Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - Mod Note in OP, 25/08

bangkok

TheDoc wrote: »

Statistics perform part of the narrative, not THE narrative. how many goals did he score against top six sides last season?

how many goals did suarez score against top 6 last season?????? :rolleyes:

Coat22

shrewdness wrote: »

Of all the comments about Welbeck here this is one of the most bizarre I have to say. He's been an England regular for a few years now and has done quite well for them, what makes you think he wasn't going to be in the squad? Can you name many better striker options? Rooney and Sturridge obviously but Welbeck is always going to be there after that.

The Welbeck dislike never fails to amuse me. He's no RVP and not good enough to lead the line for Man Utd in the long-term(i.e not world class) but name a better option for 3rd choice, as that's what he is. He is versatile too and I'd have Hernandez gone well before him. I couldn't blame him for wanting to leave as naturally he wants to play up front regularly, but in terms of getting rid of deadwood and trimming the squad, there'd be plenty I'd shift out before him. Given a long run as the main striker for a decent club, I've no doubt he'd be a good goalscorer. Not saying he'd be as good as him, but Sturridge going to Liverpool has given him a new leash of life and I could see something similar if Welbeck moves. In fact if he did go to Arsenal I think he'd do well with the supply he'd get, so no way should we consider that. He's still young so for people to write him off altogether is a bit premature.

I think the issue people have with Wellbeck is the same as that they have with Cleverly and (for me at least) Evans

These 3 are decent footballers but they have failed to progress to a level required of a Manchester United player. Wellbeck and Cleveryly are what? 23/24? If they were going to make it they would be showing signs by now and they haven’t. Neither has progressed in the past 3 years. Maybe some of that was down to Ferguson and last years disaster and that’s unfortunate but that’s the way it is now – they won’t cut it at this level and should move for their own sake.

I would much rather United take a punt Wilson and have Mata, Januzaj and DM to utilise up front if injuries push them into it this season assuming Chico is gone (also needs to move on for his sake)

ericzeking

TheDoc wrote: »

It's really tough this week as I feel I've a lot to say.

I obviously missed some challenge laid at the Docs feet to post more conscisely....? I'm guessing it was bothering someone for some reason...have they no access to twitter?

The world is truelly focked when someone is being criticized for actually putting a bit of effort and thought into what they say about a subject.

There's way too much oneliner BS on this forum.

Don't pander to the ignorant masses Doc...

Kylo Ren

TheDoc wrote: »

It's really tough this week as I feel I've a lot to say.

Why are you doing it and how long for?

I made a joke on your 'long' posts but I think you should post in whatever way you want.

Your Airbag

From Balague

XA decission 2 leave Madrid took club by surprise. MUFC approached him few weeks ago and agent and club answered, He's 100% staying.

https://twitter.com/GuillemBalague/status/504921525183844352




If true, and I stress if, at least UTD were looking for more MF players weeks back and this late push is not a desperation thing.

Keno

Keno wrote: »

Why are you doing it and how long for?

I made a joke on your 'long' posts but I think you should post in whatever way you want.

He's got until deadline day. Priced @ 10/1

ericzeking

ericzeking wrote: »

I obviously missed some challenge laid at the Docs feet to post more conscisely....? I'm guessing it was bothering someone for some reason...have they no access to twitter?

The world is truelly focked when someone is being criticized for actually putting a bit of effort and thought into what they say about a subject.

There's way too much oneliner BS on this forum.

Don't pander to the ignorant masses Doc...

It's just a bit of craic. Although I will call out Pro F because he was winging :pac:

UnitedIrishman

TheDoc wrote: »

http://www.soccerbase.com/players/player.sd?player_id=48971&season_id=143

Wellbeck Goals scored last season. One goal against side in top six. 13 in 46 appearances. 1 Assist. No stat for sitters missed.

Would you rather he didn't get into position for those so called sitters?

Also talk about skewing the stats for your narrative. Doesn't explain where he played.

As bangkok said, against the top four last year Suarez didn't score a goal last year.

Welbeck owes us nothing, he's a local lad that came at no cost to us. He works his bollocks off every time he plays for us. You talk about big games - against Real Madrid he scored in the first leg and marked Xabi Alonso out of it in the second leg which led to us looking likely to go through - only for the terrible Nani sending off. Against Bayern last season he scored a perfectly good goal only to be ruled out for a high foot. In my opinion, our standard of play improves with him in the side because he's one of our only pacey players who can play one and two touch passes in our attack. I'm not saying he's Leo Messi, but he's a lad in the tradition of United who deserves to be kept and play his part.

kryogen

TheDoc wrote: »

The speed of an attack has no bearing on the fact he is a terrible finisher. Don't see him doing damage unless he improves a drastic amount

He isn't a terrible finisher, he is instinctive. When given too much time to think he can make a balls of it, like a lot of strikers, but when its fast and flowing and when he has not had much time to dwell on where he is going to put the ball he has been pretty good.

The speed of an attack has plenty of bearing on what kind of chances the striker will get.

The_Kew_Tour

Be great if we got Carvalho done and dusted.

I think we will get this chap. Be nice if we got Vidal too

And Ronaldo

And Messi....;)

bangkok

UnitedIrishman wrote: »

Would you rather he didn't get into position for those so called sitters?

Also talk about skewing the stats for your narrative. Doesn't explain where he played.

As bangkok said, against the top four last year Suarez didn't score a goal last year.

Welbeck owes us nothing, he's a local lad that came at no cost to us. He works his bollocks off every time he plays for us. You talk about big games - against Real Madrid he scored in the first leg and marked Xabi Alonso out of it in the second leg which led to us looking likely to go through - only for the terrible Nani sending off. Against Bayern last season he scored a perfectly good goal only to be ruled out for a high foot. In my opinion, our standard of play improves with him in the side because he's one of our only pacey players who can play one and two touch passes in our attack. I'm not saying he's Leo Messi, but he's a lad in the tradition of United who deserves to be kept and play his part.

great post, and don't forget the games against city and Liverpool away when he was man of the match on both occasions including scoring a cracker against city. Pep Guardiola even name checked welbeck last season when united played Bayern saying he was one of their players he would be looking out for


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3tWVf9LmUc

heres the goal for another viewing

beno619

TheDoc wrote: »

But scored 20+ goals to help us reach the title. Wellbeck hardly endearing himself missing sitter after sitter.

Yeah tough to do on the wing or cam but let's be honest you already know all this.

When Welbeck has played up front his return is up there with the best in the league, but we really are rehashing an old debate.

tossy

Your Airbag wrote: »

From Balague






https://twitter.com/GuillemBalague/status/504921525183844352




If true, and I stress if, at least UTD were looking for more MF players weeks back and this late push is not a desperation thing.

He was 100% not going to Man united is what that reads as lol, i wouldn't be i jumping for joy if we had managed to sign him, he is done IMO.

Your Airbag

kryogen wrote: »

He isn't a terrible finisher, he is instinctive. When given too much time to think he can make a balls of it, like a lot of strikers, but when its fast and flowing and when he has not had much time to dwell on where he is going to put the ball he has been pretty good.

The speed of an attack has plenty of bearing on what kind of chances the striker will get.

He missed sitters against Everton and Southampton at OT last season. Headed an open goal off the crossbar iirc.

I have a soft spot for him and as nice as the above is its excuse making really. He can be shocking in front of goal at times. Having more time should make it easier for him if he had composure.

I'm not sure if I want him gone though. I'm indifferent to him atm.

The_Kew_Tour

If we were to play a more high pressing and aggressive style Welbeck would be immense.

That's why Pep rates him imo.

MagicIRL

Alonso wouldn't sign after playing for Liverpool. He still holds the club in high regard. At least United are trying to get in talent!

Tom.D.BJJ

Danny's a hard worker for the team, and always gives his all. Going forward i don't see him getting much game time, so the time is right now for the club to move him on.

Tom.D.BJJ

The Alonso move is a strange one. I dont see him getting very much game time for Bayern, and he would have featured less and less for Madrid this season anyway. It might mean Madrid will hang on to Khedira now though

Your Airbag

tossy wrote: »

He was 100% not going to Man united is what that reads as lol, i wouldn't be i jumping for joy if we had managed to sign him, he is done IMO.

Of course, being ex-liverpool means he was never going to come. Why I posted that is because if true it shows we were in the market for more MFs weeks back and not the desperation brought on by bad results situation people think is going on.

Positive movements from the club.

Alonos is getting on but still is quality and has another good season left in him.

Billy86

cdb wrote: »

`
Disagree on the Vlaar bit, thought he looked very solid at the WC, something that is clearly lacking at the moment. Whether that was down to LVG working his magic or the Dutch midfield offering greater protection, (probably a combination of both) I thought he had a great tournament and would be very confident he could be a first choice at Utd.

Very unlikely we'll move for him but you never know - he would be an excellent addition and relatively inexpensive.

That's exactly my point though - Phil Babbel and El Hadji Doug both had excellent WCs prior to their high profile signings to Liverpool without having proven much otherwise, and we all saw how those turned out. There are plenty more examples of players doing great at a WC and the nfading back into mediocrity afterwards (it is the biggest 3-7 games of their careers after all).

II don't think he would be a disaster but I don't think he would have any real impact, or consider him an upgrade over our 4 senior cbs at this point (and I would rather see Blackett be allowed develop as well, limited time of course but I've been very impressed with him so far). If one of our cbs went down over the weekend to a mwdium/long term injury, I wouldn't be completely against going for him for a low price of 5-7mn pounds as he knows Louis' system and all... But he turns 30 in February, and up until June what had he done in his career to merit a spot at a club like Man Utd?

Your Airbag

Tom.D.BJJ wrote: »

The Alonso move is a strange one. I dont see him getting very much game time for Bayern, and he would have featured less and less for Madrid this season anyway. It might mean Madrid will hang on to Khedira now though

I've heard the transfer fee will be somewhere between 5-10m with the player getting a 10m a year salary. Not to shabby for a last payday move. He is a good replacement for Martinez.

Nalz

TheDoc wrote: »

It's really tough this week as I feel I've a lot to say.

I miss you banging off the keyboard in work.
I always knew to expect a Doc boards update:):p

beno619

TheDoc wrote: »

Statistics perform part of the narrative, not THE narrative. how many goals did he score against top six sides last season?

How many games did Welbeck start up front against the top 6 ?

How many goals did RVP score against the top 6 ?

Your a good poster but some of your points against Welbeck are bizarre to say the least.

It's fair enough you don't fancy him but he's proved he can score and has been man of the match in big European games vs Madrid and Bayern.

Lucas Hood

Tom.D.BJJ wrote: »

The Alonso move is a strange one. I dont see him getting very much game time for Bayern, and he would have featured less and less for Madrid this season anyway. It might mean Madrid will hang on to Khedira now though

He'll fit in perfectly there imo. Martinez out for most of the season.

Your Airbag

beno619 wrote: »

How many games did Welbeck start up front against the top 6 ?

How many goals did RVP score against the top 6 ?

Your a good poster but some of your points against Welbeck are bizarre to say the least.

It's fair enough you don't fancy him but he's proved he can score and has been man of the match in big European games vs Madrid and Bayern.

One swallow doesn't make a summer. He has been shcking in games against poor opposition too. A sample size of his best two games is not an accurate reflection.

He is one of those "could go either way" players right now imo. Could kick it up a gear or this might be all we can expect. Give him another season might be the best option.

TheDoc

Keno wrote: »

Why are you doing it and how long for?

I made a joke on your 'long' posts but I think you should post in whatever way you want.

Doing it for the week until Friday 5:30. Its just a challenge/laugh. Took no grief/offense

Billy86

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

If we were to play a more high pressing and aggressive style Welbeck would be immense.

That's why Pep rates him imo.

Exactly... people ignore the system and how a player is used far too often. Let's not forget that Sturridge scored 5 league goals in 21 games for City, and 13 in 63 league games for Chelsea before moving to Liverpool where he has 32 goals in 45 league games at present.

Also re Alonso... kind of surprising that so many people want Carrick gone in part because of his age, but also want us to sign Alonso... who is four months younger?

TheDoc

I've no beef with Wellbeck. Has good attributes. To make it as top 4 striker need to be clinical/ruthless finisher.

geeksauce

Don't think I would sell Welbeck now I think he should be kept for another season at least, I am not his biggest fan but I do think he has the ability to change a game when coming off the bench. He will never bang in goals for fun though which I suppose you could argue is the main objective for a striker, he had a decent run in the team last season when RVP was chilling back in Holland and he didn't do a whole lot really.

I wouldn't be too worried about holding onto him for another season though he will get game time and will play a part in the season, if he was to go who would come in his place? He would certainly have to be replaced but then you are buying someone and asking them to sit on the bench for large parts of the season which is unlikely to happen.

TheDoc

Billy86 wrote: »

Also re Alonso... kind of surprising that so many people want Carrick gone in part because of his age, but also want us to sign Alonso... who is four months younger?

Age isn't issue with Carrick IMO. Its playstyle and speed. Alonso courageous and launches attack from deep.

UnitedIrishman

TheDoc wrote: »

Age isn't issue with Carrick IMO. Its playstyle and speed. Alonso courageous and launches attack from deep.

I think we'll see the same from Carrick if he returns to fitness because he had the issue last season of dropping further and further back because of the deep defensive line and then looking up to see his midfield partners running away from him. He will work better with players like Di Maria and Herrera who want the ball in tight situations. Of course we need to be planning ahead for when he finishes all the same.

Professional Griefer

TheDoc wrote: »

I've no beef with Wellbeck. Has good attributes. To make it as top 4 striker need to be clinical/ruthless finisher.

Yep, remember Sturridge before he went to Liverpool, not many rated him. Welbeck isn't as good as Sturridge was then, he'd want to start improving, he can't remain in the squad while putting in poor performances for much longer. Look at how long it took Chelsea to get a decent striker in, Arsenal also need one atm. When Rooney and RVP finish we'll have to replace them which could be really difficult.

beno619

Your Airbag wrote: »

One swallow doesn't make a summer. He has been shcking in games against poor opposition too. A sample size of his best two games is not an accurate reflection.

This could be applied to numerous world class players in our squad. Particularly in the past 12 months.

RE the England squad.

They will miss Carrick hugely but Roy has an opportunity to build a decent team without having to shoehorn Lampard or Gerrard into the side.

Backstreet Moyes

Your Airbag wrote: »

He missed sitters against Everton and Southampton at OT last season. Headed an open goal off the crossbar iirc.

I have a soft spot for him and as nice as the above is its excuse making really. He can be shocking in front of goal at times. Having more time should make it easier for him if he had composure.

I'm not sure if I want him gone though. I'm indifferent to him atm.

I also remember RVP missing and open goal and a volley about 5 yards out against Olympiakos in a 2-0 defeat that nearly sent us out of the Champions League.

Billy86

TheDoc wrote: »

Age isn't issue with Carrick IMO. Its playstyle and speed. Alonso courageous and launches attack from deep.

A lot of people have said their main worry with him is being on the downside though, as he went 33in July, which Alonso turns in November. Carrick job under Ferguson was to do exactly as he did, hence being the best CM in the league for Fergies last year here.

Wouldn't be completely opposed to Alonso of course, but I would rather Vidal obviously, Carvalho also, de Jong as he fits what we need and Van Gaal's style of play better, or possibly Blind due to age and versatility. If all falls through though he would be a grand last-day-desperate-flurry type of pickup, a bit like Vlaar, only older but also better at his role.

DARK-KNIGHT

Would love to see us sign carvalho and a cb and in January sign Strootman. ..

Maximus Alexander

Professional Griefer wrote: »

Yep, remember Sturridge before he went to Liverpool, not many rated him. Welbeck isn't as good as Sturridge was then, he'd want to start improving, he can't remain in the squad while putting in poor performances for much longer. Look at how long it took Chelsea to get a decent striker in, Arsenal also need one atm. When Rooney and RVP finish we'll have to replace them which could be really difficult.

Oddly enough this is the exact reason I'd rather he was kept. At 23 there's a decent chance he'll still improve and, at his best, he already offers something.

In a year or two when RVP starts to slow down and probably pick up even more injuries, we could have a situation where the midfield crisis of the last few years is replaced by a striker crisis, and in that situation I'd rather have Welbeck than not.

Billy86

Nuts102 wrote: »

I also remember RVP missing and open goal and a volley about 5 yards out against Olympiakos in a 2-0 defeat that nearly sent us out of the Champions League.

Shush Shush now, let's not talk about that!

DARK-KNIGHT

The tags here always amuse me...

#feartheoranjerevolution...

Your Airbag

Nuts102 wrote: »

I also remember RVP missing and open goal and a volley about 5 yards out against Olympiakos in a 2-0 defeat that nearly sent us out of the Champions League.

Yes because RVP hasn't gone on to be prolific thereafter?

Again thats why you don't take a sample size of one, I said Everton and Southampton and that Welbeck has been poor in other games.

redbaron_99

bbc reporting that official bids have been made for chico. Valencia and Juventus said to be the clubs.

case885

Nuts102 wrote: »

I also remember RVP missing and open goal and a volley about 5 yards out against Olympiakos in a 2-0 defeat that nearly sent us out of the Champions League.

And he scored the hat trick in the 2nd leg to put us through, questioning van persies finishing is ridiculous. Basing on that performance in the 1st leg would you have started welbeck in the 2nd? Doubt he would have scored a hat trick.

limpdd

DARK-KNIGHT wrote: »

Would love to see us sign carvalho and a cb and in January sign Strootman. ..

Can't imagine they'll be too eager to sell him in January.

Backstreet Moyes

Your Airbag wrote: »

Yes because RVP hasn't gone on to be prolific thereafter?

Again thats why you don't take a sample size of one, I said Everton and Southampton and that Welbeck has been poor in other games.

Has Wellbeck been given the chance to go on to be prolific. He has never got a run up front except last season when he scored 8 in 9 despite having little or no service.

You brought up a sample size of two so i thought of a game off my head where RVP messed up. So when i say RVP has been poor in other games it means my small sample size can be used like your sample size of two can be used.

Headshot

redbaron_99 wrote: »

bbc reporting that official bids have been made for chico. Valencia and Juventus said to be the clubs.

Surely if Chico goes to Juve, we can do a deal for Vidal.

redbaron_99

There is also this... I hope to God this is BS. If there's any truth in it, my suspicions of there being a collection of bad eggs in the squad will be confirmed, and could well explain what we've seen on the pitch in the first three games.

http://www.givemesport.com/498467-louis-van-gaal-struggling-to-convince-manchester-united-players?autoplay=on

Backstreet Moyes

case885 wrote: »

And he scored the hat trick in the 2nd leg to put us through, questioning van persies finishing is ridiculous. Basing on that performance in the 1st leg would you have started welbeck in the 2nd? Doubt he would have scored a hat trick.

What he done in the 2nd leg has no relevance to the point. The discussion is about missing sitters and that's a prime example of RVP missing sitters in a game that nearly cost us.

Blatter

David McDonnell of the Mirror (another journo that gets briefed by the club imo) is saying that we're trying to sign Vidal on a pay as you play deal, where he would earn a basic salary plus more whenever he plays while Juve will get a lesser fee initially but more on top when he plays a certain number of times.

It fits in with the stories that he is still a target but his knee injury is causing the club concern.

Backstreet Moyes

Headshot wrote: »

Surely if Chico goes to Juve, we can do a deal for Vidal.

They want Chico we want Vidal. If they refuse to sell us Vidal we tell them to piss off.

Billy86

Your Airbag wrote: »

Yes because RVP hasn't gone on to be prolific thereafter?

Again thats why you don't take a sample size of one, I said Everton and Southampton and that Welbeck has been poor in other games.

RVP 2005/06, age 22: 24 league games, 5 goals.

Danny Welbeck, 2013/14, age 22/23: 25 league games, 9 goals.

One of these played on a team that got to CL final, the other played for a team that were in such a shambles they went from Champions to a national laughing stock within half a season.

Players tend to get better as they get deeper into their 20s, especially at things like composure in front of goal...