Pro. F wrote: »

A fast full-back and central midfielder are not going to stretch an opposition defence, you need pace in the forwards to do that.

The way to stretch the opposition is to move the ball fast. It can move faster than any player.

D-FENS

dave_o_brien wrote: »

So who are the "senior" players?

I've picked out four, of whom Fletcher is one. Questionable whether or not he's at a level to take that burden. Guys like De Gea, Mata, Di Maria, Rojo and Jones need to grow into this role.

In today’s modern game,at 26, with 3/4 years La Liga experience, 3 successful years at Chelsea and several years around a dominating Spanish team set up, I would definitely class Mata as a senior player.
He’s clearly a mature minded individual anyway and I think he’s become well established for someone only at OT for 8 months.

Di Maria comes to us with a similar CV, excluding the PL experience. If he adapts to the league like we all hope he will, they will both be cornerstones of the team by the end of the season.

Billy86

Lord TSC wrote: »

As far as last night goes, I'm not going to let it change my views of our league chances either; the only person who is a definite first teamer who played last night was De Gea. A large chunk of the other players will not get near our first team again I think....

Evans as well, and he was absolutely brutal. That said it doesn't reflect on him as a player, he had probably his worst ever senior competitive game (not just for us, but ever) which can happen, and did at times with both Ferdinand and Vidic. The one worry for me is that is kind of reasserted a worry I have had with Evans for a while now... Like Fletcher and kind of like Carrick (though he has done ok beside dross more often, mainly due to sheer experience of it) he is good at holding his own and not being a liability, but not good enough to compensate for the short fallings of those around him, whereas a Rio Ferdinand for example was very capable of making his partners weaknesses.

Basically I am happy with him in the first team obviously, but don't have faith in him to be a one man show back there even against weaker teams.

kstand

Nuts102 wrote: »

Fairly evident when Wellbeck was introduced the weekend it was when we started to look lively.

Lively to an extent, but inevitably toothless which is a byword for Danny Welbecks general performances.

geeksauce

homerjay2005 wrote: »

if we dont sign anymore players, what are peoples expectations now?

personally i still think its a battle for 4th unless we sign another top class midfielder.

we get Vidal and i think we could challenge for the title though the 5 point gap already could kill us in that respect.

I would take 4th right now, back in the Champions League and then a platform to build for next year, I think this year is about steadying the ship and getting CL football again.

There is no way United will even come close to challenging for the league this season, comparing Cities and Chelseas squad to Utds is scary at the minute. City brought Aguero off the bench the other night (I know he was just back from injury) then followed with Jesus Navas, both players would stroll into the Utd starting 11 nowadays

Backstreet Moyes

kstand wrote: »

Lively to an extent, but inevitably toothless which is a byword for Danny Welbecks general performances.

Yes but people need service on the weekend just like last night when our strikers receive the ball they are stuck with there back to goal with little movement around them. The fact is when Wellbeck came on we stretched them and opened them up more.

Rayne Wooney

Aguero missed almost half of City's league games last year, and Negredo and Dzeko aren't blessed with pace. It's all about getting the ball to Rooney and RVP in shooting positions rather than lumping the ball towards them in the box

I'd rather see 433 though I think

...............DDG.............
Raf..Jones..Evans..Shaw
.......Herrera...Carrick.....
Januzaj....Mata.....Di Maria
...........Rooney/RVP........


The CBs are still dodgy, I don't know much about Rojo so didn't feel right putting him in. I'd take Vlaar in there tbh. Vidal in midfield and you're laughing